Improving my jazz 'Fours'

[Jim Martin (cavanman)]

I've been playing a straight ahead jazz guitar trio gig semi-regularly, meaning once every month and a half.
For better for worse (depending on the night) I get lots of opportunities to do 'fours'.
I can do them - I'm just not wild about my ideas. When I think of guys I like it usually falls to someone liike Jeff 'Tain' Watts or Jack DeJohnette.

At D.C. we've thrown around different books to check out but I probably need to get a referral for developing more advanced rhythmic techniques for soloing and fours. Perhaps one of the Gary Chaffee books. I just don't know which one covers that kind of material. Material like phrases of 5 over triplets and beyond is what I have in mind.
I used to have a book called Different Drummers by Billy Mintz but can't find it these days. It contained alot of transcription style pieces that showed the styles of Elvin Jones, Tony, Jack DeJohnette, etc. Don't know if that's what I'm looking for either. I looked through Bart's list (which looks great and I already own a few of those books) but couldn't tell which of those went in the direction I'm looking for.

Also, I'm behind on my jazz listening and want to pinpoint buying a few CD's. I'd like some small group straight ahead CD's that feature some great example of contemporary 'fours' (and 'eights', etc.). I know that guys like Philly Joe did some cool things but instead of going into the WayBack Machine (with Mr. Peabody), I need to go hit current guys with a bit more current approaches. Please keep in mind I know of CD's with good timekeeping, I'm really looking for good examples of fours.

Keep in mind I'm trying to be kind of surgical here. I have other things to practice and need to just get some very directed book(s) and listening material as I already have some jazz books and CD's available.

Thanks in advance jazz dudes!  :D

Jim

[James Walker]

I'd like some small group straight ahead CD's that feature some great example of contemporary 'fours' (and 'eights', etc.). I know that guys like Philly Joe did some cool things but instead of going into the WayBack Machine (with Mr. Peabody), I need to go hit current guys with a bit more current approaches.

I'll leave the CD suggestions to others, but don't dismiss the older stuff out of hand.  One thing to keep in mind is that the "current guys" all learned from someone, and the work of the past generations (Philly Joe, Tony, Elvin, Art, et al) is a direct resource for the contemporary drummer's vocabulary.  If you want to have some Bill Stewart in your playing, for example, listen to the guys who  influence Bill Stewart.  Having the same influences may not make you sound like Bill, but it'll give you some of the same source material he had to work with.

Fours are tough to work on by yourself.  Is there anyone you can get together to play with, just for fun, just to have someone to work off of?  The old solitary practice routine of "four bars time, four bars solo" gets really old really fast, IMHO.  Get a horn player, get a piano player, get SOMEONE, so you're not only working on four bar phrases, you're working on communicating with another musician, and working on creating a coherent musical statement.

[paul]

One of the things I do when trading fours with someone is to play his patterns back to him, with variation.  It forces me to listen to the other soloist more closely, while relieving some of the need for me to come up with new ideas.  Done well, it also gives that part of the song consistency and musical logic.

Another thing you can do is sing the melody to yourself in your head, and play variations on its rhythm when it's your turn.

Fours are fun.

[Jim Martin (cavanman)]

Let me maybe modify my request to ask for CD recommendations of some of the older guys that are out there (Elvin Jones and Jack DeJohnette for prime examples). I would want a referral for a CD that really displayed fours - i.e. not just open solos or occassional fours.


BTW: Paul I actually do use some of those concepts you mentioned but am looking to cook up my own stuff.
However, I do try to avoid what's called 'chasing' which is  basically parroting/duplicating a solo figure while playing time. I stopped trying to do this after a lesson with Tom Brechtlein who said Joe Farrell asked him to not do that. Not the same concept but thinking in similar fashions.
If I listen to say "Four and More" I hear Tony Williams and Herbie Hancock obviously playing off of each other - but not just by copying each other's licks. Their ideas are suggestive of similar natures but are not carbon copies. I do appreciate your input though.


Jim

[Jim Martin (cavanman)]

Also:

James

I actually have a very good jazz guitarist as a roommate. We can definitely do that. I'm just trying to get more advanced concepts ingrained in my hands and my head. If I don't progress there than the fours will remain conceptually where they are.
Good point though.

Jim

[Matt Self (Gaddabout)]

Also:

James

I actually have a very good jazz guitarist as a roommate. We can definitely do that. I'm just trying to get more advanced concepts ingrained in my hands and my head. If I don't progress there than the fours will remain conceptually where they are.
Good point though.

Jim

Jim, I think you're a good candidate to stop listening to other drummers and start listening to other instrumentations. You'd be amazed what you can translate into innovative drumming by listening to Charlie Parker, Ornette Coleman, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea ... players that incorporated complex rhyhtmic ideas into their melodies. Sometimes coming from another angle opens up a whole new train of thought.

At my old jazz gig, the band leader, Chuck, called me and told me to be prepared to play an old McCoy Tyner tune, "Four by Five." I'd played before, but nothing like Elvin (duh). I sat there all night dreading trading eights on that song. It's fast and I have a hard enough time just trying to keep time (I'm not a great swinger)! Joe Henderson plays a KILLER solo, though, and I tried to imagine what that solo sounded like on a drum set. I literally memorized Henderson's solo and kept it in mind the next night when I started trading eights with Chuck. He came up after me and said my stuff blew him away. I was just interpretating another instrument to the drum set.

Anyway, FWIW ...

[drwalker]

Another thing you can do is sing the melody to yourself in your head, and play variations on its rhythm when it's your turn.

Paul, this exactly what my jazz instructor tells me all the time!  He says this is the best way to hear what you want to play..


dw

[Alex Sanguinetti]

I think your main action should be, if you already undertand well more traditional jazz soloists than the ones you mentioned and have enough knowledge and technique to approach jazz in that manner,  to work on transcribe (your OWN transcriptions) the phrases you like from these drummers to add them to your own VOCABULARY, or to understand their vocabulary for building similar ideas.

Another important thing is to take private lessons with TOP jazz drummers, with drummers YOU ADMIRE.

Here you can watch a VIDEO of me trading 12's on blues harmony  (VIDEO is almost 20 years old):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6kGkGZuQtc#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6kGkGZuQtc#

Best regards from Valencia, Spain!

Alex Sanguinetti