Any suggestions to help my hands

[clearseawater]

Hi everyone(im the newbie)

Bad news: Ive been diagnosed with Arthritis for 18yrs..
Badder News : for the last 7yrs it has effected my technique(playing 25yrs)

I have to have many steroid injections into my hands and I have had to change my playing styles more than once.
I dont want to think that I will have to give the drums up as its really the main focus in my life (apart from my family)

Can anybody give me some advice as I am living the nightmare that we have all drempt

[felix]

Try that Viox drug...my mom and dad swear by it and they are pushing 70.

It runs in my family also.  I already feel it my finger joints now and then and I'm only in my mid 30's.

I run my hands under warm water sometimes and that helps...once I get playing I don't notice it.

[Bart Elliott]

I would think stretching out and warming up the hands before you play would be a big plus. Loosening up and getting the blood flowing is really going to reduce the discomfort.

[clearseawater]

Thanks for the advise everyone but my hands are quite damaged from my condition. I have lost range in my left thumb(as well as a number of my fingers are now bent) and I find it hard to grip and so I have had to change my styles on more than one occasion.

Stretching only agrovates my condition and Im on Salphasalazine to help with my Carpal Tunnel and tendonitis that I get with my form of Arthritis.

It scares the hell outa me as my specialist doesnt realise what drumming means too me..

Any organisations for drummers like me so I could share my thoughts would be appreciated .....thanks

[felix]

Well, here's another option than MS sufferers consider and many use finding great relief.

Bee venom therapy.  I saw this thing on TV last night where these people who couldn't walk or see would sting themselves with honey bees.  After a few weeks they start getting feeling back, sight back, man they were walking around.

People also use it with arthritis they said to, but the focus was on MS.

They don't understand how it works yet, but if you aren't allergic to bee stings you ought to give it a try if nothing else works.

Good luck
Felix

[rlhubley]

Trust me on this one.  For arthritus or carpel tunnel syndrome, go see a good chiropractor.

[clearseawater]

Thanx Felix....ill probably have to wait till spring but I will look into it.......though British springs can be rather cold and DAMP.

I tend to fast as much as possible to control the pain
(IM NOT A DOCTOR SO DONT ANYBODY COPY ME. IT JUST SEEMS TO HELP MY CONDITION)

[James Walker]

Trust me on this one.  For arthritus or carpel tunnel syndrome, go see a good chiropractor.

Another option, especially if your problems are linked directly to (and especially if they are caused by) your playing:  find a therapist in your area who specializes in musician-related injuries.  Many years ago, I read a magazine article by Steve Rodby (Chicago bassist, with the Pat Metheny Group), and he related how when he was having problems with the fingers of his left hand, he went to someone who was not a specialist in music-related injuries, and this individual did not even think that Steve had a problem ("...You're fine - those are the fastest fingers I've ever seen," or something like that, was his reply when examining Steve's hand).  Find someone who knows what to look for when dealing with musicians' injuries.

[felix]

Yeah, my guitar player had to go to a specialist in California for his carpel T...the dude fixed him right up.

[clearseawater]

Thanks for the advice every one.....Ive hooked up with a physio at my local Hospital and ive been told I have lost range again(very agressive, my type of Arthritis is) and that I may never get that movement back.....I do work my hands and I dont sit back and let my disease take hold if I can help it BUT stretching is apparently NOT good for my hands (I have been told off buy the specialist). James, I think your advice is something I will have to look into as (to be fair) the physio doesnt understand the mechanics of drumming(very nice person though) (suggesting that wrist splints would not affect technique). I am going to show her how and why by taking sticks in and my trusted limpet pad but i may end up banging my head agaist a brick wall on this one. They deal with guitarists but Im the first drummer (I suppose the understanding is, why would someone continue if they were in pain and drumming is just a bash, bash exercise...you dont use wrists and fingers).
I have been told that maybe my workouts with heavy sticks may have to be modified (i do this because it keeps my chops up, speed and endurance as well even though the last 7years of this has seen a major performance drop in me because of its destructive nature on my joints and tendons) but I used to play trad grip and then I had to change that, so i had to work to get the matched grip happening and NOW I have to change that. Steroid injections are no longer working and I am prone to drop the sticks more often now so its looking kind of bleak at the moment.
Word of advice guys.....if you get a pain in your big toes dont egnore it like I did, go to a doctor and get it checked out.....this is how it started for me (of coarse it could be nothing-as i dont mean to panick anyone- but many types of Arthritis start this way, and please DO IT if you have a history of it in your family)
ME....I keep fighting

[clearseawater]

Looks like I may be facing a cross roads now.......

Trad grip dont work anymore and now matched grip :(
The physio can do no more for me and they believe drumming is making it worse for my hand condition :(

My treatement now consists of cold hand baths then warm followed by cold again. My hands are then places in warm petrolium wax and covered with a towel :(

Steroids are no longer working and they dont want to open my left hand up because they feel its risky as heavy scar tissue can form and make the condition even worse..........

If any of you guys know of drummers that have adapted around this please let me know as well.....Im kinda tearing my hear out.......

[felix]

I told you to look up the honey bee sting therapy...I know it sounds crazy but you should check it out.  It is used for multiple schlerosis and advanced arthritis.

How are you going to shred the advanced ostinatos being in pain like that?

http://www2.shore.net/~spectrum/apitherapy.html

[clearseawater]

Felix......ive a lot to learn about you my man.....one minute you are cleaving peoples heads and  the next you sound slightly compasionate ;)

To be honest, I forgot about the bee theraphy that you said I should look into so i'll do that this week.

I have been looking for extream therapys for years......Fasting for days seems to be the most effective but im open to any new angles.

This thread does seem to be all about ME so anybody that has ANY problems with their hands pain wise feel free to ask advice from all of us as we use our hands and from time to time we may need some help .

"Lets look after each other"........how about that for a concept.

[rlhubley]

I'm telling you man, I've talked to many good chiropractors who have cured caprpel tunnel for many patients.  CTS is common in office workers and people who are in front of the computer a lot.  Go to a good chiropractor.  Avoid surgery.  AND/OR try the bee thing!!

[clearseawater]

rlhubley, thanks for your concern but my Carpal T and Tendonitis is created by my form of Arthritis. My technique has never caused me any troubles it has  always been my condition.

My form of Arthritis come from the Rhemotoid line(Psoriatic Arthritis). As it is a genetic condition and at the moment science believes that a virus enters the body at somepoint and mimics body proteins. The atibodies attack this unatural body but as it mimics my dna my immune system also attacks me. The proteins that it attacks are located around all my joints, muscles and soft body tissues like tendons. So my anti-bodies view my tendons as the enemy and attacks which intern inflames the sheaths around my tendons which creates a signal to my body to send MORE antibodies to help and so the circle continues. So my body as a protective measure restricts movement of the joint/soft tissues and this effects my technique (im approx 40% down speed wise over the last 7 years :(  ).

I have had a great deal of physio and everybody has told me more or less the same that it is something that I must accept. Im on a drug called Sulphasalazine that is designed to slow the Auto-immune responce in the areas of the tendons as well as recieving frequent steroid jabs.

Now, Docs are human and ofcoarse they can be wrong so I do kinda hope theres an answer somewhere that the blinkered "Western World" has missed.

If they open my hands up my immune responce could end my drumming completely and well.....im pretty scared frankly, i really am.

My case isnt the norm as regard Tendonitis and Carpal T.

The reason why I FAST is it actually has an effect on my immune system and suppresses its responce which allows me about 15% less pain..

But I do apreciate people reading this......it is a major problem in my drumming life BUT as ive said, anybody at the forum, Feel free to air your hand problems on this thread..

[iluvatars_dog]

I Do not know if it nessary relates. But Ihave see folks with joints arthritis. condition Show sign of improvemeant  afther takeing up tai chi exercises.
 And in fact have been showing my mum some of these  she has some problems in her hands.
Of couser you  can beat professional help.
 But I will try and find out more about this subject.
 Of my tai chi teaher who is aslo professional trained . In the medcal field. I talk to him soon and see what finding I can make.

[clearseawater]

Hi iluvatars_dog, I havnt seen you in ages....how have you been.

Thanks for the advice and yes any info would be welcome.

One of the problems I am trying to fight is the buildup of scar tissue that is created with long term Tendonitis. These scars have a bad side effect as regards chops performance.....the surrounding tissues change their makeup and become less flexable so a slowing happens.

Drumming and Arthritis is a bad mix in the medicals eyes as it can sometimes inflame active joints.

Im not about to lay my sticks down yet but it is really heart breaking when you find your tech is being eaten away by your own body, Its like you are DE-EVOLVING as a player and it hurts.

Apart from the wrist changes the fine control that you get from your fingers can be compromised somewhat.

[Simon B]

I totally endorse what was said about trying T'ai Chi - in fact Traditional Chinese medicine in general. In particular acupuncture can be very powerful - I know one lady who has a horrific back condition, who swears that her weekly acupunture session keeps her out of a wheelchair. My mother has rheumatoid arthritis and has found acupuncture very effective, too.

In terms of joint maintainence / rebuilding do you take the relevant vitamin/mineral supplements, esp. glucosomine sulphate?

Simon B


Simon B

[Misenko]

Tai Chi would be pretty good I think. I have a freind who does it and he says it really does wonders for you, OK, so he doesn't have and joint problems, but I expect it would help! If what the docs do doesn't help, try the alternatives! :)

Misenko.

[clearseawater]

Simon B, thanks for that and yes, I do take suppliments.......Fish Oils with the B8 component protein.

I have also been under the London Homeopathic hospital as well and that alternative theraphy did'nt work. I tried Chinese medicine for about a year but the pluses wer'nt that great for me and the side effects were quite bad.

As regards the gentle exercise of Tai Chi, I do somewhat similar things with my hands to keep what movement I have a tad longer. Sadly most of my practase time is taken up by trying to keep my chop speeds up (or what I have left) and somedays I have very little time left to devote to learning new concepts(and im trying real hard with all the Ostinato stuff I always bang on about)..

[clearseawater]

BO733, I cant understand why you are repeating something Bart said and you not add something of your own.

Could you please expand on Barts thoughts......

As regards my condition simply stretching out and loosening up doesnt cover it as it would normally.

If you read my posts I explane that I have Arthritis and different techniques should be used otherwise damage can be done.

Without sounding elitist I am an experienced drummer that does understand the importance of a good grip technique but my situation is maybe not the norm, infact it isnt.

A lot of drummers give up with my joint damage so I was looking for alternatives to the usual advice.

[felix]

My grand mum and my mum both had/have it pretty bad where their finger joints got all twisted up.

I get it now and then...this morning I had it in my right hand.  

It wasn't because of improper technique either...I'm getting old I think...great.

[Peter Jeffery]

Having some prolonged pain in the two small fingers and joints of each hand....first time this happened.   Must be from too much shock (I hope).   We've been playing bigger stages lately and judging from my slightly pinged heads...I'm hitting harder than usual.   Anybody have a remedy?   I'm thinking ibuprofen.   ???

[felix]

OH you poor little rock star.

There has to be something better around than motrin.

I found this new drink combination...red bull and skyy vodka ...the combination will make you feel like a teenager...unfortunately you will be drunk- which might affect your playing.

[BO733]

clearseawater - hi. Hey I have no idea what the heck that post was.  ??? I am sorry.  But I have found a great thing that a lady at work suggested for carpel tunnel and tendonitis. They are Chinese balls that you roll in the palm of your hand. I have a set and use them all the time for stress and warming up. They just require a "rolling" of the fingers and non-stress movement of the hands. I'm not sure what they're called, but I'm sure you've seen them. They are two solid "balls" and some of them have a kind of chime inside. Seriously, they help. I type a lot at work and my hands get fatigued; so I take a break and use the balls. I hope that might help.

And I really didn't mean to just copy what Bart said. I think I was trying to quote and then add. I really am sorry about that man. And my wife might know some ideas as far as vitamins or mineral supplements; she works at a health food store. Again -- It was just an error. :-[  You mentioned you've tried a lot of things and supplements -- but I'll dig some more and try and help.

[BO733]

Ok. I have been doing some research. I've been using a reference book that is called "Prescription for Nutritional Healing". Clearseawater -- I realize that what you have is Arthritis -- which is more severe than CTS or Tendonitis, (but those rolling balls do help) And as serious as your condition is, I hope you accept my sincere apology for making that mistake. ;)

So, this may be long-winded but it is directly from the source that my wife suggested:

"Rhematoid Arthritis(RA) : a type of inflammatory arthritis, is an autoimmune disorder. An overactive immune system can be just as harmful as a weak one. As with other autoimmune disorders, RA is a "self-attacking-self" disease. In this case, the body's immune system improperly identifies the synovial membrane as "foreign". Inflammation results, damaging cartilage and tissues in and around the joints. Often, the bone surfaces are destroyed as well because inflammation in the joints triggers the production of enzymes that slowly digest adjacent tissue. The body replaces this damaged tissue with scar tissue, forcing normal spaces within the joints to become narrow and the bones to fuse together. RA creates stiffness, swelling, fatigue, anemia, weight loss, fever, and, often, crippling pain."

Ok -- so this sounds similar (I couldn't find the psyoris type)

So -- here is what the book suggests:

"NUTRIENTS:
Essential:

BROMELAIN -- as directed on label three times a day. COMMENTS -- An enzyme that helps to stimulate production of prostaglandis. Reduces inflammation when taken between meals. Helps digestion of protein when taken with meals.

CHONDROITIN SULFATE -- 500 - 1,000 mg daily.
COMMENTS -- Nutritional support for strengthening joints, ligaments, and tendons.

ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS (Total EFA and EFA Joint Formula from Health From the Sun, omega-3 and omega-6 oil complexes, salmon oil from Carlson Labs, flaxseed oil, Kyolic-EPA from Wakunaga, and Lyprinol are good sources) -- As directed on label twice daily. Take with meals.
COMMENTS -- To supply essential fatty acids that increase production and activity of anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. Helps to control arthritis pain and inflammation.

GLUCOSAMINE SULFATE --(GS-500 from Enzymatic Therapy) -- As directed on label OR N-Acetylglucosamine (N-A-G from Source Naturals) -- 500 - 1,000 mg daily.
COMMENTS -- Very important for the formation of bones, tendons, ligaments, cartilage, and synovial (joint) fluid.

METHYLSULFONYL-METHANE(MSM) -- 500 -1,000 mg 3 times daily. COMMENTS -- A sulpher compound needed for reducing inflammation and for joint and tissue repair.

S-ADENOSYLMETHIONINE(SAMe) (SAMe Rx-Mood from Nature's Plus) -- 400 mg twice daily. COMMENTS -- A deficiency results in the inability to maintain cartilage properly. Aids in reducing pain and inflammation. CAUTION: do not use if you have manic-depressive disorder or take prescription antidepressants.

SEA CUCUMBER (beche-de-mer) -- As directed on label. COMMENTS -- A rich source of specific lubricating compounds found abundantly in all connective tissues, especially in the joints and joint fluid. It may take 3 to 6 weeks to note an improvement.

SILICA -- As directed on label. COMMENTS -- Supplies silicon, important for formation of apatite crystal, the primary constituent in bone.

SUPEROXIDE DISMUTASE (SOD) -- as directed on label.COMMENTS -- An antioxident that protects fluid in the joints from destruction by free radicals. A sublingual form is recommended. Consider injections (under a doctor's supervision). OR
CELL GUARD from Biotec Foods -- as directed on label COMMENTS -- an antioxident complex that contains SOD.

TRIETHYLGLYCINE  (TMG) -- 500 - 1,000 mg in the morning. COMMENTS -- reduces homocysteine levels.

VITAMIN E -- 400-800 IU daily. COMMENTS-- A powerful antioxident that protects the joints from damge by free radicals. Increases joint mobility. Low levels of vitamin E have been found in people with arthritis and lupus. Use d-alpha-tocopherol form. CAUTION: If you are taking blood-thinning medication, consult your physician before taking this supplement."

There is a list of VERY IMPORTANT supplements and HELPFUL supplements in the book as well. I can send you those if you would like. But here goes nothing in the Herbal category:

"Alfalfa contains all the minerals essential for bone formation, and may be helpful for arthritis. It can be taken in capsules or in whole, natural form. Kelp also contains essential minerals and is good for thyroid function.

Boswellia, an Ayurvedic herb, is important for reducing inflammation. It also helps restore blood vessels around inflammed connective tissue. Choose a product standardized to contain 150 milligrams of boswellic acids per tablet or capsule. Boswellia can also be used topically, in cream form, to relieve pain. Boswellin Cream from Nature's Herbs is a good source.

Cat's Claw is helpful for relieving arthritis pain. Feverfew and ginger also are good for pain and soreness. Ginger is a powerful antioxident that has anti-inflammatory effects. The active component is gingerol.

The hot peppers known as cayenne (capsium) contain a compound called capsaicin that relieves pain, appernetly by inhibiting the release of substance P, a neurotransmitter responsible for communicating pain sensations. Capsaicin can be absorbed through the skin. Mix cayenne powder with enough wintergreen oil to make a paste and apply it to painful joints, or use cayenne peppers in a poultice. This may cause a stinging sansation at first, but with repeated use, pain should diminish markedly. Cayenne can also be taken in capsule form (Cool Cayenne from Solaray is a good source).

Du Huo Jisheng Wan is an herbal Chinese patent medicine that has proven to be beneficial for arthritis sufferers.

Joint Care from Himalaya USA is an Ayurvedic herbal combination formula designed to support joint health.

Nettle leaf is used in Germany for its anti-inflammatory properties.

Noni, known a "the sacred plant" to Polynesian peoples in the South Pacific, has been used for over 2,000 years for pain, arthritis, and other health problems.

Phytodolor from either PhytoPharmica or Enzymatic Therapy is a patented blend of ash bark, aspen bark, and goldenrod. It has been used in Germany for both osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis for more than thirty years.  Reseach has found it to be safe and easy on the stomach. CAUTION: Do not use this formula if you are sensative to salicylates.

Tumeric contains curcumin, which has anti-inflammatory and pain relieving properties. It is good for inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. The recommended dose is 600 milligrams daily.

Other beneficial herbs include brigham tea, buchu leaves, burdock root, celery seed, corn silk, devil's claw tea, horsetail, nettle, parsley tea, willow bark, and yucca."

So that's straight from that book. The authors are MD's and it is a huge book with lots of info. There are more things about RA in it -- especially dealing with diet. Please let me know if this helps.  It was written in 2000, so I think it's reliable and up to date.  

I asked my wife her opinion -- she gave the "bible" (the book I just quoted from) and she also suggests that you soak your hands and wrists (which I know you've done) with warm water and Epsom salt (you can buy it at the grocery store.
Hope you get feeling better. :)  AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!