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Music Rights Now - Helping to Protect Intellectual Property Online

Started by Bart Elliott, June 28, 2011, 05:11 PM

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Bart Elliott

Last year, I told you about an organization,  http://www.musicrightsnow.org/]Music Rights Now , that is engaged in the fight against online music theft.

In January, a new Congress convened and the legislative process began again. Fortunately, building on the momentum generated last year, a bipartisan group of legislators recently introduced S. 968; a bill giving the Justice Department the authority to seek a federal court order to seize a domain name used by a website engaged in criminal piracy or counterfeiting. Under the bill the Court would also issue an order to intermediaries -- such as ISPs, payment processors, Internet registries, advertisers, etc. -- prohibiting them from doing business with such criminal operations.

If you'd like to help again, please click  http://www.capwiz.com/musicrightsnow/issues/alert/?alertid=46372526&type=CO&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_content=http%3a%2f%2fwww.capwiz.com%2fmusicrightsnow%2fissues%2falert%2f%3falertid%3d46372526%26type%3dCO&utm_campaign=17528358&utm_umg_et=112320578]HERE  to send an e-mail to your Senators and Representative to ask that they support this innovative legislation. Take the time to ask your colleagues and friends to send a message as well. It's easy to make an impact - just enter your home address and click "send."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHno8SGpTGw#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHno8SGpTGw#ws


Chris Whitten

Is that a new video?
Thumbs up from me.  :)

Bob Pettit

There is a lot of unauthorized material on youtube, which I find very handy. Most is low quality as far as sound and video is concerned, but gives a taste of a band or song and I may end up buying the CD/DVD for myself if I like it. Granted, in the old days I bought a lot of stuff I listened to only once, so the artist got paid.

I hope any changes to the law addresses this, that like radio we can check stuff out stuff first before we buy.

It would be a dis-service if sites such as youtube were shutdown. Does thi new law have some sort of licensing agreement that will address this?

..

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Bob Pettit (bongo) on June 29, 2011, 07:52 AM
There is a lot of unauthorized material on youtube, which I find very handy. Most is low quality as far as sound and video is concerned, but gives a taste of a band or song and I may end up buying the CD/DVD for myself if I like it. Granted, in the old days I bought a lot of stuff I listened to only once, so the artist got paid.

I hope any changes to the law addresses this, that like radio we can check stuff out stuff first before we buy.

It would be a dis-service if sites such as youtube were shutdown. Does the new law have some sort of licensing agreement that will address this?

It's a FAR greater disservice to artists who don't get paid for the use of their creative works (ie. music, video). The last thing I'm personally worried about is helping the consumer. First, protect those who are making the product, then focus on how to get it to the masses.

There are already licensed entities in place that allow you to check out a product before you make a purchase (eg.  http://www.amazon.com/?&tag=drummercafe-20&camp=211041&creative=374005&linkCode=qs1&adid=1HNA3XE49YM8DW3SW87W&]Amazon.com ).

The main focus of this law is going to be sites that allow for illegal sharing of music; breaking copyright. After that, focusing on sites that allow for indirect sharing (like YouTube) ... making sure that they have licenses in place and/or deal with those who break copyright by removing the content.


Quote from: Chris Whitten on June 28, 2011, 11:55 PM
Is that a new video?
Thumbs up from me.  :)

Not a new video, Chris. I shared this on Drummer Cafe TV over a year ago, and wanted to share that again here on the forum.  ;D

Chris Whitten

+1 the above.
Free internet radio, where you can pretty much customize the content, is fairly widespread now.
There is also free, official material on YouTube. Google (owners of YouTube) just need to make a lot more deals with content providers. I believe they are working through this, but it takes time.

Tony

Such a sticky topic.

It would be a disservice to shut down sites such as You Tube. These sights do not exist to perpetrate copyright violations, it is a by product of their nature. I can remember plugging a cassette into the boom box and taping my favorite songs on the Sunday Morning Countdown when I was a kid. Is this much different? Did the radio commit intellectual property theft or did I? I recently watched a  video on You Tube set to a Radiohead song I was unfamiliar with. I ended up buying 3 Radiohead CD's from Itunes later that week. There are positives and negatives to both sides of the coin but You Tube isn't going anywhere, that's for sure.

Policing is needed on these sights, maybe a licensing solution similar to the ASCAP/BMI club license, etc. However, copyright infringment and theft of intellectual property has been going on since man started banging on stetched skins with bones and drawing on cave walls in France. Besides, there are only 13 notes in Western music, so technically, most of what is being written today is some form of plagarism since the number of note combinations are finite.

I don't condone outright theft or illegal downloading of songs, albums, etc. But history has shown that the problem is not going away and it is not new to the digital age. Yet thousands of people make a living in the music business every year. No industry is perfect and most have issue that unfairly (in the workers mind) effect profit. They deal with it and adapt, while working on viable solutions that often use compromise. The music business can do the same thing.

Bart Elliott

I don't think there's been any discussion about shutting down sites like YouTube, although that is always assumed ... basically since that's the site most people know about and use.

YouTube is doing their part to assist with the law and copyright. The sites that allow users to share files, or download illegal copies ... that's the main focus.

It's good, in a way, that people assume that this is about YouTube. That means their not partaking of the sites that are really causing problems.  ;D

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Tony on July 13, 2011, 08:36 AM

It would be a disservice to shut down sites such as You Tube.

Zero chance of that, as Bart rightly points out.

QuoteNo industry is perfect and most have issue that unfairly (in the workers mind) effect profit. They deal with it and adapt, while working on viable solutions that often use compromise. The music business can do the same thing.

I don't think creative people should have to adapt to blatant illegality.
In other ways creative people always do adapt, and are often early adopters of new technologies and innovation.
The copyright infringement problem isn't one of new technology, but technology's use in an unlawful (I'm afraid IMO - selfish) way.

Tony

I don't think anyone should have to adapt to blatant illegality be it related to work or not. But it's intersting that you differentiate "creative people". My personal belief is that "creative people" think that their "intellectual property" is somehow worth more or deserves special treatment. I certainly can understand, I think everyone feels their work product is special.

My only real point is that I recognize theft is a problem in all businesses, especially one that mass produces any product. I personally just don't think that the music business is any different. In fact, they have been quite succesful in combating copyright infrigement which sort of does make them special.

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Tony on July 19, 2011, 10:18 AM
My personal belief is that "creative people" think that their "intellectual property" is somehow worth more or deserves special treatment. I certainly can understand, I think everyone feels their work product is special.

My only real point is that I recognize theft is a problem in all businesses, especially one that mass produces any product. I personally just don't think that the music business is any different. In fact, they have been quite successful in combating copyright infringement which sort of does make them special.

Yeah, I completely disagree with all of that.

When you are in the music industry and see what goes on behind the scenes, it's very different picture than what the general public perceives.

The entertainment industry is very different from other industries. Not only does the general public believe it should be free, but almost every art form can be digitized, which makes the thievery all the more easier.

We have members right here on this forum who have spent thousands of dollars on creating/recording a music CD, only to have it be immediately available online, in it's entirety, for free. There's no other industry, other than perhaps software and information related industries, that suffer as much as the fine arts (ie. creative people).

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Tony on July 19, 2011, 10:18 AM
I don't think anyone should have to adapt to blatant illegality be it related to work or not. But it's intersting that you differentiate "creative people".

Basically, the originators of all intellectual property are creative people. Creative people design bridges, develop iPads, make cymbals, create dining experiences, make clothes and landscape our parks.
For several hundred years now, society has understood that there is no motivation to innovate, if you allow non-innovators to copy someone else's hard work the first day they see the fruits of that hard work. In the final washup, it's society's loss if 'creativity' is not valued and rewarded. And in the music business you're 90% likely to be self employed and self funded - for example, like Bart creating, maintaining and paying for the Drummer Cafe. How about you open Tony's Cafe and copy a lot of the text from here, including videos, reviews and tutorials? How much do you think Bart would be motivated to continue while someone else was freeloading off his hard work?

As to your points about other business -
The best research we have (across many surveys and studies) is that music piracy sits at about 20% of all consumed music.
Techheads claim it's less, the music industry claims it's a lot more.
Let's be very conservative and say 10%.
The current official figures for stock loss (shoplifting and employee pilfering) on the American main street is 1.7%.
Have you noticed all those closed circuit tv cameras, tag alarms at store exits, store detectives, regular and aggressive prosecutions of shoplifters? In contrast it's highly likely that if music piracy was down at 1.7% we wouldn't even be discussing it.

Tim van de Ven

Quote from: Chris Whitten on July 19, 2011, 05:24 PM
Basically, the originators of all intellectual property are creative people. Creative people design bridges, develop iPads, make cymbals, create dining experiences, make clothes and landscape our parks.
For several hundred years now, society has understood that there is no motivation to innovate, if you allow non-innovators to copy someone else's hard work the first day they see the fruits of that hard work. In the final washup, it's society's loss if 'creativity' is not valued and rewarded. And in the music business you're 90% likely to be self employed and self funded - for example, like Bart creating, maintaining and paying for the Drummer Cafe. How about you open Tony's Cafe and copy a lot of the text from here, including videos, reviews and tutorials? How much do you think Bart would be motivated to continue while someone else was freeloading off his hard work?

As to your points about other business -
The best research we have (across many surveys and studies) is that music piracy sits at about 20% of all consumed music.
Techheads claim it's less, the music industry claims it's a lot more.
Let's be very conservative and say 10%.
The current official figures for stock loss (shoplifting and employee pilfering) on the American main street is 1.7%.
Have you noticed all those closed circuit tv cameras, tag alarms at store exits, store detectives, regular and aggressive prosecutions of shoplifters? In contrast it's highly likely that if music piracy was down at 1.7% we wouldn't even be discussing it.

A big plus one on Chris' comments (and Bart's as well).

I firmly believe that my intellectual property has value, monetarily and artistically. I've had music that I've written (and performed) that was placed into commercials, cinema and in theatre; should I have simply given way my work? Not in a million years!

I deserve (as do other artists) to receive fair recompense for my efforts. I don't deserve to have my efforts appear on Torrent Streams so that people that are too cheap to pay 99 cents for it can steal it. Neither do any artists, for that manner. 


Tony

Thanks for your insights. As it it seems to always be pointed out, I am an outsider to the music business, only claiming my income from studio ownership (10 years) and playing semi professionaly for 20 years as part time income, but I am no outsider no fraud and theft of intellectual property. I venture to say that I am probably the only person hear who has actually taken part in a prosecution of an indvidual for theft of intellectual property. (on multiple ocassions).

QuoteI deserve (as do other artists) to receive fair recompense for my efforts. I don't deserve to have my efforts appear on Torrent Streams so that people that are too cheap to pay 99 cents for it can steal it. Neither do any artists, for that manner. 

Everyone deserves to be compensated for their work efforts and no one deserves to be stolen from. I have never disputed this point and have vainly tried to make sure that I supported this view. I just don't think "creative people" should get special treatment over their "intellectual property".

QuoteBasically, the originators of all intellectual property are creative people. Creative people design bridges, develop iPads, make cymbals, create dining experiences, make clothes and landscape our parks.

I sort of agree. While these people make up a part of the intellectual property field, the bulk of what is legally defined as intellectual property are research grants, University academic publishings, and government and corporate research work product, the bulk of which is not relesed to the general public. The property is very rarely owned by the computer tech who developed the technology to make the I-pad or the civil engineer that designed the bridge, it belongs to his company or government that he works for. The real issue with the theft of intellectual property rights happens long before I steal a web site idea that has been running for 10 years. IP theft is a real problem when Coldplay hears an unknown band play a song in a club and that band hears their main riff come on the radio 3 month later on the new Coldplay single. It's when a designer sees the dress ideas he sketched out appear at K-mart 2 weeks before his show because an intern snapped some pics of his sketch book and sold them 6 months earlier. It's when a University professor lies about his research figures to extend his multi-million dollar grant.

When your song is illegally downloaded it's pretty much like it got shoplifted. And I applaud the music industry in their efforts to keep this from happening.

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Tony on August 08, 2011, 07:59 AM
Thanks for your insights. As it it seems to always be pointed out, I am an outsider to the music business, only claiming my income from studio ownership (10 years) and playing semi professional for 20 years as part time income, but I am no outsider no fraud and theft of intellectual property. I venture to say that I am probably the only person hear who has actually taken part in a prosecution of an individual for theft of intellectual property. (on multiple occasions).

Everyone deserves to be compensated for their work efforts and no one deserves to be stolen from. I have never disputed this point and have vainly tried to make sure that I supported this view. I just don't think "creative people" should get special treatment over their "intellectual property".

I sort of agree. While these people make up a part of the intellectual property field, the bulk of what is legally defined as intellectual property are research grants, University academic publishings, and government and corporate research work product, the bulk of which is not released to the general public. The property is very rarely owned by the computer tech who developed the technology to make the I-pad or the civil engineer that designed the bridge, it belongs to his company or government that he works for. The real issue with the theft of intellectual property rights happens long before I steal a web site idea that has been running for 10 years. IP theft is a real problem when Coldplay hears an unknown band play a song in a club and that band hears their main riff come on the radio 3 month later on the new Coldplay single. It's when a designer sees the dress ideas he sketched out appear at K-mart 2 weeks before his show because an intern snapped some pics of his sketch book and sold them 6 months earlier. It's when a University professor lies about his research figures to extend his multi-million dollar grant.

I don't understand why you seem to think that by making something known, such as the crime that is going on, or wanting to see laws upheld is some how "special treatment."  Sounds like you have an axe to grind with "creative people" in that you perceive they think they are unique or more special than anyone else. Personally, I've never suggested such craziness, nor have I read that from anyone here.

"Creative people" is everyone that you mentioned in your scenario, Tony. It's not just fine arts, but anyone who creates or invents something. You're talking about deeper issues, which obviously are just as important and need to be addressed.

So ... just because crime is happening elsewhere, or at a deeper level, big or small, doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about what's going on and how it's affecting us. I personally that the crimes within the entertainment industry have been neglected and overlooked; less energy and attention being given to the issues.

Lastly, Tony ... I've never singled or pointed you out as being an "outsider in the music business."  All of my comments are directed to anyone and everyone with whom they fit or apply. My quoting you doesn't mean that my response is directed AT you specifically; I'll use your name when speaking to you directly, like I am now.  8)

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Tony on August 08, 2011, 07:59 AM
I am probably the only person hear who has actually taken part in a prosecution of an indvidual for theft of intellectual property. (on multiple ocassions).


Possibly.
I got involved with Ebay when a seller was reformatting one of my music products, burning it onto a DVDR and selling it.
It took a few months of repeated official takedown notices to Ebay before they finally acted, all the while the seller was completing sales successfully.
If I google one of my products, I get more search results pointing me to illegal download sites, than results pointing me to legal retail sites. I'm not personally involved in prosecution because the product is essentially owned by a parent company (Toontrack) and all their product line is aggressively targeted by 'thieves'.

Tony

Thanks again for all of your insight. Like I said, I applaud the industry for taking great efforts in bringing this problem to light and combating the offense.

Bart, thanks for pointing out that your comments weren't directed at me. I may have taken some of your comments directly to heart since I was the only one who seemed to be taking the position that caused your response. As for creative people, in fairness I used this term because others in the discussion have used it to designate a different set of people within the work force in society. I was simply adapting to their chosen terms so there wasn't any confusion. Quite honestly, the entire topic went sideways when I said that theft happens in all aspects of business and industry and that the music business is no different. I also pointed out that I found it interesting that some people chose to differentiate between creative people and everyone else. This seemed to touch a nerve with a few people and led to some posts explaining why the music business is different and why creative people are so important in society and the need to properly compensate them lest they stop providing their wares. I personally disagree with this and believe that people will always look to be creative and innovative, monetary reward aside.

Lastly, I respectfully disagree that crimes in the entertainment industry are overlooked and under enforced. Any "axe to grind" feelings you may detect could come from the other perspective. I actually worked on the enforcement side of the fence. The entertainment industry is one of the only areas that employ their own force of investigators and inspectors that make referrals to local and Federal law enforcement and also serve to bolster civil legal proceedings against those who are responsible for distributing and manufacturing "pirated" material. I have personally investigated copyright infringement and theft of intellectual property cases and in the big picture of crime, illegal downloads are simply not a big deal. But that is not to say that it isn't important, especially to those here who make their living in the industry. The sad reality is that we live in a society where we are cutting school budgets, slashing "entitlement" programs and the richest members in our society continue to enjoy tax cuts the rest of us haven't enjoyed.  Combating illegal piracy in a cash rich industry is not a priority. And IMHO that's ok because the music industry has great programs to educate people to the wrongs of this type of behavior and more importantly, they have the resources to do so. They pay their attorneys a tremendous amount of money to monitor and combat sites that encourage this type of behavior. I could write a separate essay on how diverting Government resources to combat this problem for one of the richest industries (entertainment) in the world is morally wrong with all the other issues we need to address, but then I would I would be getting political.  So if it comes across as having a bit of a chip on the shoulder about the whole issue, it is simply for the same reason you folks have your perspective; it's the sum of my experiences. I have had budgets slashed and manpower cut and still had to cater to entertainment execs that skew numbers and attribute every dollar lost in the music business as the result of piracy without any consideration to unemployment, lowered earning potential and general malaise within the economy. Chris said the numbers are 20% on a conservative basis. Funny, that seems to be the about the total revenue losses within the US music retail sales figures each year since 2000. Is it really all because of theft?

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Tony on August 10, 2011, 10:13 AM
This seemed to touch a nerve with a few people and led to some posts explaining why the music business is different and why creative people are so important in society and the need to properly compensate them lest they stop providing their wares. I personally disagree with this and believe that people will always look to be creative and innovative, monetary reward aside.

I strongly disagree.
Some people will always want to nurse the sick, others will feel strongly motivated to join the armed forces and defend their country. In those cases we constantly debate the correct monetary reward, often agreeing that it isn't enough. You don't find many saying "whatever, they'll nurse anyway".
I think there's a provable human connection between life choices made and reward/lifestyle.
Who enjoys the better lifestyle, the ballet dancer or the business executive, the lacrosse player or the NFL linebacker?
That's why there are few who pursue ballet and lacrosse as full time careers, while millions study for a business degree, and there's intense competition between an endless tide of young men hoping for a career in football.
As musicians we hope to nurture and protect a scene we are passionate about. No future in music, and talented creative people will turn to video production, or script writing. That's a huge loss to the field of music if it happens, and I'm not willing to risk it based on the shakey theory that creative people will always create, even if it's much harder to earn a living, buy a house and raise a family by doing so.

QuoteCombating illegal piracy in a cash rich industry is not a priority.

Maybe if you were a full time musician you'd realise the vast majority of musicians aren't cash rich.
The sad reality is that the cash rich sector of the industry is not feeling the strain of piracy as much as the majority. Beyonce makes a huge amount of money from perfume sales, Jay-Z clothing and underwear?, Paul McCartney from touring for the umpteenth time. The record company execs get their meal allowance and gold watch when they retire whether music has been pirated or not.
I think most of us who are fighting piracy are fighting it on behalf of the ordinary working musicians, indie bands, struggling singer/songwriters, self releasers.
I have a friend who writes, records and releases his own music. He has NO support other than the money he can make himself. Due to the rampant pirating of digital music he hit on a strategy of printing up 1000 copies of 'limited edition' vinyl, but has unfortunately found that even then someone will buy the vinyl, copy it to mp3 and make it available illegally to anyone else who wants the music.

So before you criticize me, which I think you were, you may want to get away from the music corporations and wealthy executives, and experience life as a real, working musician.

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Tony on August 10, 2011, 10:13 AM
Chris said the numbers are 20% on a conservative basis. Funny, that seems to be the about the total revenue losses within the US music retail sales figures each year since 2000. Is it really all because of theft?

Here is a very recent article which I think puts everything in a balanced perspectiuve.
The figures are all over the place actually, a few percentage up, a few down, but you can see which parts of the music industry are doing ok and which aren't:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/04/uk-music-industry-revenue-falls]http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/aug/04/uk-music-industry-revenue-falls

Mister Acrolite

Amen to what Chris said. So many people operate with a skewed sense of what musicians make. There's no middle class in music. You're either a household name or you're starving. And this unrealistic and blase attitude about royalties/compensation helps keep things that way.

When it comes to the arts, our culture is rapidly becoming one of sheer consumption, based on the assumption that there will always be somebody producing something more for them to consume - and now they want it to be free.

Sorry, but homey don't play that. I want to be compensated for my work, whether I'm flipping burgers, playing drums, or writing marketing copy. When you work, you should get paid. Otherwise, why bother? It's not only not financially viable for you; it also makes you feel like crap to see that people think your work is worth nothing. And that isn't very inspiring.

Tim van de Ven

Chris and Keith have hit the proverbial nail on it's proverbial head.

When you are an artist, it's either outhouse or castle; there is no middle class.

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Tim van de Ven on August 11, 2011, 10:38 AM
Chris and Keith have hit the proverbial nail on it's proverbial head.

When you are an artist, it's either outhouse or castle; there is no middle class.

Agreed!

I do understand Tony's perspective. He's in law enforcement and has dealt with this topic quite a bit. But my perspective (and others) is coming from being in the entertainment industry, full-time, for over 30 years.

What Chris and Keith have pointed out, and what I was "trying" to point out, is that there's a lot of crime going on ... and it's not all about the big dogs and how they are affected. I'm 'small potatoes' in the music biz, so any blow I receive through theft or not being compensated is HUGE! I'm self-employed in every sense of the word ... and my business is small revenue ... just enough to get by, and only because of God's blessing.

I'm going to say this again ... anything that can be duplicated digitally is going to be hit far harder than anything else. All of the fine arts fit into this category, including music, film, dance, books, etc. The masses seem to view the entertainment industry as part of their entitlement, so they have no problem stealing it or taking it without paying for it. They view walking into a store and taking something without paying for it as shoplifting (aka stealing), but not so with digital products that can be shared, copied/duplicated, and transferred about with the simple push of a button.

Just a side note: let's make sure WE are not guilty of doing the very same thing with other individual's creative property. It's not right for us to complain if we in turn are doing the very same thing. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Tim van de Ven

Agree on all points, Bart; especially the last one. I sadly know of a few "musicians" and even a real studio that use cracked software or pull songs and movies from torrent feeds.


Chris Whitten

Quote from: Bart Elliott on August 11, 2011, 11:56 AM
I'm 'small potatoes' in the music biz, so any blow I receive through theft or not being compensated is HUGE! I'm self-employed in every sense of the word ... and my business is small revenue ... just enough to get by, and only because of God's blessing.


Yes, this is exactly what I've been trying to express.

If Joe Schmo decides to set up his own website about drums, and copies a lot of Bart's content, there is no 'cash rich' industry to defend Bart's intellectual property. He effectively can't call in law enforcement, or rely on anti-bootlegging organisations to intervene and put the situation right.
Tony is right in that respect, there are bigger fish to fry. But apart from being outrageous (IMO) we need to put in place some kind of deterrent that stops the casual pirate from considering copying  Drummer Cafe content and posting around the web. If not, people like Bart will take this place down and we all lose out. I really worry about this attitude that creative people will still create. Maybe Bart will funnel his creativity to his own drumming and his garden etc.... and again, we all lose out.
The internet is pretty lawless at the moment. Actually there are quite a few laws already in place, but people have understood they can currently do what they like and rarely get caught. If people want to enjoy new music, and enjoy visiting forums like Drummer Cafe, they'd better get serious about stopping content theft around the web.
As usual it's the minority (sadly still several million people) who are taking advantage, and they will spoil a lot of great resources for the rest of us.

NY Frank

Quote from: Tim van de Ven on August 11, 2011, 12:44 PM
Agree on all points, Bart; especially the last one. I sadly know of a few "musicians" and even a real studio that use cracked software or pull songs and movies from torrent feeds.

How about a lawyer and later - judge - who I once had an argument with about what he was doing with that stack of blank CDs.     

People have an unlimited capacity to create their own personal realities and laws.  Even people who spent their life upholding the law.

Tony

I have 2 responses, sorry. The first is mostly for Chris:

It's comments like this that lead me to think that I'm being told that I'm not an "insider' so I don't have the right to make opposing comments
QuoteMaybe if you were a full time musician you'd realise the vast majority of musicians aren't cash rich.  So before you criticize me, which I think you were, you may want to get away from the music corporations and wealthy executives, and experience life as a real, working musician

I wasn't criticizing you Chris, I was referring to your statements in the context of the discussion, which I disagreed with.

First off, I said that the entertainment industry was cash rich and to deny this is ludicrous. It's the number 1 industry in the world. Maybe you should be asking why they people who create the product are treated so poorly by the executives and corporations. I realize that most musicians aren't cash rich. How do I know this? you may ask:

I have experienced life as a real live working musician. I represent the vast majority of people in the music business, club players. Try to take this with a grain of salt Chrisso, but you are the exception, not the rule. You are easily the most successful musicians on this sight and have played with true greats in the business. You make a viable living from the music business and have played on stadium tours, top songs and with music royalty. You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live. You represent a small aspect of the industry. You are the proverbial NFL linebacker you referenced earlier.  While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians? The majority of the people who make up the business are players who have to work at other jobs (bartending, working in music stores, etc) to make ends meet. If you need to reaffirm this, just look at the make up of this sight; thousands of musicians, with only a small percentage who work full time in the industry. I went to college on a music scholarship and gigged throughout school to pay bills. I played and mini-toured with a corporate show band an average of 3 days a week for 10 years while I was an active police officer often working 80 hour weeks between the 2.  I also continue to play in small club and wedding bands as I have since I was 16 years old.  I won't bother to list the credits of film, television or musical projects that the studio I co-owned for 10 years worked on but they include actors, directors and musicians who are household names. Many of the "full time" musicians that that I have worked with have to multi task to make a living, including working outside the business. I realized at an early age that trying to support myself and my family as a musician was a bad career choice for me. But it doesn't deter me from pursuing my art as a creative person and making a welcome additional income. I have worked as hard at music as anything else in my life and I am ok with my rewards for my effort. I also realize that my positive attitude is exceptional. I'm lucky in the opportunities presented to me and how I have chosen to work within the business.

To be dismissive of what I have to say because I don't have your experience or meet your standards for being a member of the music business lessens your credibility IMO; no one here has your experience dude, its exceptional. I have always respected your point of view even if I didn't agree with it.

Tony

Just a final thought or two if you guys don't mind (BTW I am recently retired from Law Enforcement).

1. I don't condone or in any way think that the illegal downloading is ok. Along the way in this discussion it gets lost that I am a musician and I suffer from the same issues, although not on the same scale that some of you may.

2. I don't agree with this statement at all:
QuoteYou don't find many saying "whatever, they'll nurse anyway".
simply because I have seen the exact opposite on a daily basis. People all over the world do jobs like nursing, teaching and law enforcement without fair compensation. I went the final 6 years of my police career taking an overall 8% cut in pay as the cost of living increased by about 8% which amounts to about a 15% cut in pay. This is the norm all over this country in the "people services" business and yet these people continue to come to work day in and day out and do a thankless job despite their poor compensation. It's amazing to me that the people most responsible for our children's growth (teachers) are some of the poorest paid members of the work force, yet they keep coming to work everyday.

3. The overall problem with combating piracy is this:
QuoteSo many people operate with a skewed sense of what musicians make. There's no middle class in music. You're either a household name or you're starving. And this unrealistic and blase attitude about royalties/compensation helps keep things that way.

It's not unrealistic; the people who make these decisions understand this better than you do. I would venture that no one on this sight, Chris Whitten included (as he is probably the biggest victim of piracy here) has lost enough money to piracy to warrant the expense of conducting an enforcement operation. It cost more to combat the problem than what most of you are making, let alone losing. So it is an economic loss to pursue your economic loss. When you actually reach the level of loss that is significant enough to warrant enforcement, your victims are some of the richest people in the industry. An industry can't be a victim, individual people have to be.  Oftentimes their public persona's are such that they come across unsympathetic. It's hard for 12 people on a jury to relate to some entertainment big wig/performer losing more money than they collectively make in a year. It's even more difficult to get them on board when the poster children for the music industry continuously blow themselves up with drugs, alcohol, devil worship and the myriad of other issues (correct or not) that the public hears or sees on the news. Is this right? No, but it is reality. Ask any lawyer you know what the goal of a trial is. It isn't to pursue justice, it's to win. And if your case isn't a winner, it's not going to trial. Juries are fickle monsters and it only takes 1 of 12 to hang them up. Prosecutors are poorly paid lawyers, often the best of the best who do the job because they believe in it, not for money, which is less than half of what they would make if they were on the other side. The only thing that makes them feel good is winning. With the multitude of cases to choose from they will almost always pass on copyright cases because they are losers. (Not right, but reality)

I say all this to end with this: The entertainment industry employs a small army of ASCAP/BMI/MPAA investigators whose sole job is to collect evidence for lawsuits and criminal proceedings. I have worked with these people and they are great at what they do. Other than insurance there are no other investigators dedicated to fighting fraud within their industry like these folks. If you don't know who your local reps are for these groups then you should, especially if you live and work within music hubs like Nashville and make a living from publishing or performance royalties. If you are really serious about combating the problem then stop posting on music boards amongst people who almost wholly agree with you and volunteer in your community. (Not a jab at anyone, just a call to arms so to say!) These folks will give you educational materials and support to do it. Go to the local schools and reach the kids while they are young. Every teacher in this country will take a serious industry rep who wants to provide education to kids for free. Combine a drum circle with a short talk on the wrongs of illegal downloading. You can help an under funded school music program in the process. It's a win-win situation. If you don't step up and take action then don't expect the cash strapped Government to do it. The first step to reforming a broken process is to actively engage in change.

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 10:22 AMThe first step to reforming a broken process is to actively engage in change.

Isn't that what I'm doing here?

If we can get back to the original statement and post, I was encouraging people to be aware of how they can fight the problem.


  • Education: Learn how these crimes affect the musicians ("creative people") they love. Discussing it here and other boards lets novice to professionals know that these crimes are serious. Not everyone on the musician forums are professionals or even make a dime from music. Educating means others will hopefully see the light and begin to spread the word elsewhere.

  • Information: Telling people what they can do to take real action towards fighting the crime. Signing petitions may be a small thing, but it lets the government know that we are serious about the problem. The fact that the government is "strapped for cash" doesn't mean we shouldn't inform them of what we want or need them to do.


Tony, I think Chris, in his statement about being a "full-time musician", was simply suggesting that unless someone depends solely on the income derived from the music industry. I thought you had mentioned that you were part-time or semi-pro at one point ... which to me means that you were not relying 100% on your music career to provide for you. I think that's what Chris heard/read as well, and was addressing that in his statement.

I personally feel that some of the biggest crimes happen from within. Those in the music biz are stealing from others in the music biz, whether it be the corporation against individual as well as individual against individual.

Tim van de Ven

Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
I have 2 responses, sorry. The first is mostly for Chris:

It's comments like this that lead me to think that I'm being told that I'm not an "insider' so I don't have the right to make opposing comments 

I wasn't criticizing you Chris, I was referring to your statements in the context of the discussion, which I disagreed with.

First off, I said that the entertainment industry was cash rich and to deny this is ludicrous. It's the number 1 industry in the world. Maybe you should be asking why they people who create the product are treated so poorly by the executives and corporations. I realize that most musicians aren't cash rich. How do I know this? you may ask:


I believe that oil production might be a larger industry than the "entertainment industry".   At least British Petroleum doesn't have to worry about people copying and downloading their oil for free.

And to blame "executives and corporations" is similar to what pirates use to justify illegal downloads; "They're filthy stinking rich, so I feel vindicated in stealing from them"


Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
I have experienced life as a real live working musician. I represent the vast majority of people in the music business, club players. Try to take this with a grain of salt Chrisso, but you are the exception, not the rule. You are easily the most successful musicians on this sight and have played with true greats in the business. You make a viable living from the music business and have played on stadium tours, top songs and with music royalty. You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live. You represent a small aspect of the industry. You are the proverbial NFL linebacker you referenced earlier.  While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians? The majority of the people who make up the business are players who have to work at other jobs (bartending, working in music stores, etc) to make ends meet. If you need to reaffirm this, just look at the make up of this sight; thousands of musicians, with only a small percentage who work full time in the industry. I went to college on a music scholarship and gigged throughout school to pay bills. I played and mini-toured with a corporate show band an average of 3 days a week for 10 years while I was an active police officer often working 80 hour weeks between the 2.  I also continue to play in small club and wedding bands as I have since I was 16 years old.  I won't bother to list the credits of film, television or musical projects that the studio I co-owned for 10 years worked on but they include actors, directors and musicians who are household names. Many of the "full time" musicians that that I have worked with have to multi task to make a living, including working outside the business. I realized at an early age that trying to support myself and my family as a musician was a bad career choice for me. But it doesn't deter me from pursuing my art as a creative person and making a welcome additional income. I have worked as hard at music as anything else in my life and I am ok with my rewards for my effort. I also realize that my positive attitude is exceptional. I'm lucky in the opportunities presented to me and how I have chosen to work within the business.

To be dismissive of what I have to say because I don't have your experience or meet your standards for being a member of the music business lessens your credibility IMO; no one here has your experience dude, its exceptional. I have always respected your point of view even if I didn't agree with it.

I find it interesting that your lengthy paragraph, wherein you ask Chris to "take this with a grain of salt", that it appears to be an attack on Chris, much in the same way as your previous remark about "executives and corporations". So Chris lives where Chris lives and he's played with some of the biggest names in music; shouldn't he be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labours? You seem prepared to dismiss his arguments because he hasn't lived your reality. Chris is a tireless advocate of anti-piracy on this site and on others; you should applaud and support his efforts and not attack his lifestyle. Your final paragraph states that, "[you] have always respected your point of view" which to me clashes with what you've said; you can't hammer Chris over "living on a vineyard" and rip him for dealing with endorsement reps and then tell him you respect his point of view; that doesn't compute. You accused him of being dismissive, yet in your post, you essentially dismiss everything that he's said because he's been more successful.

As Bart said, let's bring this back to the piracy discussion and not turn this into "my world is tougher than your world" nonsense.

I'll make it easy: theft is theft whether you've stolen from a poor man, a small shop, McDonald's, RCA, Sony, BP or otherwise.

Chris Whitten

FWIW, 90% of my music career has been on the ground, in the trenches, working alongside people who need every last cent to pay their rent. My glamorous experiences amount to just over 4 years out of 30 years as a full time pro.

I don't want to go through Tony's post line by line, but I do feel some major misrepresentations are being put forth....
Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live.

It 'sounds' glamorous to anyone who has never owned a vineyard. It's actually farming..... like growing potatoes or wheat. It's back breaking work and you are at the bottom of the heap in terms of financial reward. I think you mistook me for Francis Ford Coppola..... I don't make wine.

Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
You represent a small aspect of the industry.

How do you know? So you're basing that on one or two high profile gigs from 20+ years ago?
My most recent regular gig drumming-wise is a pub, cover band. Loading in and setting up myself. Four hour set of varied cover songs. I think that places me right about in the middle of most Drummer Cafe member's current musical experiences.

Quote from: Tony on August 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians?

I can't remember saying that specifically. In fact I 'hooked up' with Cafe member Robyn and her husband at the Boulder show. I met and chatted with Cafe member 'Felix' at the Cincinnati show, I managed to get a ticket for Tim to attend the Osheaga Festival in Montreal when we played it on that tour.
I would never have used the phrase 'endorsement reps' because I don't have relationships with 'endorsement reps'. I have one or two relationships with 'people' who work for drum companies. The only relevant shows being LA, where I invited
the guys from DW, as I'd NEVER met them and thanked them personally for over 15 years support (hardware contract).
And the New York show, where I invited the family that are Noble & Cooley.
I obviously struck up a very personal relationship with Jay and Carol Jones (N&C), being their only drum kit endorser other than Denny Carmassi (Heart) in 1989/90. World Party had not scheduled a show in New England, so Jay and Carol were proposing to drive down to see me (4hr return trip) as we hadn't met in person for more than ten years.
So yes, I would have felt bad holding up Jay and Carol's return drive to Northern CT in the wee small hours of the morning, while I hooked up with an internet forum member.
I realise all this is completely beside the point though - the point being music piracy and how to deal with it.

Chris Whitten

Quote from: Bart Elliott on August 12, 2011, 11:47 AM

Tony, I think Chris, in his statement about being a "full-time musician", was simply suggesting that unless someone depends solely on the income derived from the music industry. I thought you had mentioned that you were part-time or semi-pro at one point ... which to me means that you were not relying 100% on your music career to provide for you. I think that's what Chris heard/read as well, and was addressing that in his statement.

Exactly right.
In short, I want more part time musicians to have the opportunity to enjoy a happy full time career in the music industry.
I know it's hard to succeed. What currently disturbs me is that pirates, who are society's 'takers' are creating an environment where the already difficult task of earning a living through your music is ever more difficult. That illegal behaviour is driving more talented musicians out of full time participation. And whichever way you look at it, that's bad in my opinion.

Chris Whitten


Tim van de Ven


NY Frank

Quote from: Chris Whitten on August 12, 2011, 04:52 PM
This is one of the best arguments against the 'big wigs', 'cash rich' angle in the piracy debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws

Wow.  Thanks for posting that.   I really, really enjoyed that.   He did some job with that.

Bart Elliott

Look at what is now happening to copyright infringing websites such as this one:

http://www.megaupload.com/]http://www.megaupload.com/

Tim van de Ven

Quote from: Bart Elliott on May 12, 2012, 08:05 AM
Look at what is now happening to copyright infringing websites such as this one:

http://www.megaupload.com/]http://www.megaupload.com/

That is a great start!

Tony

That video was entertaining. It must have been fun to poke holes in the arguments of a 4 year old.

Good for the Justice Department for shutting down megaupload.com

Just to clarify again, I am against the theft of intellectual property, which illegal downloading is.

BTW The number one industry in the world is entertainment. When you combine music, film,and television and other aspects of the entertainment business it out earns every industry in the World. Gambling and pornography may not be your cup of tea, but for millions of people it is entertainment and is fiscally classified as such.

Yes, BP does have to worry about people stealing their oil. In the days of $4 per gallon gas they had a record number of gas pump drive offs.  Just because they are responsible for the worst ecological disaster in US history doesn't mean they should be stolen from. Stealing a tank of gas from BP is about the same as stealing a CD or release via illegal downloading in the big picture of economic interest to both industries. However, their concern over intellectual property rights are limited to multi million dollar engineering and scientific projects. If these items (plans, drawings, etc) are stolen (and corporate espionage is a real issue) then they can lose hundreds of millions of dollars in research, development and future earnings. Guess who pays for that in the end?

Like I said, I am against theft in general. I wouldn't have dedicated 20 years of my life fighting crime if I though it was ok. Yet somehow I don't think people here will care as much about BP losing millions due to stolen gas as they will about Mike Lombardo's intellectual property causing a dip in his $673 worth of royalties. Did anyone else notice his labels end was over $175,000? This is what I meant by the disparity of the executives and corporations v. the artist share Tim van de Ven. I never implied or represented it as an excuse to steal. I have stated time and time again I am against piracy. In my opinion the biggest thieves in the music business are labels (mind you the new wave of 50/50 indy splits are a new phenomenon.) Why does Mike Lombardo have $673 in royalties while his label collects $177,000? But that is for another day I'm sure.

Tim van de Ven

Quote from: Tony on July 06, 2012, 10:03 AM
That video was entertaining. It must have been fun to poke holes in the arguments of a 4 year old.


So can one assume that you disagree with what was said?

Quote from: Tony on July 06, 2012, 10:03 AM

Good for the Justice Department for shutting down megaupload.com


Agreed.

Quote from: Tony on July 06, 2012, 10:03 AM

Just to clarify again, I am against the theft of intellectual property, which illegal downloading is.

BTW The number one industry in the world is entertainment. When you combine music, film,and television and other aspects of the entertainment business it out earns every industry in the World. Gambling and pornography may not be your cup of tea, but for millions of people it is entertainment and is fiscally classified as such.

Yes, BP does have to worry about people stealing their oil. In the days of $4 per gallon gas they had a record number of gas pump drive offs.  Just because they are responsible for the worst ecological disaster in US history doesn't mean they should be stolen from. Stealing a tank of gas from BP is about the same as stealing a CD or release via illegal downloading in the big picture of economic interest to both industries. However, their concern over intellectual property rights are limited to multi million dollar engineering and scientific projects. If these items (plans, drawings, etc) are stolen (and corporate espionage is a real issue) then they can lose hundreds of millions of dollars in research, development and future earnings. Guess who pays for that in the end?

Like I said, I am against theft in general. I wouldn't have dedicated 20 years of my life fighting crime if I though it was ok. Yet somehow I don't think people here will care as much about BP losing millions due to stolen gas as they will about Mike Lombardo's intellectual property causing a dip in his $673 worth of royalties. Did anyone else notice his labels end was over $175,000? This is what I meant by the disparity of the executives and corporations v. the artist share Tim van de Ven. I never implied or represented it as an excuse to steal. I have stated time and time again I am against piracy. In my opinion the biggest thieves in the music business are labels (mind you the new wave of 50/50 indy splits are a new phenomenon.) Why does Mike Lombardo have $673 in royalties while his label collects $177,000? But that is for another day I'm sure.

First: drive-offs. They don't compare to downloading at all; local law enforcement will go after people that fill the tank and run; try telling a cop on the beat that you know one of your friends has 14 terabytes of illegally downloaded movies and see what he/she does.

If you want to know why Mike Lombardo's label collects more money than he has, perhaps ask him (Mike) what his contract stipulates. Who's to say that he wasn't given a generous advance (which most labels do) or hasn't been given other considerations? It's very easy to skew the facts to one side or the other. You don't have all of the facts as they pertain to his contract with the label. You have one small side of the story and are filling in the rest by dismissing the executives at his label as "thieves". You need to get the rest of the story to make an informed opinion on this matter.

For instance, I could cite a commercial that I co-wrote a few years back (for Target Department Stores) and say something like what you've just said; I could massage the facts and easily claim the following:

Target paid me $XXX.XX for the placement and I received $YXX.XX in songwriting royalties from BMI, yet Target made $XXX,XXX,XXX.XX due to the popularity of the advert.

Did Target rip me off? No. Does Target owe me more money? Absolutely not. But it is very easy to drum up sympathy by selectively omitting some of the facts and massaging the numbers to benefit "poor old me". Are some artists getting a raw deal? Possibly (question: why did you sign that contract, then?). Are all artists getting a raw deal? No.


Here's the best argument against illegal downloading that I have heard in some time:

Price of MacBook Laptop: $1200
Price of latest iPod: $300
Internet Service $20 per month
External storage drive: $300
Price for music: Time to stick it to the man; I'm hitting a Torrent site; labels make tons of money and screw over the artists, so I'll screw over the record companies

In reality, you've paid "the man" via your hardware purchases and are screwing the little guy (artist) whose livelihood depends on sales of his/her songs. No sales of songs/albums = dropped from label deal.

Tony

No I don't support illegal downloading. No I don't think that any form of stealing is right. I don't think the attitude of law enforcement about illegal downloading is correct. However, my point of view about the reality of how the situation is viewed and treated is based on my experience. Understanding the other side is not the same thing as agreeing with it. I was taught to gather as much information about a topic as possible  before rendering a decision or an opinion. I think I've made my personal position known on how I feel about it (see above).

Yes I made a generalization about the numbers displayed. I understand that the small label he is on has other clients and the reports issued was each respective entities summary and that Mike Lombardo represents an unknown quantity of the total of the label. Unlike the blogger, I understand economics.

I've also read case law from California regarding the unfair business practices of record labels when it came to ownership and proper compensation of royalties for intellectual property rights (which stretch far beyond the copyrights of music). Until the last 10 years or less, the standard contract earnings for a new band was somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 to 10% gross sales. History has shown us from the advent of recording and the sale of recorded music, labels have mistreated, lied, manipulated and stolen from the artists that create the "product" for them. This is what I meant in my comments about the overall aspect of the music industry corporations. All 4 of them that control 85% of the music in America.

Re: the 4 year old comment. While I applaud Mike Lombardo's message, the blog he was quoting from as the basis of his rant wasn't really full of compelling arguments:

"Trillion zillion dollars"
"Artists don't any never have made money"
"Everything is already free"
"Creating art doesn't cost anything"
Etc, etc, etc.

Again, I support Mike Lombardo's message, I agree with it. I was just making a crack about the ridiculous blogger point of view. Especially when it is revealed that the guy is a walking contradiction of his own blog. But I meet a lot of people like that in the world.

At the end of the day, these discussions are always fun and enlightening. The video link was a bonus. I think it is one of the best means for getting the message out. While the blogger makes what I consider to be pointless arguments, many people share his belief and use those very reasons to justify their theft. Mike does a very good job of providing information for people to process. He's an indie artists trying to pay his bills; people can relate to that. These are the voices of the industry that people need to hear.

Thanks for your time.