Topic: Need help with single stroke patterns

[Anthony Deane]

I have to this a continuous piece but am getting stuck on how to count the 5/7/ 9 /10 . I can sort of do the 5 and 7 but counting quintuplets  so 1 2 3 and septuplets as 1 2 3 4   and the  9 I'm counting as 3 triplets?? But i dont know if im over complicating it?? If anyone can offer advice on how to count these i would be very grateful

Cheers
Ant

[Jon E]

Some teachers teach words to mimic rhythm patterns.  Like "alligator alligator alligator alligator" mimics 16th notes--1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a.   You could find a good 5-syllable word for the fives. 

cannibalism cannibalism cannibalism cannibalism. 

Fives and sevens will clearly be the hardest and least "natural" of them all.  It really just takes a lot of repetition to get that "feel" in your brain and your rhythmic psyche.

[David Stanoch]

Anthony,

Jon is quite correct in the observations he shared regarding verbalization (my personal favorite for quintuplets is:  "Min-ne-a-po-lis," cuz that's where I live!) - they can help you find a natural rhythmic flow.

Here's a link to a book a I wrote (called Mastering the Tables of Time) that addresses this concept in exactly the manner you're dealing with:

http://www.rhythmelodic.com/AVchapters_IntroV2.html

If you click on the link, look for this paragraph, midway down the page:

SEE and  HEAR the World Timetable at a tempo of quarter-note = 60 bpm with click track accompaniment.

If you click on the SEE link, you'll get a pdf showing a timetable similar to the you pictured outlining 1-9 subdivisions per beat. Under the notes of the subdivisions you'll see short words that line up with the notes.

The notes are actually short phrases that are easy to say in rhythm with the subdivisions. The are taken from a musical form of "vocal percussion" from India, called "konnokol."

The idea behind using these patterns is that they are easy to say and apply to the subdivisions at tempos like the one on your page. It makes this Eastern verbalization system often preferable to me than the non-standard forms of Western counting we have and typically hear.

There are short and long forms of konnokol for certain subdivisions, but I prefer the short form for teaching, because you only have to learn four vocal patterns:

"Ta" for one note (or the quarter-note),
"Ta-Ka" for two notes (or the eighth-notes),
"Ta-Ki-Ta" for three notes (or a triplet), and
"Ta-Ka-Di-Me" for four notes (or the sixteenth-notes).

Then for the large groupings, you can combine them:

"Ta-Ka" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" for the quintuplet (five sixteenths),
"Ta-Ki-Ta" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" for the sextuplet (six sixteenths),
"Ta-Ka-Di-Me" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" for the septuplet (seven sixteenths),
"Ta-Ka-Di-Me" + "Ta-Ka-Di-Me" for the 32nd notes, etc.

There can be variations of this that you can use to make them work for you, for instance, I like "Ta-Ki-Ta" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" for the nines, and the tens could still be just the same as the fives, "Ta-Ka-Ta-Ki-Ta" but now play two 32nds per each syllable of the sixteenth subdivision.

This brings me to another point that may help you with the feel. I see you have to play the page as single strokes, but I'd recommend applying mixed stickings first, to help you get the feel and then you could translate that to single-strokes once you can hear and anticipate the trickier subdivisions more easily.

If you're right-handed, try a right-hand lead approach to the subdivisions like this:

1 = R
2 = RL
3 = RLL
4 = RLRL
5 = RL-RLL (notice the hyphen corresponds w/the "Ta-Ka" + "Ta-Ki-Ta" konnokol "hook")
6 = RLL-RLL
7 = RLRL-RLL
8 = RLRL-RLRL
9 = RLL-RLL-RLL

For ten subdivisions, you could try two groups of the 5 sticking: RL-RLL + RL-RLL, OR try playing a five 16th note grouping as singles and then double-stroke that foundation to produce ten 32nd notes. Change back from doubles to singles at the new subdivision as you get the feel for it.

Two more tips:
1. Remember, as you move to get the entire timetable flowing as single-strokes, all of the subdivisions that are duple (or divisible by two) can be played with your RH on every downbeat, but the odd subdivisions - 1,3,5,7,9 will all alternate R to L hands on the downbeats - the 5, 7 & 9 note groupings work just like the quarter-notes & 8th note triplets that way.

2. If you click on the HEAR link on the above page from my website, you can hear the SEE example played @ 60 bpm. And, even though your piece is marked to be played at 65 bpm, I strongly recommend starting out even slower - around 40, 45 bpm to give yourself more space between beats to work on feeling the more "dense" subdivisions of 5-10.

Speed will come much more easily once you can hear and anticipate these subdivisions in your head.

I hope this helps & I wish you luck!
D.

[Jon E]

Jeez David, write a book next time!  (... oh ...)
 

[David Stanoch]

HA!

I laughed out loud, Jon - thx! 

I'd like to say, "No way, it's too much d*mn work!"

But we all know I couldn't help myself if I tried... 

[Anthony Deane]

Hello, thanks for the reply. Just to let you know i have ordered your book, but i'm sad to say i did it on amazon cause it was over $40 with postage on your official site.   

[David Stanoch]

Hello, thanks for the reply. Just to let you know i have ordered your book, but i'm sad to say i did it on amazon cause it was over $40 with postage on your official site.   

Hi Anthony,

No worries, my friend - smart move.

You must be across the ocean from me. My international shipping costs are insane.

A couple years ago, I sent a copy of the book to my friend, Andy Newmark, the famed session drummer, who sent me a note back saying, "David, Congratulations. I'm very impressed with the book and maybe even more so at how much the cost of mailing one has skyrocketed since I first moved here!" 

Best of luck in your studies and enjoy the book.
Cheers!
 

[Bill Bachman]

David, I didn't know you were in Minneapolis. I just did a little drum camp there with Jeff Queen and I would've tried to say hello to you had I known.

And there you have it...

[David Stanoch]

Wow. funny the little things that slip through the cracks, eh Bill?

Thanks, though. Funny I didn't hear you & Jeff were coming, either. My radar's usually pretty good 'round here.

Where were you at?

[Bill Bachman]

I'm in Nashville. Jeff actually lives there and teaches some at Butler.

[David Stanoch]

I'm in Nashville. Jeff actually lives there and teaches some at Butler.

Hey Bill,
Actually I knew you were in Nashville (although I didn't realize Jeff was, too), thx.

What I meant to ask was, where did you guys work while here in MN?   

[Bill Bachman]

I'm in Nashville, Jeff lives by you and teaches part time at Butler. We held the camp at Butler. Word? 

[David Stanoch]

Hi Bill,

I'm still confused - I thought Butler was in Indianapolis?
... and I'm in Minneapolis.

Either way, cheers!!

[Bill Bachman]

Oh, Duhh.  Nevermind then.   

[David Stanoch]

I wish you guys had come to Minneapolis - that would've been fun!

Maybe another time. 

[Todd Knapp]

This probably sends the wrong message, but for 5's and 7's I'm partial to "ver-y-diff-i-cult" and "ver-y-ver-y-diff-i-cult", respectively. They even nicely follow the konokol hooks.

[David Stanoch]

This probably sends the wrong message, but for 5's and 7's I'm partial to "ver-y-diff-i-cult" and "ver-y-ver-y-diff-i-cult", respectively. They even nicely follow the konokol hooks.

hahahahahahaha!

Love it, Boomka!

[Bill Bachman]

Ha! Yes, but those do seem to work quite well.

[Mark Levine]

Sorry for the misalignment. I aligned everything the best i could.
Depending on the tempo, (the speed of the metronomes click sound),
the quintuplets can be counted as
1 2 3 4 5, or  1 an 2 an 3,
or by counting the motions of the lead hand:

Count 1       2        3   1       2        3
          1  an  2  an  3  1  an  2  an  3 
Play    1   2   3   4   5  1   2   3   4   5
          R   L   R   L   R   L   R   L   R   L
or  - -  1                      2   (etc, count the quarter note beat).

Note- counting by the motion of the lead hand, means the (second half actually has an upbeat feel), because the lead hand always lands on the (an count) - 1 2 3 (1 2 3),
1 2 3 4 (1 2 3 4), 1 2 3 4 5 (1 2 3 4 5).

Example 1        2       3 (1        2        3 )
              1  an  2  an  3  1  an  2  an  3
              1  an  2  an  3 (an  4  an  5  an)         

The septuplets can be counted as
1 2 3 4 5 6 7, or 1 an 2 an 3 an 4,
or by counting the motions of the lead hand:

Count 1       2        3        4  1        2       3       4
          1  an  2  an  3  an  4  1  an  2  an  3 an  4 
 Play   1   2   3   4   5   6   7  1  2   3   4   5  6   7
          R   L   R    L   R   L   R  L  R   L   R    L  R   L
or  - -  1                                2  (etc, count the quarter note beat).


The nonuplet, if grouped as 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1, counted as
1 an 2 an 3 an 4 an 5,
you could count the motions of the lead hand:

Count 1      2      3     4      5  1      2     3      4      5
          1 an 2 an 3 an 4 an 5  1 an 2 an 3 an 4 an 5 
 Play   1  2  3  4  5  6  7 8  9  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 8  9
          R  L  R  L  R   L  R  L  R  L  R  L  R  L  R  L  R  L
Beat    1                                 2 

if grouped as 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3, counted as
1 an ah 2 an ah 3 an ah,
count the first motion of every group of three:

Count 1          2           3          1           2          3
          1 an ah 2 an ah 3 an ah 1 an ah 2 an ah 3 an ah 
 Play   1  2   3  4  5  6  7  8  9   1  2  3  4  5  6   7  8  9
          R  L   R   L  R  L  R  L  R   L  R   L  R  L  R   L  R  L
Beat   1                                    2  (etc,the beat).


The decuplet, if grouped as 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2, counted as
1 an 2 an 3 an 4 an 5 an,
you could count the motions of the lead hand:

Count 1        2       3        4        5 
          1  an  2  an  3  an  4  an  5  an 
Play    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8  9  10
          R   L   R    L   R   L   R   L  R   L
Beat    1 

The decuplet, if grouped as 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5,
you could count the duplet:

Count 1                 an                (2  an  etc. . .)
          1  2  3  4  5  1  2  3  4  5
Play    R   L  R  L  R  L  R  L  R  L
Beat   1 

Keep in mind that page could be played to different note notations of the metronomes pulse. In other words a quintuplet etc, instead of it being played as 5 in the time of 1 (5:1), could be played as 5:2, 5:3, 5:4, etc, and other counting systems could be applied. For another time.

                   

[Jon E]

I don't like using "an" as it is too close (IMHO) to "&".  I'm of the school that each note has its own unique "word".