Music Rights Now - Helping to Protect Intellectual Property Online

[Bart Elliott]

Chris and Keith have hit the proverbial nail on it's proverbial head.

When you are an artist, it's either outhouse or castle; there is no middle class.

Agreed!

I do understand Tony's perspective. He's in law enforcement and has dealt with this topic quite a bit. But my perspective (and others) is coming from being in the entertainment industry, full-time, for over 30 years.

What Chris and Keith have pointed out, and what I was "trying" to point out, is that there's a lot of crime going on ... and it's not all about the big dogs and how they are affected. I'm 'small potatoes' in the music biz, so any blow I receive through theft or not being compensated is HUGE! I'm self-employed in every sense of the word ... and my business is small revenue ... just enough to get by, and only because of God's blessing.

I'm going to say this again ... anything that can be duplicated digitally is going to be hit far harder than anything else. All of the fine arts fit into this category, including music, film, dance, books, etc. The masses seem to view the entertainment industry as part of their entitlement, so they have no problem stealing it or taking it without paying for it. They view walking into a store and taking something without paying for it as shoplifting (aka stealing), but not so with digital products that can be shared, copied/duplicated, and transferred about with the simple push of a button.

Just a side note: let's make sure WE are not guilty of doing the very same thing with other individual's creative property. It's not right for us to complain if we in turn are doing the very same thing. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

[Tim van de Ven]

Agree on all points, Bart; especially the last one. I sadly know of a few "musicians" and even a real studio that use cracked software or pull songs and movies from torrent feeds.

[Chris Whitten]

I'm 'small potatoes' in the music biz, so any blow I receive through theft or not being compensated is HUGE! I'm self-employed in every sense of the word ... and my business is small revenue ... just enough to get by, and only because of God's blessing.

Yes, this is exactly what I've been trying to express.

If Joe Schmo decides to set up his own website about drums, and copies a lot of Bart's content, there is no 'cash rich' industry to defend Bart's intellectual property. He effectively can't call in law enforcement, or rely on anti-bootlegging organisations to intervene and put the situation right.
Tony is right in that respect, there are bigger fish to fry. But apart from being outrageous (IMO) we need to put in place some kind of deterrent that stops the casual pirate from considering copying  Drummer Cafe content and posting around the web. If not, people like Bart will take this place down and we all lose out. I really worry about this attitude that creative people will still create. Maybe Bart will funnel his creativity to his own drumming and his garden etc.... and again, we all lose out.
The internet is pretty lawless at the moment. Actually there are quite a few laws already in place, but people have understood they can currently do what they like and rarely get caught. If people want to enjoy new music, and enjoy visiting forums like Drummer Cafe, they'd better get serious about stopping content theft around the web.
As usual it's the minority (sadly still several million people) who are taking advantage, and they will spoil a lot of great resources for the rest of us.

[NY Frank]

Agree on all points, Bart; especially the last one. I sadly know of a few "musicians" and even a real studio that use cracked software or pull songs and movies from torrent feeds.

How about a lawyer and later - judge - who I once had an argument with about what he was doing with that stack of blank CDs.     

People have an unlimited capacity to create their own personal realities and laws.  Even people who spent their life upholding the law.

[Tony]

I have 2 responses, sorry. The first is mostly for Chris:

It's comments like this that lead me to think that I'm being told that I'm not an "insider' so I don't have the right to make opposing comments

Maybe if you were a full time musician you'd realise the vast majority of musicians aren't cash rich.  So before you criticize me, which I think you were, you may want to get away from the music corporations and wealthy executives, and experience life as a real, working musician

I wasn't criticizing you Chris, I was referring to your statements in the context of the discussion, which I disagreed with.

First off, I said that the entertainment industry was cash rich and to deny this is ludicrous. It's the number 1 industry in the world. Maybe you should be asking why they people who create the product are treated so poorly by the executives and corporations. I realize that most musicians aren't cash rich. How do I know this? you may ask:

I have experienced life as a real live working musician. I represent the vast majority of people in the music business, club players. Try to take this with a grain of salt Chrisso, but you are the exception, not the rule. You are easily the most successful musicians on this sight and have played with true greats in the business. You make a viable living from the music business and have played on stadium tours, top songs and with music royalty. You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live. You represent a small aspect of the industry. You are the proverbial NFL linebacker you referenced earlier.  While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians? The majority of the people who make up the business are players who have to work at other jobs (bartending, working in music stores, etc) to make ends meet. If you need to reaffirm this, just look at the make up of this sight; thousands of musicians, with only a small percentage who work full time in the industry. I went to college on a music scholarship and gigged throughout school to pay bills. I played and mini-toured with a corporate show band an average of 3 days a week for 10 years while I was an active police officer often working 80 hour weeks between the 2.  I also continue to play in small club and wedding bands as I have since I was 16 years old.  I won't bother to list the credits of film, television or musical projects that the studio I co-owned for 10 years worked on but they include actors, directors and musicians who are household names. Many of the "full time" musicians that that I have worked with have to multi task to make a living, including working outside the business. I realized at an early age that trying to support myself and my family as a musician was a bad career choice for me. But it doesn't deter me from pursuing my art as a creative person and making a welcome additional income. I have worked as hard at music as anything else in my life and I am ok with my rewards for my effort. I also realize that my positive attitude is exceptional. I'm lucky in the opportunities presented to me and how I have chosen to work within the business.

To be dismissive of what I have to say because I don't have your experience or meet your standards for being a member of the music business lessens your credibility IMO; no one here has your experience dude, its exceptional. I have always respected your point of view even if I didn't agree with it.

[Tony]

Just a final thought or two if you guys don't mind (BTW I am recently retired from Law Enforcement).

1. I don't condone or in any way think that the illegal downloading is ok. Along the way in this discussion it gets lost that I am a musician and I suffer from the same issues, although not on the same scale that some of you may.

2. I don't agree with this statement at all:

You don't find many saying "whatever, they'll nurse anyway".

simply because I have seen the exact opposite on a daily basis. People all over the world do jobs like nursing, teaching and law enforcement without fair compensation. I went the final 6 years of my police career taking an overall 8% cut in pay as the cost of living increased by about 8% which amounts to about a 15% cut in pay. This is the norm all over this country in the "people services" business and yet these people continue to come to work day in and day out and do a thankless job despite their poor compensation. It's amazing to me that the people most responsible for our children's growth (teachers) are some of the poorest paid members of the work force, yet they keep coming to work everyday.

3. The overall problem with combating piracy is this:

So many people operate with a skewed sense of what musicians make. There's no middle class in music. You're either a household name or you're starving. And this unrealistic and blase attitude about royalties/compensation helps keep things that way.

It's not unrealistic; the people who make these decisions understand this better than you do. I would venture that no one on this sight, Chris Whitten included (as he is probably the biggest victim of piracy here) has lost enough money to piracy to warrant the expense of conducting an enforcement operation. It cost more to combat the problem than what most of you are making, let alone losing. So it is an economic loss to pursue your economic loss. When you actually reach the level of loss that is significant enough to warrant enforcement, your victims are some of the richest people in the industry. An industry can't be a victim, individual people have to be.  Oftentimes their public persona's are such that they come across unsympathetic. It's hard for 12 people on a jury to relate to some entertainment big wig/performer losing more money than they collectively make in a year. It's even more difficult to get them on board when the poster children for the music industry continuously blow themselves up with drugs, alcohol, devil worship and the myriad of other issues (correct or not) that the public hears or sees on the news. Is this right? No, but it is reality. Ask any lawyer you know what the goal of a trial is. It isn't to pursue justice, it's to win. And if your case isn't a winner, it's not going to trial. Juries are fickle monsters and it only takes 1 of 12 to hang them up. Prosecutors are poorly paid lawyers, often the best of the best who do the job because they believe in it, not for money, which is less than half of what they would make if they were on the other side. The only thing that makes them feel good is winning. With the multitude of cases to choose from they will almost always pass on copyright cases because they are losers. (Not right, but reality)

I say all this to end with this: The entertainment industry employs a small army of ASCAP/BMI/MPAA investigators whose sole job is to collect evidence for lawsuits and criminal proceedings. I have worked with these people and they are great at what they do. Other than insurance there are no other investigators dedicated to fighting fraud within their industry like these folks. If you don't know who your local reps are for these groups then you should, especially if you live and work within music hubs like Nashville and make a living from publishing or performance royalties. If you are really serious about combating the problem then stop posting on music boards amongst people who almost wholly agree with you and volunteer in your community. (Not a jab at anyone, just a call to arms so to say!) These folks will give you educational materials and support to do it. Go to the local schools and reach the kids while they are young. Every teacher in this country will take a serious industry rep who wants to provide education to kids for free. Combine a drum circle with a short talk on the wrongs of illegal downloading. You can help an under funded school music program in the process. It's a win-win situation. If you don't step up and take action then don't expect the cash strapped Government to do it. The first step to reforming a broken process is to actively engage in change.

[Bart Elliott]

The first step to reforming a broken process is to actively engage in change.

Isn't that what I'm doing here?

If we can get back to the original statement and post, I was encouraging people to be aware of how they can fight the problem.

• Education: Learn how these crimes affect the musicians ("creative people") they love. Discussing it here and other boards lets novice to professionals know that these crimes are serious. Not everyone on the musician forums are professionals or even make a dime from music. Educating means others will hopefully see the light and begin to spread the word elsewhere.


• Information: Telling people what they can do to take real action towards fighting the crime. Signing petitions may be a small thing, but it lets the government know that we are serious about the problem. The fact that the government is "strapped for cash" doesn't mean we shouldn't inform them of what we want or need them to do.

Tony, I think Chris, in his statement about being a "full-time musician", was simply suggesting that unless someone depends solely on the income derived from the music industry. I thought you had mentioned that you were part-time or semi-pro at one point ... which to me means that you were not relying 100% on your music career to provide for you. I think that's what Chris heard/read as well, and was addressing that in his statement.

I personally feel that some of the biggest crimes happen from within. Those in the music biz are stealing from others in the music biz, whether it be the corporation against individual as well as individual against individual.

[Tim van de Ven]

I have 2 responses, sorry. The first is mostly for Chris:

It's comments like this that lead me to think that I'm being told that I'm not an "insider' so I don't have the right to make opposing comments 

I wasn't criticizing you Chris, I was referring to your statements in the context of the discussion, which I disagreed with.

First off, I said that the entertainment industry was cash rich and to deny this is ludicrous. It's the number 1 industry in the world. Maybe you should be asking why they people who create the product are treated so poorly by the executives and corporations. I realize that most musicians aren't cash rich. How do I know this? you may ask:

I believe that oil production might be a larger industry than the "entertainment industry".   At least British Petroleum doesn't have to worry about people copying and downloading their oil for free.

And to blame "executives and corporations" is similar to what pirates use to justify illegal downloads; "They're filthy stinking rich, so I feel vindicated in stealing from them"

I have experienced life as a real live working musician. I represent the vast majority of people in the music business, club players. Try to take this with a grain of salt Chrisso, but you are the exception, not the rule. You are easily the most successful musicians on this sight and have played with true greats in the business. You make a viable living from the music business and have played on stadium tours, top songs and with music royalty. You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live. You represent a small aspect of the industry. You are the proverbial NFL linebacker you referenced earlier.  While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians? The majority of the people who make up the business are players who have to work at other jobs (bartending, working in music stores, etc) to make ends meet. If you need to reaffirm this, just look at the make up of this sight; thousands of musicians, with only a small percentage who work full time in the industry. I went to college on a music scholarship and gigged throughout school to pay bills. I played and mini-toured with a corporate show band an average of 3 days a week for 10 years while I was an active police officer often working 80 hour weeks between the 2.  I also continue to play in small club and wedding bands as I have since I was 16 years old.  I won't bother to list the credits of film, television or musical projects that the studio I co-owned for 10 years worked on but they include actors, directors and musicians who are household names. Many of the "full time" musicians that that I have worked with have to multi task to make a living, including working outside the business. I realized at an early age that trying to support myself and my family as a musician was a bad career choice for me. But it doesn't deter me from pursuing my art as a creative person and making a welcome additional income. I have worked as hard at music as anything else in my life and I am ok with my rewards for my effort. I also realize that my positive attitude is exceptional. I'm lucky in the opportunities presented to me and how I have chosen to work within the business.

To be dismissive of what I have to say because I don't have your experience or meet your standards for being a member of the music business lessens your credibility IMO; no one here has your experience dude, its exceptional. I have always respected your point of view even if I didn't agree with it.

I find it interesting that your lengthy paragraph, wherein you ask Chris to "take this with a grain of salt", that it appears to be an attack on Chris, much in the same way as your previous remark about "executives and corporations". So Chris lives where Chris lives and he's played with some of the biggest names in music; shouldn't he be allowed to enjoy the fruits of his labours? You seem prepared to dismiss his arguments because he hasn't lived your reality. Chris is a tireless advocate of anti-piracy on this site and on others; you should applaud and support his efforts and not attack his lifestyle. Your final paragraph states that, "[you] have always respected your point of view" which to me clashes with what you've said; you can't hammer Chris over "living on a vineyard" and rip him for dealing with endorsement reps and then tell him you respect his point of view; that doesn't compute. You accused him of being dismissive, yet in your post, you essentially dismiss everything that he's said because he's been more successful.

As Bart said, let's bring this back to the piracy discussion and not turn this into "my world is tougher than your world" nonsense.

I'll make it easy: theft is theft whether you've stolen from a poor man, a small shop, McDonald's, RCA, Sony, BP or otherwise.

[Chris Whitten]

FWIW, 90% of my music career has been on the ground, in the trenches, working alongside people who need every last cent to pay their rent. My glamorous experiences amount to just over 4 years out of 30 years as a full time pro.

I don't want to go through Tony's post line by line, but I do feel some major misrepresentations are being put forth....

You live on your own vineyard in Australia, which certainly sounds more glamorous than how many of us live.

It 'sounds' glamorous to anyone who has never owned a vineyard. It's actually farming..... like growing potatoes or wheat. It's back breaking work and you are at the bottom of the heap in terms of financial reward. I think you mistook me for Francis Ford Coppola..... I don't make wine.

You represent a small aspect of the industry.

How do you know? So you're basing that on one or two high profile gigs from 20+ years ago?
My most recent regular gig drumming-wise is a pub, cover band. Loading in and setting up myself. Four hour set of varied cover songs. I think that places me right about in the middle of most Drummer Cafe member's current musical experiences.

While I enjoyed your stories about the club tour you did with World Party a few years ago do you realize that telling people you can't hook up at a show because you have to spend time with your endorsement reps is not normal for most club musicians?

I can't remember saying that specifically. In fact I 'hooked up' with Cafe member Robyn and her husband at the Boulder show. I met and chatted with Cafe member 'Felix' at the Cincinnati show, I managed to get a ticket for Tim to attend the Osheaga Festival in Montreal when we played it on that tour.
I would never have used the phrase 'endorsement reps' because I don't have relationships with 'endorsement reps'. I have one or two relationships with 'people' who work for drum companies. The only relevant shows being LA, where I invited
the guys from DW, as I'd NEVER met them and thanked them personally for over 15 years support (hardware contract).
And the New York show, where I invited the family that are Noble & Cooley.
I obviously struck up a very personal relationship with Jay and Carol Jones (N&C), being their only drum kit endorser other than Denny Carmassi (Heart) in 1989/90. World Party had not scheduled a show in New England, so Jay and Carol were proposing to drive down to see me (4hr return trip) as we hadn't met in person for more than ten years.
So yes, I would have felt bad holding up Jay and Carol's return drive to Northern CT in the wee small hours of the morning, while I hooked up with an internet forum member.
I realise all this is completely beside the point though - the point being music piracy and how to deal with it.

[Chris Whitten]

Tony, I think Chris, in his statement about being a "full-time musician", was simply suggesting that unless someone depends solely on the income derived from the music industry. I thought you had mentioned that you were part-time or semi-pro at one point ... which to me means that you were not relying 100% on your music career to provide for you. I think that's what Chris heard/read as well, and was addressing that in his statement.

Exactly right.
In short, I want more part time musicians to have the opportunity to enjoy a happy full time career in the music industry.
I know it's hard to succeed. What currently disturbs me is that pirates, who are society's 'takers' are creating an environment where the already difficult task of earning a living through your music is ever more difficult. That illegal behaviour is driving more talented musicians out of full time participation. And whichever way you look at it, that's bad in my opinion.

[Chris Whitten]

This is one of the best arguments against the 'big wigs', 'cash rich' angle in the piracy debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws

[Tim van de Ven]

This is one of the best arguments against the 'big wigs', 'cash rich' angle in the piracy debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws

That is spectacular! Thank-you, Chris!

[NY Frank]

This is one of the best arguments against the 'big wigs', 'cash rich' angle in the piracy debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwAiLICevc4#ws

Wow.  Thanks for posting that.   I really, really enjoyed that.   He did some job with that.

[Bart Elliott]

Look at what is now happening to copyright infringing websites such as this one:

http://www.megaupload.com/]http://www.megaupload.com/

[Tim van de Ven]

Look at what is now happening to copyright infringing websites such as this one:

http://www.megaupload.com/]http://www.megaupload.com/

That is a great start!

[Tony]

That video was entertaining. It must have been fun to poke holes in the arguments of a 4 year old.

Good for the Justice Department for shutting down megaupload.com

Just to clarify again, I am against the theft of intellectual property, which illegal downloading is.

BTW The number one industry in the world is entertainment. When you combine music, film,and television and other aspects of the entertainment business it out earns every industry in the World. Gambling and pornography may not be your cup of tea, but for millions of people it is entertainment and is fiscally classified as such.

Yes, BP does have to worry about people stealing their oil. In the days of $4 per gallon gas they had a record number of gas pump drive offs.  Just because they are responsible for the worst ecological disaster in US history doesn't mean they should be stolen from. Stealing a tank of gas from BP is about the same as stealing a CD or release via illegal downloading in the big picture of economic interest to both industries. However, their concern over intellectual property rights are limited to multi million dollar engineering and scientific projects. If these items (plans, drawings, etc) are stolen (and corporate espionage is a real issue) then they can lose hundreds of millions of dollars in research, development and future earnings. Guess who pays for that in the end?

Like I said, I am against theft in general. I wouldn't have dedicated 20 years of my life fighting crime if I though it was ok. Yet somehow I don't think people here will care as much about BP losing millions due to stolen gas as they will about Mike Lombardo's intellectual property causing a dip in his $673 worth of royalties. Did anyone else notice his labels end was over $175,000? This is what I meant by the disparity of the executives and corporations v. the artist share Tim van de Ven. I never implied or represented it as an excuse to steal. I have stated time and time again I am against piracy. In my opinion the biggest thieves in the music business are labels (mind you the new wave of 50/50 indy splits are a new phenomenon.) Why does Mike Lombardo have $673 in royalties while his label collects $177,000? But that is for another day I'm sure.

[Tim van de Ven]

That video was entertaining. It must have been fun to poke holes in the arguments of a 4 year old.

So can one assume that you disagree with what was said?

Good for the Justice Department for shutting down megaupload.com

Agreed.

Just to clarify again, I am against the theft of intellectual property, which illegal downloading is.

BTW The number one industry in the world is entertainment. When you combine music, film,and television and other aspects of the entertainment business it out earns every industry in the World. Gambling and pornography may not be your cup of tea, but for millions of people it is entertainment and is fiscally classified as such.

Yes, BP does have to worry about people stealing their oil. In the days of $4 per gallon gas they had a record number of gas pump drive offs.  Just because they are responsible for the worst ecological disaster in US history doesn't mean they should be stolen from. Stealing a tank of gas from BP is about the same as stealing a CD or release via illegal downloading in the big picture of economic interest to both industries. However, their concern over intellectual property rights are limited to multi million dollar engineering and scientific projects. If these items (plans, drawings, etc) are stolen (and corporate espionage is a real issue) then they can lose hundreds of millions of dollars in research, development and future earnings. Guess who pays for that in the end?

Like I said, I am against theft in general. I wouldn't have dedicated 20 years of my life fighting crime if I though it was ok. Yet somehow I don't think people here will care as much about BP losing millions due to stolen gas as they will about Mike Lombardo's intellectual property causing a dip in his $673 worth of royalties. Did anyone else notice his labels end was over $175,000? This is what I meant by the disparity of the executives and corporations v. the artist share Tim van de Ven. I never implied or represented it as an excuse to steal. I have stated time and time again I am against piracy. In my opinion the biggest thieves in the music business are labels (mind you the new wave of 50/50 indy splits are a new phenomenon.) Why does Mike Lombardo have $673 in royalties while his label collects $177,000? But that is for another day I'm sure.

First: drive-offs. They don't compare to downloading at all; local law enforcement will go after people that fill the tank and run; try telling a cop on the beat that you know one of your friends has 14 terabytes of illegally downloaded movies and see what he/she does.

If you want to know why Mike Lombardo's label collects more money than he has, perhaps ask him (Mike) what his contract stipulates. Who's to say that he wasn't given a generous advance (which most labels do) or hasn't been given other considerations? It's very easy to skew the facts to one side or the other. You don't have all of the facts as they pertain to his contract with the label. You have one small side of the story and are filling in the rest by dismissing the executives at his label as "thieves". You need to get the rest of the story to make an informed opinion on this matter.

For instance, I could cite a commercial that I co-wrote a few years back (for Target Department Stores) and say something like what you've just said; I could massage the facts and easily claim the following:

Target paid me $XXX.XX for the placement and I received $YXX.XX in songwriting royalties from BMI, yet Target made $XXX,XXX,XXX.XX due to the popularity of the advert.

Did Target rip me off? No. Does Target owe me more money? Absolutely not. But it is very easy to drum up sympathy by selectively omitting some of the facts and massaging the numbers to benefit "poor old me". Are some artists getting a raw deal? Possibly (question: why did you sign that contract, then?). Are all artists getting a raw deal? No.


Here's the best argument against illegal downloading that I have heard in some time:

Price of MacBook Laptop: $1200
Price of latest iPod: $300
Internet Service $20 per month
External storage drive: $300
Price for music: Time to stick it to the man; I'm hitting a Torrent site; labels make tons of money and screw over the artists, so I'll screw over the record companies

In reality, you've paid "the man" via your hardware purchases and are screwing the little guy (artist) whose livelihood depends on sales of his/her songs. No sales of songs/albums = dropped from label deal.

[Tony]

No I don't support illegal downloading. No I don't think that any form of stealing is right. I don't think the attitude of law enforcement about illegal downloading is correct. However, my point of view about the reality of how the situation is viewed and treated is based on my experience. Understanding the other side is not the same thing as agreeing with it. I was taught to gather as much information about a topic as possible  before rendering a decision or an opinion. I think I've made my personal position known on how I feel about it (see above).

Yes I made a generalization about the numbers displayed. I understand that the small label he is on has other clients and the reports issued was each respective entities summary and that Mike Lombardo represents an unknown quantity of the total of the label. Unlike the blogger, I understand economics.

I've also read case law from California regarding the unfair business practices of record labels when it came to ownership and proper compensation of royalties for intellectual property rights (which stretch far beyond the copyrights of music). Until the last 10 years or less, the standard contract earnings for a new band was somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 to 10% gross sales. History has shown us from the advent of recording and the sale of recorded music, labels have mistreated, lied, manipulated and stolen from the artists that create the "product" for them. This is what I meant in my comments about the overall aspect of the music industry corporations. All 4 of them that control 85% of the music in America.

Re: the 4 year old comment. While I applaud Mike Lombardo's message, the blog he was quoting from as the basis of his rant wasn't really full of compelling arguments:

"Trillion zillion dollars"
"Artists don't any never have made money"
"Everything is already free"
"Creating art doesn't cost anything"
Etc, etc, etc.

Again, I support Mike Lombardo's message, I agree with it. I was just making a crack about the ridiculous blogger point of view. Especially when it is revealed that the guy is a walking contradiction of his own blog. But I meet a lot of people like that in the world.

At the end of the day, these discussions are always fun and enlightening. The video link was a bonus. I think it is one of the best means for getting the message out. While the blogger makes what I consider to be pointless arguments, many people share his belief and use those very reasons to justify their theft. Mike does a very good job of providing information for people to process. He's an indie artists trying to pay his bills; people can relate to that. These are the voices of the industry that people need to hear.

Thanks for your time.