Topic: Cleaning up fills and transitions/Playing to songs with difficult vocal rhythms

[Matthew Warwick]

I know I've started several threads in this section of the forum, but I've reached a new point in my practicing and I want to see what all you on here have done to help improve yourself in this area.

For a few months now I've dedicated a decent amount of time to practicing with a metronome. I've basically only practiced beats because I noticed my groove was a little sloppy. When I seemed to see very little improvement in my playing when I jammed along to music and recorded myself, I remembered I hadn't practiced fills very much. Then, I turned the song back on and I just played a beat straight through (sometimes changing up the bass drum pattern so I could test myself on several different variations). I've found to my great relief that when I did this I was able to stay pretty much right on the beat all the time and only miss the occasional hit or two by a fairly small margin. And it's pretty consistent overall. The only exceptions are when I worry and also when either of the issues in the title of this thread are in play.

I notice when I do a fill or even just transition to another playing surface (i.e. from hi-hat to ride), it throws me off a bit. I try to count through it but that only seems to help me with coming back in. And the only time I can seem to come back in cleanly is when I come back in on the same surface. Again, I can tell both when I'm playing and when I listen back to a recording of myself that my playing is a little sloppy for a good half a measure or so when I come back in on a different surface. I feel like I've gotten better at "riding the skateboard", but I can't "ollie from one ramp to another" or "perform any tricks" without "landing properly".

What is the best way to improve this? I did find an article on the internet on improving transitions. It's here:

http://www.drummagazine.com/lessons/post/perfecting-your-groove-fill-to-transitions/

Does any of this resonate with you guys? Just trying to cross reference the advice I am given between different sources to get the best results.

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My second issue is one that I have only found my way about half way through and I feel a bit stuck.

Without a doubt, there are songs in which the singers are not singing on the main rhythm, forcing us drummers to count for ourselves. I listen to a lot of Southern Gospel music and there are many songs like this. The one below is kind of an extreme example since the vocals on everything but the choruses seem to be very "freestyle".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWr13HvzBQ4
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Now yeah, I bet the drummer has some sort of metronome going in his ears since I think there's at least some backing tracks in all of their songs.

I've figured out how to count properly, but vocal rhythms like this distract me A LOT. And even when I'm on beat, sometimes the vocals are so legato and free form that it sounds like I'm off anyway. And staying on the center of the beat has proved to be a challenge in these songs as well. Sometimes I drag a bit and sometimes I rush a bit.

I'm not always going to have a metronome in my monitors to guide me, so what am I supposed to do when I play a song with free form vocal patterns live and I have to count for myself? Do I have to ignore the vocals or something? I've been following the vocal patterns in music for pretty much the whole time I've been playing, and I have a really hard time when it comes to kicking bad habits. For those of you that have had trouble with this, what did you do?

[Jon E]

Practice playing THROUGH the transition and into the next few measures as if it were all one phrase.  Don't think of it as two parts joined together, think of it as one long phase that happens to move from one surface to another.

To you vocal issue..... Subdivide. Block put what distracts you and play with what doesn't.  Sometimes the only thing that doesn't distract me is me clicking my teeth and subdividing the crap out of the tune!

[Matthew Warwick]

Thanks for reminding me about that "all one phrase" thing. I read about that before but I couldn't remember it until now. Thanks!

I kind of found out another problem tonight at church band practice: When somebody else makes a timing mistake or if someone isn't totally on with what the rest of us are doing, it really distracts me. And worse yet, sometimes I tend to blame myself for timing mistakes, even when I'm almost positive it's not me. Is there any way to not get so distracted by other people's (or even sometimes your own) mistakes that you yourself start to lose the rhythm?

[Scot Holder]

Is there any way to not get so distracted by other people's (or even sometimes your own) mistakes that you yourself start to lose the rhythm?

A great question - one that applies to everything in life, really.  My Achilles heel when performing has always been playing in front of non-responsive crowds.   It used to bother me a lot, but it doesn't really affect me any more. 

Unfortunately, I did not consciously do anything to 'fix' the problem so I do not have any specific methods or techniques to pass on as advice.  It may just be that I'm older and I'm more comfortable with who I am and who I am not.  I did have a long absence from playing, and now that I'm playing again, I'm very thankful to be enjoying the music.  So it's probably just my sheer joy of playing that takes my focus away from mistakes.  I still strive to be a better musician, but we are all imperfect...

[Matthew Warwick]

^Yeah I've had to learn to not go so hard at perfection because whenever I do, I end up ignoring what may have small mistakes but is still good enough.

Also, Jon E, you mentioned subdividing...that reminds me of yet another little thing that has been bugging me. Even though I've gained more ability as far as playing a groove more cleanly and on the beat in the past few months, it still takes a lot of focus for me to execute this at the level of accuracy I want. Will I ever just be able to let go and play things as good as if I were focused or will there always need to be some significant focus involved? Sometimes I just want to get into the music, and as you said, sometimes you just need to subdivide on those songs where not everything is right on the quarter notes or eighth notes. But I wish I could just "feel it" on more basic song structures. Whenever I just "feel it", though, I don't play as cleanly or accurately as when I am paying attention to what I'm doing, even on really straightforward songs. Paying TOO MUCH attention or focusing on the wrong thing is when I'm at my worst, and I'm still trying to find the balance and maintain it. This has made it a real nightmare sometimes for dealing with the two issues in the title of this thread.

To check on how my playing sounds when I'm playing with a band and without any metronomes or songs, I recorded myself on two songs today in church by leaving my Iphone in the back of the sanctuary with the voice memo app on "record". Today (especially during those two songs), I tried to count through my fills a bit more and for the most part they sounded pretty good. I guess I'll just have to devote time to practice.

I notice also noticed, however, that at times my groove still isn't as clean as I want it. From what I heard, my tempo has definitely gotten more even. And based on what a few people on here told me in another thread, I've become okay with those single missed notes here and there. On good days when I'm playing along to music that is about the extent of my timing issues for the most part. But when I'm playing with a band and I don't have any beat to follow except the one in my head, I have those moments when I miss several in a very short period of time, and they tend to happen on a somewhat regular basis (like once or twice a minute, sometimes close together). What am I doing wrong?

I hope I'm not becoming a bother with all my questions, but I'm very passionate about drumming, and I'd like to reach a point where I'll have habitually become much less sloppy.

[Bob Dias]

A couple of thoughts:

1. You cannot sing/count/play and tink about all of them. You can really only think about any at on etime, but the rest have to be AUTOMATIC. For me, I have think about singing, so the drumming and ALL that goes with it absolutely MUST be akin to involuntary muscle memory.  There was a great quote: an amature practices so as to get it right; a pro practices so as to never git it wrong. You gotta be a pro at at least 2/3s of the above to make it all work seemlessly.

2. Others mistakes: Some votes count more than others. some mistakes are more glaring than others, some more easily recoverable.  If you drop a beat, just ride on a cymbal until you figure out where everyone is...it usually takes no more than a measure or two . Fiddle with your snare, it'll look like a mechanical issue.  9 times out of 10, the audience can't tell anyways.

3. Playing through transitions...jon has it right. Quit counting. that never really helps unless you are trying to learn something entirely new.  You need to feel it...it in time.  There is a GREAT video, a lesson by Carmine Appice at one of the drum shows talking about how we are the ONE engine in the band that drive the bus. Go watch it and chek out how he gets around his kit for fills etc. That really solidified how I think about playing transitions. The video is here on DC somewhere.

Keep working at it, but remember to have fun!

[Matthew Warwick]

3. Playing through transitions...jon has it right. Quit counting. that never really helps unless you are trying to learn something entirely new.  You need to feel it...it in time.  There is a GREAT video, a lesson by Carmine Appice at one of the drum shows talking about how we are the ONE engine in the band that drive the bus. Go watch it and chek out how he gets around his kit for fills etc. That really solidified how I think about playing transitions. The video is here on DC somewhere.

^I'm a little confused...didn't Jon say that subdividing helped? I thought that involved counting?

And as for "feeling it", do you mean playing without paying attention? Because I consistently find that I play cleaner when I do pay attention. I hear myself get off sometimes even when I turn my head to look around at something when I'm playing unless I actively listen when I do so. Does feeling it mean not listening and not paying attention? Or does it just mean you don't micromanage what you're doing?

Just to clarify what I mean by "clean" playing, I mean that sometimes my notes aren't as even as I'd like them to be, both in fills and in my groove (though I think my groove has improved somewhat in the past few months). My quarter notes are doing great and my tempo seems consistent enough for me, but sometimes with eights and 16ths (the "and", "e", and "a" notes) they seem to "swing" a little bit at times. It's particularly noticeable when a guitar or someone else is playing eights with me and this happens. I'd like to get it down to where it's only single notes that get a little off here and there. Sometimes it's a small cluster of them.

[Jon E]

I've been playing a long time, and I am far from a perfectionist, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  But....  I'm with Bob on the fact that not everything will always be perfect all of the time.  Should it be?  That's up to you.  I only been in a few situations in my life where perfection was "needed". I'm not a slacker by any means, but if SportsCenter is on the TV at the bar, I can still play the tunes and keep an eye on the sports highlights too!  Music (in my mind) in supposed to be fun, not "work".  Sure, I work at it, but I have a lot more fun with it.

I hope it's fun for you.

RE: my subdividing comments....  those where directed more toward your slow, rubato singer issue.  In that case, subdividing and just doing YOUR thing is the probably best.  In that type of song the audience is listening to the singer emote, and couldn't give a crud about what the drummer is doing anyway.  :^)

[Bob Dias]

"Feeling it" = complete attentiveness to what ALL are doing withing the confines of the music....and understanding and being ok with the idea that not all 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 th notes are created equal.

[Scot Holder]

"Feeling it" = complete attentiveness to what ALL are doing withing the confines of the music....and understanding and being ok with the idea that not all 1/4, 1/8, 1nd 1/16 th notes are created equal.

What a great, succinct definition!  I'm saving this one. Thanks Bob!

[Matthew Warwick]

What a great, succinct definition!  I'm saving this one. Thanks Bob!

+1. Thanks for that definition!

[piccupstix]

Fantastic subject here and such informative responses! The subject of time and its mastery is probably the most talked about and most important issue in drumming besides technique, and in fact, it is technique. I've been following this and the other threads closely. Matthew...all I can say is I'll be reading your book you better write after you get this all figured out!

One question that stands out for me is: Do you have to ignore someone else's "free form" approach to the music? I also mostly have played with vocalists who keep the rhythm steady, but when I play with a vocalist who doesn't it can drive me bonkers. I always had a fast rule that I should follow the vocalist beause it's their thing and we accompany them. I'm re-thinking that. They're not necessarily wrong when they move in and out of the rhythm of the song. They have their own style and phrasings that make them unique and can work for the song. If I listen to them and get swayed by them I might start wavering the beat. So I'll try to go inward and concentrate even more on the rhythm.

Now, my rule would apply if the singer actually turned the beat around. He's up there in the spot light! I might just go with him if it keeps it happening. It's a tough one bcause other musicians might stubbornly keep it "right" and it could end up a train wreck. That's an extreme and not exactly the subject here.

Listening or ignoring can apply to all instruments. I practice "time" all of the time and always felt I had a handle on it. But when I get on stage - and when I'm listening and interacting with the band - I will get affected by somebody else's time. It could be any instrument, vocals, or background vocals. I know we are the bus drivers in the band. Things are not always perfect on stage. If I have somebody "hot" in my monitor mix and they're not exactly locked in I will be influenced by it. I think small differences, well within the ballpark, are fine and can help the music breathe, but then I have a very strong (band leader) bass player who can get very regimental about where the beat should lay. If it's close enough anyway I don't like to fight it out. Maybe I should admire the bass player's sensitivity to meter, but if it's close enough I don't feel it will make or break the song.

A couple of nights ago I was with this same bass player and we had a guitar player who had a different feel than our regular guitarist. I thought the guitar player was within acceptable parameters but the bass player seemed to fight it out all night and it wasn't a pleasant experience. I was right next to the guitar player's amplifier and it was just about all I could hear. The bass player suggested I put an ear plug in my left ear to block him out.

I like listening to everybody and playing off each other and having a good time...sometimes it's too much work.