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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: dannydrumperc on November 01, 2004, 07:54 AM

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 01, 2004, 07:54 AM
I have read it twice trying to understad how a snaredrum that is tuned in the tom-tom range and with the snares so loose that it resonate for more than one second it is still a good sounding snaredrum ???

And what about the tom-toms? If they are tuned lower than that same snare drum, how should they sound like? Bass drums?

I still don't get it.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 01, 2004, 09:26 AM
I have read it twice trying to understad how a snaredrum that is tuned in the tom-tom range and with the snares so loose that it resonate for more than one second it is still a good sounding snaredrum ???

And what about the tom-toms? If they are tuned lower than that same snare drum, how should they sound like? Bass drums?

I still don't get it.

I need to go pick up a copy of this month's issue  - I thumbed through it last week at the local newsstand, and read thru Billy's article.  I'm going by what I remember, so my apologies in advance if I'm way off base on this one.  (Jeez, this is gonna be two MD issues in a row that I will have bought...I may need to subscribe again after all...)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC...didn't he write something about the snare drum being tuned to a pitch in-between those of his higher toms?  Even if he didn't propose it, that's what I'd try - there's no reason why the snare drum has to be the highest-pitched instrument on the set.  As long as the snare drum isn't the same pitch as a tom (basically), it should work fine to have a tom pitched above the snare.

If you want to hear how a really low-tuned snare drum can sound (and sound good, IMHO), check out some of the tracks on Steve Jordan's DVD...it's a different sound, to be sure, but I kinda like it.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Jim Martin (cavanman) on November 01, 2004, 10:00 AM
If you want to hear how a really low-tuned snare drum can sound (and sound good, IMHO), check out some of the tracks on Steve Jordan's DVD...it's a different sound, to be sure, but I kinda like it.

Or Jim Keltner on many different tracks (Delbert McClinton has some good ones).

I liked Billy's idea and tried it already. It does work but it is a contextual solution. He also has a disclaimer near the beginning that states: "...my approach is not endorsed by any drum company. It's simply the way I personally hear things."
He also mentions the concept of "reserving a pitch zone" for the snare that doesn't conflict (i.e. sympathetically buzz) with the tom notes.

He also approaches using a two tom setup differently than a four tom setup.

The primary idea I get from the article is that you can experiment with the "reserved pitch zone" concept and maybe simultaneously open yourself up to new sound ideas. If you are so blessed, you can try this with different size snares too. Calling Dr. Walker, Dr. James Walker. LOL!

And also just to reiterate this concept of Billy's article: It's a personal approach. Which can work for some and not work for others
*I just know that 563 is going to chime in here any moment! ;D

I'm having fun with it.  :)

Jim
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 01, 2004, 10:02 AM
Hi J,

Well, maybe I need to listen to some more music and check out that kind of snare drum sound before experimenting with mines.

About the tom-toms:

It says that when he uses a traditional set-up (just 2 tom-toms), his first tom-tom is lower than the snare drum (don't remember if it is a fourth or fifth below) and the next drum is a full octave below the previews. I dont know, but my experience tuning low is that the tone gets lost, and I end just having punch; and I mean thats fine for a very aggressive approach to drumming as needed in metal and the likes, but not for every style.

Dont know, maybe I tune my drums lower than the drummers that he wanted to reach.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 01, 2004, 11:24 AM


About the tom-toms:

It says that when he uses a traditional set-up (just 2 tom-toms), his first tom-tom is lower than the snare drum (don't remember if it is a fourth or fifth below) and the next drum is a full octave below

Yeah...I remember the toms being an octave apart - thanks for setting me straight regarding the rest of it.  (I just hit the local "big box" bookstore while I was out running some errands, and they've already got the December MD issue on the stands...the bastards!).  I'll have to hit the local music store - they usually don't turn over magazines quite so promptly.

I'm going to wait to re-read the article before I offer any more opinions on what Billy wrote..

The primary idea I get from the article is that you can experiment with the "reserved pitch zone" concept and maybe simultaneously open yourself up to new sound ideas. If you are so blessed, you can try this with different size snares too. Calling Dr. Walker, Dr. James Walker. LOL!

I'll see what I can do, esp. after re-reading the article.  It may have to wait until my next drum-building project - which will either be a 10" tom (my smallest is a 12) or a 16" snare drum.

Yeah, a 16.  Crazy!  (http://community.drummercafe.com/Images/emoticons/freak.gif)

;D
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 01, 2004, 03:20 PM
FWIW...

I took one of my snare drums earlier this afternoon, and tried bringing the pitch down below my highest tom.  It sounded like I was playing my 45RPM record at 33-1/3.  ;)  I'm still curious to experiment with it, tho, after I get ahold of Billy's article again.

I was wondering:  has anyone hear checked out Billy's instructional DVD?  If so, does he use a snare drum with this sort of tuning, on the disc?  Keeping in mind the obvious caveats of judging a snare drum sound off of a recording, I'd be curious to hear it "straight from the horse's mouth"...or drum, as the case may be.  ;)

Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 01, 2004, 07:16 PM
well,

i for one, dont really like BW's snare sound.  too sloppy.  but then again, he's touring the world with that snare sound.  *shrug*

and JW,

yea, he does use this tuning on his DVD.  his snare is actually a pitch lower than his 10" tom.  thus, his 13x5 alumnium sits right between his 10" and 12" tom pitches.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: JeepnDrummer on November 01, 2004, 10:28 PM
His DVD is awesome.......highly recommended.  BTW, if you order one from his web site your name goes in a drawing for a DW aluminum snare drum.

He uses several snare drums in the video, but I don't know how he tuned them.  I do like the sound from his aluminum drum, though.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: AndyEdwards on November 04, 2004, 11:06 AM
I think a lot of drummers go for that tight snare sound but drummers I know who get a lot of work tend to have a lower sound with looser snares.
I think this sound might fit into a song context a bit better (maybe)

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 04, 2004, 11:51 AM
Yeah.
I'd say I most often aim for a mid-range pitch.
The high pitched Chili Peppers or Spin Doctors snare sound really grates on me these days.
For recording I like to shoot for a big, rich snare sound.
I admit I choose higher tunings for gigging though.
1) Less scope for the snare tuning to slip.
2) It's more easy to pick out your snare work away from all the mid range frequencies of the guitars and keyboards.
I prefer to hear my snare acoustically, rather than through monitoring. With lower tunings I tend to hammer the snare, resulting in a trashed left arm and snare batter.  :P
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 04, 2004, 01:50 PM
I think a lot of drummers go for that tight snare sound but drummers I know who get a lot of work tend to have a lower sound with looser snares.
I think this sound might fit into a song context a bit better (maybe)



of course,

its all about context.  its madness to use a 10x5.5 picc in a celine ballad.  unless of course, the song called for it.

but speaking of tight snares, i'm of this school, but hate it formica table top tight, especially on shallow snares like a 13x3.5, etc.  might as well be using... well... a kitchen table.

rather, its cool hearing a deep snare like a 14x6.5 tuned up nice and tight, ala Steve Jordan, Steve Ferrone and Dennis Chambers.  you get that crack, but also a nice body that trails along with it.  instead of a "crack" or "thwack", more like a "thop".
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 04, 2004, 01:59 PM
you get that crack, but also a nice body that trails along with it.  instead of a "crack" or "thwack", more like a "thop".

Isn't that a 50s song?

"Let's go to the thop...
"Let's go to the thop...

"...at the thop!!"
 ;)

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

All seriousness aside...that's one thing I love about my 15" snare drum.  I can tune it up - not "begging for mercy" tight, but moderately tight - and still get that same pitch you'd get from tuning a 14" down, but with faster stick response off of the tighter batter head.  Ditto 13s and 12s - you can get those higher tunings that are possible on a 14, without having to crank the bejeezus out of the batter head.

Or you can tune a 13 down and get more of that "thwak," without having to delve into the '80s power ballad range like you would on a 14.  

Lots of options.  Options are good.

"thop...thwak..."  To adapt a phrase from George Carlin, it's terminology like this that kept me out of the really good schools.  ;)
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: sirdrumalot on November 04, 2004, 06:34 PM
It's a great article, I decided to try tuning my snare like that recently, it sounds great.
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: Chris - on November 04, 2004, 06:41 PM
An easy way that I learned how to relate to his "tunning" was is by singing, "My dog has fleas."  The "My" is what he tunes the snare drum to, followed by the toms.  Hope this helps.  
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 04, 2004, 10:04 PM
(...)

"thop...thwak..."  To adapt a phrase from George Carlin, it's terminology like this that kept me out of the really good schools.  ;)

you'd think with an English degree from NYU, i'd use less onomotopoetic language.  :P

funny, but i actually got chastised by a fellow forumite from the cymbalholic site!

sheesh, i'm a roll, eh?
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: jokerjkny on November 04, 2004, 10:04 PM
An easy way that I learned how to relate to his "tunning" was is by singing, "My dog has fleas."  The "My" is what he tunes the snare drum to, followed by the toms.  Hope this helps.  

so, if i'm using "Here Comes the Bride", which is the snare?  ;)
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: Joe on November 04, 2004, 10:25 PM
so, if i'm using "Here Comes the Bride", which is the snare?  ;)

I'm not Rhythmist, but I personally would assign "Here" to the snare drum (with regard to the spirit of this thread).
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: James Walker on November 04, 2004, 10:32 PM
I'm not Rhythmist, but I personally would assign "Here" to the snare drum.

Either your version of "Here Comes The Bride" is decidedly different from the one I know, or your drum set has a 6x15" snare drum, an 8" rack tom, and a 10" floor tom.  ;)  Isn't "here" the lowest pitch of the phrase?

If we're going by "Here Comes The Bride" as a reference, my snare drum would be the note for "dressed" ("...all dressed in white").

I guess I just think about it differently, tho.  I just try getting each tom to sound its best - getting it to "sing" as best I can - then I bump a given drum's tuning up or down just a bit if adjacent toms (on a larger setup) sound too close in pitch.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Bart Elliott on November 04, 2004, 10:37 PM
you'd think with an English degree from NYU, i'd use less onomotopoetic language.  :P



It's onomatopoetic.   ;)

I think the use of onomatopoetic words is great. The majority of names given to percussion instruments are onomatopoetic. Djembe, Tom-tom, Doumbek, Conga, etc.; their names all describe the sound of the instrument.
(http://community.drummercafe.com/Images/emoticons/offtopic.gif)  Sorry
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: Joe on November 04, 2004, 10:40 PM
Either your version of "Here Comes The Bride" is decidedly different from the one I know, or your drum set has a 6x15" snare drum, an 8" rack tom, and a 10" floor tom.  ;)  Isn't "here" the lowest pitch of the phrase?

I was referring to the lower tuning as professed in this thread, as well as my current preference.  It's not impossible that I missed a tangent that renders my previous post ill-thought, so I apologize if that's so.  

However, when I did have toms, my 10" rack tom did much better at a higher tuning than my snare drum.  I went along with this to avoid the sympathetic buzz so well-known with these drums.  So, I most often used this setup.
Title: For what it's worth..........
Post by: James Walker on November 04, 2004, 10:48 PM
I was referring to the lower tuning as professed in this thread, as well as my current preference.  It's not impossible that I missed a tangent that renders my previous post ill-thought, so I apologize if that's so.  

I realize we're talking about Billy Ward's approach, and specifically the idea of something other than the snare drum having the highest pitch of any drum on the set.  Maybe I misunderstood the reference myself - I'm thinking of all the toms and the snare drum, and perhaps you're just talking about your snare drum and your highest tom.  My apologies if I twisted things around inadvertently.

(Still, I really like the idea of a set with 8" and 10" toms, and a 15" snare drum...maybe a 16" bass drum, and Bermuda's 30" Sabian ride for good measure...)  ;D
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 05, 2004, 06:29 AM
As the originator of the thread, I must say that I'm not still convinced about lowering the tuning of my snare, but I'll check if it is too high. I completely agree with Jojerjkny about high tunings for 6.5 x 14 snare drums because you can achieve the best of both worlds.

I use my 6.5 x 14 mainly for marching-like purposes, so I need it to be as articulated as possible. But I also want it to sound deep. I think I may achieve this by changing its head (maybe the Emperor-X from the other thread). It is currently wearing brand-new 42s (from another thread too), so snare response wont be an issue.

Also agree with Jokerjkny about the shallow 13-inchers, especially if it is going to be used as the only snare drum of in the drum set. I acquired one recently (from another thread, again) and it sounds very nice when tuned low, but I want it to be an effects drum and I need it to be high tuned. It also sounds great that way, but not as versatile as when tuned low. Ill try to change its heads ASAP to dry it a bit too.

I think Mr. Wards approach works better on medium sized snare drums, such as 5 x 14, than in bigger ones, IMHO.

Thank you all guys :-* for your time and interest. This discussion has certainly broadened my conceptions. And sorry for summarizing and concluding my last 4 or 5 threads in this one. Them were all related (at least to me) and peple involved were almost the same. :)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 05, 2004, 06:46 AM
I've never tried having my first rack tom higher in pitch than my snare, but I do tend towards fairly low pitches in my toms.

I have, however, used the octave-between-the-toms thing, but not because I wanted that specific interval, but because that's where each drum happened to sound good. I usually use either a 10 and a 14, or a 12 and a 16, and often find they end up being either an octave or a minor seventh apart.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 05, 2004, 07:02 AM
And what about Mr. Ward's snare tuning suggestions? JW  and Chisso have already stated their points of veiw and you are another of our snare drum topics most trusted consultors.
 ???
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 05, 2004, 07:04 AM
And what about Mr. Ward's snare tuning suggestions? JW  and Chisso have already stated their points of veiw and you are another of our snare drum topics most trusted consultors.
 ???

I haven't read the article yet. Which issue is it (who's on the cover)?
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 05, 2004, 07:09 AM
I don't typically use very loose snare tunings, unless I think a specific song calls for it. But I enjoy fat, colorful snare tunings - Steve Jordan is one of my favorite drummers, and he uses an AMAZING variety of snares and tunings, some of them quite low and dark. Check out his playing on Amanda Marshall's CD "Tuesday's Child" - great stuff!

I recently bought an old 6.5x14 wood drum (see avatar) for the purpose of emulating some of those Jordanesque sounds - I'm trying it out for the first time at soundcheck tomorrow. Don Henley is another guy whose low snare sounds I often dig.

But for general purpose, play-the-whole-gig drumming, I use snares tuned medium tight on top, and very tight on bottom. They feel better and cut through live music more effectively, in my experience. I recently posted examples that show how my snares typically sound - let me know if you can't find the thread.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 05, 2004, 07:47 AM
For my new years resolution I'm going to hide all my drum keys except for one regular and one sonor key.  Then I am going to see how long I can go without tuning any of my drums and take that time to practice.  I'm going to do this for a year.  If I have a gig, I will take a drum key and give myself 30 seconds to tune *maybe, depends how much flack I get from people*.  If I break a head *probably won't* then I guess I'll have to change it out.  Then, when January 2006 rolls around I'll start tuning again.   I need to keep away from mainstream thought, at least for awhile.  Remember when your drums always sounded like ca ca and you couldn't tune to save your life but just played?  I want to get back to that for awhile.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Billy Ward on November 05, 2004, 09:05 AM
Hey!  Well, I've finally joined up here at the Cafe!  Tried last night but couldn't figure out the registering thing.  Somehow today it has worked!  (yes, I'm an idiot!) :D

felix - I LOVE your attitude here.  Be sure and do that!  Sometimes we have to go to extremes to get somewhere - and certainly, if you've been tuning a whole lot in the past, don't do it for a while!

jokerny - Do you HAVE to trumpet EVERYWHERE that you don't like my sound?  :D  just kidding.

Even though a thing like an article is "written", I think that it is important to remember that "nothing is written" (Lawrence of Arabia) when speaking of musical matters!
That said, I write from my own personal perspective in those articles in the hopes to at least light some fires of thought.  Obviously, this article did that!!

Some things to remember:
-there is no accounting for taste (mine included)
-when speaking of tuning drums or the sound of drums there are a million factors:  Some are the drum/the drum materials/the bearing edge/the room in which the drum is being heard.... Also, snare beds are crucial with snare drums as well as the choice of drumhead.  I like Evans heads because of how they sound on my DWs - doesn't mean it should be a law, but there are certain brands of drums and heads that perhaps won't work with what I've written.

I have to get into my day soon buy I will pay attn. here and try to participate in this discussion.  To quickly try to answer some....
If I have a two tom kit - my snare will be the highest pitched
the pitch difference from my 8X12DW to my 13X15 DW is usually betw. a 6th and an octave.  If I set up four toms - I go for as extreme a tuning range as is possible.  Therefore, when John Good picks a ten inch shell for me, he knows that I will be tuning it high - much like others might tune an 8" tom.  I hope this helps -

Also i agree with the idea that the deeper drums don't go as low as the 5 inchers and such.  I mostly have 3-4-5 or 6 inch deep snares, but on the couple of 6 1/2s that I do have, it seems they will go where they want to go and that's it.  But, as i said in the article, I believe that a drum with a flexible tuning range is one of the qualities of a fine instrument and n interesting test for the more expensive snare drums.

This would be easier if you  could visit my discussion forum at my website.  But i will hang here - This is great forum, that's for sure!  I'm happy to get to know you all.

Thanks to JeepnDrummer for alerting me to this thread.  I'll check back in tonight or tomorrow - thanks
-Billy
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 05, 2004, 09:35 AM
Way cool.  Thanks for joining the fray, Billy!  :D
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: JeepnDrummer on November 05, 2004, 09:37 AM
Billy, it's good to know you were finally able to access the forum.  Speculation can be neat and spawn additional ideas, but sometimes it's nice to get the straight poop.  ;D
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Billy Ward on November 05, 2004, 09:45 AM
Thanks!  more connections to our pals!!!

I don't know if I said this in the article (I hope so!), but one thing that I've noticed is that I tune my bottom head loosser than most every snare I ever encounter.  DW has a gentle slope on it's snare bed that allows this.  Can't say it will work with those radio king style grand canyon beds!
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 05, 2004, 09:55 AM
Thomas Lang is on the cover. The new issue with Louie Bellson is now on newsstands. It might be hard to find. Try on any drumshop
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 05, 2004, 10:06 AM
Thanks Billy.
Info....nay FACT straight from the horses mouth....so to speak.  ;D
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 05, 2004, 10:08 AM
I'll read the article tonight. But now we're lucky enough to have the genuine article right here with us, so he'll be able answer your question far better than I ever could!

A big DC welcome to Billy Ward!

 ;D
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 05, 2004, 10:22 AM
A big DC welcome to Billy Ward!

 ;D

"S-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-LUTE!!!!!"

Oh wait, sorry...that's Hee-Haw.  Never mind.  ;)
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Billy Ward on November 05, 2004, 11:35 AM
thanks guys.  James - that must've been ALOT of work changing all those snares!!!  :D
They DO make a big difference.  My DW Craviotto walnut 4 X15 has radio king snares on it - UNBELIEVABLY GREAT.  I'm also fond of any of the old Rogers' snares.  To be honest, I haven't had any time to check out the new "boutique" snares like puresound for instance.  Looking forward to trying them all some time.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Ian on November 05, 2004, 11:51 AM
I don't think James considers it work.

To quote someone else about James "snare drum" Walker (sorry, I can't remember who said this):
"So... you really like snare drums"

Welcome to the Cafe.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 05, 2004, 12:07 PM
HIJACK! (this is my thread ;D)

First of all: welcome, Mr. Ward! It is an honor to have you here discussing this with us.

I've enjoyed many of your articles at MD, but I'm having trouble understanding your tuning method.

I'm not sure if I have heard your work. I'm Puertorican and I don't listen too much to American music (at least not new). I would appreciate further explanation of your method and suggestions of recordings.

As I said in one of posters, maybe I have the tendency for tuning low my drums and never realized it (therefor having troubles for lowering them even more) ???

Any help will be appreciated :)
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 05, 2004, 12:35 PM
I don't think James considers it work.

To quote someone else about James "snare drum" Walker (sorry, I can't remember who said this):
"So... you really like snare drums"

That was deadtrooper - I had it as my "signature" for a couple of months.

BTW - Billy, the "snare wire comparison" project is something that has been going on-and-off since April.  I think I've collected all the wires I'm going to collect - the next step is to record some of these wires "in context" (with some backing tracks) on a number of different drums.  So many wires, so little time.   ;)

I've been thru a building phase (continuing, but waning), a snare wire phase...now I'm in a tuning phase - and your MD article is feeding my current time-consuming addiction.  ;)

(Hopefully, one of these days, I'll get back to more of a practicing phase, followed by a gigging phase...) ::)
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Dave Heim on November 05, 2004, 03:24 PM
I'm also fond of any of the old Rogers' snares.

I finally badgered, er... convinced, my kid brother into parting with his old Rogers Dynasonic.  It'll need some TLC to get it back up to speed, but I'm looking forward to playing it.  It always sounded great.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 05, 2004, 03:29 PM
Hey!  Well, I've finally joined up here at the Cafe!  Tried last night but couldn't figure out the registering thing.  Somehow today it has worked!  (yes, I'm an idiot!) :D
(...)

jokerny - Do you HAVE to trumpet EVERYWHERE that you don't like my sound?  :D  just kidding.
(...)

lol,  

anything to garner your attention.  :P  but hey, LOVE your bass drum tones.  8)  sub goooood.

btw, hopefully, JW will have his 13" snare wire comparisons up, too.  quite interesting.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 05, 2004, 03:36 PM
btw, hopefully, JW will have his 13" snare wire comparisons up, too.  quite interesting.

Not to further hijack this thread, but FWIW:   http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=9998;start=msg125772#msg125772]link to the relevant Cafe thread

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 06, 2004, 01:30 AM
On the subject of hijacking.....
I haven't read Modern Drummer in 20+ years, so I'm hoping there'll be some more debate here on Dannydrumperc's original point about Billy's tuning method.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 06, 2004, 03:15 AM
I don't typically use very loose snare tunings, unless I think a specific song calls for it. (...)

was picking thru the thread again, and this caught my eye...

interestingly enough, Russ Miller on his own tuning DVD mentions how he likes to "tune" his snare wire set, so that the white noise sustains and maintains the length of one quarter note in whatever song he's running down.  says it makes for a fully, more "realized" snare backbeat.

guess Mr. BW was onto something.  :P
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 06, 2004, 04:48 PM
On the subject of hijacking.....
I haven't read Modern Drummer in 20+ years, so I'm hoping there'll be some more debate here on Dannydrumperc's original point about Billy's tuning method.

You got it, boss...  ;)

I tracked down a copy of this issue of MD at a drum shop today, just to refresh my memory of Billy's points.  The core of what Billy is getting at, if I may be so bold, is to encourage drummers to explore lower snare drum tunings - specifically lower tensions all-around, including both heads and the snare wires.  He mentions that most drums can be made to sound good when tuned high, and that lower tunings can be more challenging - but that the resulting sound can often work better when recording, playing live, etc.  Lower overall pitch and greater sustain are two of the goals mentioned in the article.

In terms of our discussion here...I definitely agree that many drummers are cranking down their heads and wires far too much - based on what I hear when I check out the local drum shops, and what I've found when my students bring in their drums for a lesson on tuning.  Those lower tunings will definitely expose flaws in the drum, or in the tuning method.  I know that over the past six months or so, I've found my self (more and more) tweaking my drums' tunings down - not as far down as what Billy is prescribing, but I'm hearing the benefits of letting the drums "breathe" a little bit more.

Tangentially, I'm finding that as my own tuning skills get better, I'm getting less and less excessive snare buzz, both in terms of hitting the snare drum, and also regarding sympathetic vibrations from the toms - all while keeping the wires on the looser side of the dial.  It seems to be those clashing overtones that result from poor tuning, that cause a lot of these unwanted snare wire vibrations.  The snare buzz is still there for me, but it's nowhere near what it once was.

I mentioned earlier that I tried to follow Billy's suggestions using a deeper snare drum.  Billy indicated above that shallower snares seem to lend themselves to a greater variety of tunings, compared to deeper snares, and I'm finding that to be a very accurate statement.  I've been fiddling around with a 4x14 drum, and I'm getting some interesting results.  For a moment, it seemed like the planets aligned, and that I'd really nailed a lower tuning - but it slipped away...I'll have to dig back into it when I next have some free time to devote to this.

In terms of the snare drum being tuned below the highest tom...that's more of a side-effect, if I read the article correctly.  The goal wasn't to tune the snare below the tom, but if it ended up that way, so be it - just find a "pitch zone" (as mentioned earlier in this thread) to minimize those excessive sympathetic vibrations.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: nudrum on November 06, 2004, 10:08 PM
That's Thomas Lang on the cover Mr. A
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 07, 2004, 03:22 AM
In terms of the snare drum being tuned below the highest tom...that's more of a side-effect,
Yeah, thank heavens there are so many individual tastes in drumming. I can relate to lower snare drum tunings, but not higher tom tunings.
BW said:
'If I set up four toms - I go for as extreme a tuning range as is possible.'
I generally tune my largest tom as low as it will go (while still sustaining), I then try to achieve an acceptable interval with each higher tom, whilst endeavouring to keep all the pitches as low as possible.
I guess it all depends on the genre of music. I hardly think my sound would work in Jazz or Fusion.
If any one has heard 'Sea Change' by Beck, that's where my drum sound is at right now (Joey Waronker and James Gadson - drums). Another feature of the album is less than full on hitting. Some of the drums are played pianissimo, despite the loud sounding, distorted guitars.
This approach results in a wider tonal range in the drums IMO, but you do lose a lot of the energy.
Snarewise, my natural instinct is to tune to a high/medium pitch (never cranked though). Over the last couple of years I've made a conscious effort to lower my snare pitch. The only downside is the batter heads' tendency to detune, even over the course of a three minute song. This is less of an issue when using the quieter playing style of course.
As to snare depth, I've mentioned before that I once worked with a producer who fell in love with my 3.5" N&C Piccolo. He insisted I use it on every song, so I managed to wrangle a few different sounds out of it and I don't think you would ever notice I used a Picc exclusively on the record.
We haven't talked about bass drums much on the Cafe. I use the same philosophy.....as low as it will go, whilst retaining a musical tone.  ;)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 07, 2004, 05:22 AM
By the way, when is the great Walker/Speers/Dork snare drum comparison session scheduled?
You could make up a CD for those interested, like this guy:
http://www.mercenary.com/3daudio3dprecd.html

The recording conditions would have to be strictly controlled however.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 07, 2004, 03:31 PM
waaaaaaaay OT:

but Mercenary Audio is like crack for my studio...

Speck preamps be dangnabbit'ed!
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Billy Ward on November 07, 2004, 05:52 PM
Speck Pres - good value.  burr brown transformers in a package that is reasonablly priced - good stuff and a good deal for the dough.
(but I love my Dakings.  They still win over everything else I've tried. The  Manley Voxbox is the latest contestant)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 08, 2004, 06:03 AM
I'm here again.

Tried the lower tuning thing last weekend (again) and it didn't worked (again). Now I'm convinced about what we had been arguing about the low-tuning/drum depth. Me piccolo sounded very good when tuned low, gained more body. But the 6.5x14 sounded awful.

About the toms:
At last I finished with the new bearing edges and now they sound excellent. The lower I tune, them the better they sound. So now I agree with Mr. Ward about tom-toms tuning. :)

I may be joining the Snare Drum Lovers Club :-* after all. Ive been thinking about purchasing a 5x14 wood snare drum, or a Blacro; not sure yet.

Hope to see some progress in this topic and thanks for redirecting the thread back to where it started.
 ;)
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 08, 2004, 08:22 PM
Progress report:  I'm getting very good results tweaking my 4x14 Tempus carbon fibre snare down, bit by bit.  I'm getting the best results with a sort of parallel approach, bringing the batter head, reso head, and snare wire tension down (looser) just a little bit at a time, but each at the same time.

If I had to estimate how much lower the drum's overall pitch is, I'd say it's about a minor third lower - somewhere between a major 2nd and minor 3rd.  It's still above my highest (12") tom, so I'm not getting any excessive snare buzz or sympathetic vibrations - but part of that is probably the Tempus shell, which always yields a very clean snare sound, even at looser tensions.  I don't think I'll tune it down any more, tho - I'm starting to lose a little bit of stick rebound whenever I try going below the current batter head tension.

It's not necessarily "better" or "worse," just different - but it's providing a sound that I didn't have in my collection previously, so in that sense, it's an improvement (of sorts).

I've got students tomorrow - I'll bring the drum down to the school where I teach, so I can hear it from out front as they play.  Currently, tho, I'm very happy with the results.  Thanks for the suggestion, Billy!  :D
Title: Billy Ward's clinic
Post by: Bart Elliott on November 09, 2004, 06:36 AM
I attended Billy Ward's clinic last night, heard him play, heard his drums, and hung out with him for a few hours afterwards.

First of all, great guy ... great player.

In regards to the Snare tuning topic ... let me make a few comments based on what I heard.

Billy was playing a DW kit, and the 10-inch Tom, which was the smallest Tom, was tuned slightly higher than average ... in my opinion. If you are a Pop drummer, I think a vast majority of you tune your 10-inch Toms a little lower than what Billy does. To give you a better idea of the sound, it has more of a Fusion tuning ... something you'd expect to hear in that genre. Now, the entire kit didn't have a Fusion tuning, but that's more of the sound I perceived from his 10-inch Tom. All of this just confirms what Billy has already stated in his earlier post.

The Snare was lower in pitch and sounded great. He tunes so that the batter head is tighter than the snare head. The interval between the top/bottom is around a Major 2nd, maybe a Minor 3rd ... I didn't get a good listen.

The overall tuning is wide ... as Billy mentioned. Reminds me of how Larrie Londin used to tune his drums.

If I remember correctly, his 12-inch Tom was tuned lower than the Snare, which was 14-inch. Following the "diameter of the drum" rule for tuning, meaning that a drum with a smaller diameter is tuned higher, works somewhat, but the drum's shell depth must be accounted for ... which I believe Billy has mentioned.

All in all ... I think experimentation is always good. It opens the doors to creativity and may just help you find a sound that you never thought possible.

Please try to attend one of Billy Ward's clinics when you get the chance. Check out his playing ... and pick-up a copy of his new DVD. If you enjoyed Steve Smith's DVD ... I think you'll love Billy Ward's; it will be a nice companion to your library.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: rayvonr on November 09, 2004, 10:11 PM
I just saw Billy play 2 nights ago. I checked out his drums and he had the top head somewhat tight and the bottom head pretty loose. His snare still sounded bright but also fat. I'm going to go thru my snares and try that with at least one of them. If you tune the bottom head loose like that, even if your snares are loose, it will not sound sloppy. Billy's clinic was great. He's one of the most musical drummers I've heard in a while. He really thinks about the tonalities of his drums and cymbals and plays them accordingly.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Bob Levey on November 09, 2004, 10:50 PM
I remember reading an article by Art Blakey and someone asked him how he tuned his drums? his reply was "I don't I just beat the crap out of them". I asked Louie Hayes the same question, his comment was to what I hear". I asked my old man Stan Levey the same question he said "always to the sound never tension" and he was known for having a great sound.

I just got a drum he used on Mission Impossible, Mannix etc, etc and many jazz recordings. It  is a 14"x 4" 1920 6 lug brass Ludwig snare. It sounds great he told me he always used a calf head so I got a goatskin and it is just an incredible sounding snare drum. You guys can see it on Steve Maxwells drum page. By the way someone here gave me Steve's name and I thank you, can't remember who it was. He did an outstanding job on the restoration a true professional and caring knowledgeable individual.

My Dad will also be releasing a DVD soon titled "The Orgiinal Original" it will be out soon. it is about his life in music and the early Be Bop years..

Bart will review it soon and maybe sell it here on the site.


Sincerely

Bob Levey
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 09, 2004, 11:23 PM
I just got a drum he used on Mission Impossible, Mannix etc, etc and many jazz recordings. It  is a 14"x 4" 1920 6 lug brass Ludwig snare.

A quick Google search found the page, but to save any interested parties a few moments of searching:

 http://www.maxwelldrums.com/levey_snare.html]http://www.maxwelldrums.com/levey_snare.html

Boy, that's just gorgeous.  I love six-lug snare drums...BTW, I'll be very interested in checking out  your Dad's DVD when it's released.

Going back on the topic of Billy's article...I took my "unofficial BW tuning guinea pig snare drum" in to teach today.  Sounded great.  I don't know if it's the fact that there's such a difference in the tension on the reso' head specifically, but the benefits of this looser tuning are much more pronounced when you step back and listen from a few feet away, vs. what it sounds like as you play.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 10, 2004, 02:42 AM
FWIW, as I've mentioned before with regards to tom tunings, I can never get the lower reso tuning to work. Same goes for snare.  ::)
If my snare-side head is tuned too low I have problems with the drum sounding choked and my snares often sound too mushy and rattley.
I'd like to sit down with someone who uses this approach and try and figure out where I'm going wrong.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 10, 2004, 06:05 AM
FWIW, as I've mentioned before with regards to tom tunings, I can never get the lower reso tuning to work. Same goes for snare.  ::)

You won't with Evans heads either.  Not a slam, just an observation.  They really "flab out" and lose focus when you go for the lower tunings.  They sound great otherwise, but I never liked them for lower sounding tunas.  Chrisso, I don't think it's your method.  But we can sit down together when I'm in England next year and discuss it over a pint.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Bart Elliott on November 10, 2004, 07:18 AM
You won't with Evans heads either.  Not a slam, just an observation.  They really "flab out" and lose focus when you go for the lower tunings.  They sound great otherwise, but I never liked them for lower sounding tunas.  

Well ... Billy is using ... EVANS drumheads!
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 10, 2004, 07:29 AM
Yeah, I know, I read that.  Do they flab out or not?  I never heard of him till this thread.  Can't say anything about his sound.  Maybe he gets it to work.  All I know is I don't like Evan's heads at low tunings (that's an understatement).
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 10, 2004, 08:24 AM
I was going to be polite and not say anything  ;D , but then Bart chipped in.
Yeah, I use Evans heads and love them tuned low. I always have the resos medium pitched and tension my batters to taste (often very low).
It's just the bottom head lower than top head concept I can't get to work.
 :-[
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 10, 2004, 08:39 AM
Hell, I don't care.  It's impolite not to say something.  I just go with what I know.  Evans are probably the best heads on the planet for low tunas for all I know- you won't see/hear them on my drums and you won't see me in modern drummer magazine.   So that's that.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 10, 2004, 08:40 AM
Well, actually you can hear them on my drums.  I did one recording with clear G2's and I played well enough to keep the track but tossed the heads.  
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Bart Elliott on November 10, 2004, 08:43 AM
I think we are missing the fact that tuning, regardless of which drumheads you use, is going to be different on every drum ... especially between brands.

Perhaps EVANS don't work with loose tuning on ____ drumkits. I don't know ... just stating that Billy does use EVANS drumheads and plays DW drums, and it works for him.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 10, 2004, 08:55 AM
FWIW - I still haven't gotten that particular snare drum tuned with the snare head lower in pitch than the batter head - just lower than it used to be.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: rayvonr on November 10, 2004, 09:26 AM
Billy does use Evans heads....but I think Bart will agree...none of his tom heads was tuned low....they had a relatively high pitch. I don't know how the bottom heads were tuned, but I suspect they were lower than the top. I've talked to friends in Nashville here who do a lot of sessions and they
generally seem to tune the bottom heads even or lower than the top. I've always tuned the bottom higher for more projection, but the other way may give it more punch! Bart I'll see you at pasic this afternoon! Thanks
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 10, 2004, 10:01 AM
I think we are missing the fact that tuning, regardless of which drumheads you use, is going to be different on every drum ... especially between brands.
Also between different drummers and their playing styles.
I've sat in on one particular guys' kit at a soundcheck and thought man these drums are tubs of sludge, but when he plays them they sound GREAT.  ::)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 11, 2004, 05:54 AM
Also between different drummers and their playing styles.
I've sat in on one particular guys' kit at a soundcheck and thought man these drums are tubs of sludge, but when he plays them they sound GREAT.  ::)
... and the acoustics of the room, and where in that room are the drums placed (corners, walls, etc...).

Back to our topic:

I tried last night the snares thing again and ended tightening the bottom head even more than before because of excessive buzz. The apparent reasons for the buzzing were:
room acoustics
sympathetic vibrations from the other drums
42-strands snares

Something interesting was that the 3x13 wood piccolo (20-strands) buzzed a lot less (almost nothing) than the 6.5x14 steel. Not big difference between heads or tuning.

I re-tuned the toms a little bit higher (because of the snares buzzing problem). Left them still low and punchy, but now they have a more defined tone. Tried to set the relative pitch between the batter and resonant to a 1.5 tones interval. The toms are about a third between each other, forming a mayor triad. Have Zero-rings on them for focusing the tone.

Ill test them this weekend to let you know.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Bart Elliott on November 11, 2004, 05:59 AM
I tried last night the snares thing again and ended tightening the bottom head even more than before because of excessive buzz. The apparent reasons for the buzzing were:
room acoustics
sympathetic vibrations from the other drums
42-strands snares

Something interesting was that the 3x13 wood piccolo (20-strands) buzzed a lot less (almost nothing) than the 6.5x14 steel. Not big difference between heads or tuning.

If you are not using strap tape with your 42-strand snare wires, that may be the reason you are getting excessive buzz. Using standard snare string doesn't allow the 42-strand wires to lay on the snare head evenly.

Try using the strap tape or similar with your 42-strand if you haven't done so already.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 11, 2004, 07:03 AM
Hi Bart! :)

Thanks for the suggestion. Im using the plastic strap that came with it. Im thinking about buying some gross ribbon as James have suggested in some threads.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: jokerjkny on November 11, 2004, 08:59 AM
If you are not using strap tape with your 42-strand snare wires, that may be the reason you are getting excessive buzz. Using standard snare string doesn't allow the 42-strand wires to lay on the snare head evenly.

Try using the strap tape or similar with your 42-strand if you haven't done so already.

really?

interesting.  anyone else find this true?
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Stewart Manley on November 11, 2004, 09:04 AM
interesting.  anyone else find this true?

Dunno yet. I've just yesterday given into the peer pressure and ordered a 42-strander, and will press Mrs Moose for some grosgrain from her capacious sewing box when it arrives.

[sigh]

Let's face it, I'm just as credulous as hell...
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 11, 2004, 09:11 AM
I've never noticed any sonic difference between straps and cord. I've use aircraft cable for snare cord a lot, but have straps on most of my drums now.

That said, I've never done any experiments or A/B testing - I've just never encountered a buzzing problem that I couldn't work around through tuning or snare tension adjustments.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 11, 2004, 09:55 AM
I guess I'm in the "I don't know" boat about straps vs. cord thing for wires, cause by the time I've gotten my new wires and cord adjusted *whether it's cords, strapping, fishing line or shoelaces even*, I'm ready to play, buzzing or not.  I am indeed going to try the grosgrain when I find it and I am trying out my 30's again for the "rock" snare... I also have kept the 42's (I'm pretty sure) so you never know.  Gotta keep it fresh.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 11, 2004, 10:01 AM
OK, Jim's responding to a snare wire question...sit back, put your feet up, smoke 'em if you got 'em - this could take a while...  ::)

If you are not using strap tape with your 42-strand snare wires, that may be the reason you are getting excessive buzz. Using standard snare string doesn't allow the 42-strand wires to lay on the snare head evenly.

really?

interesting.  anyone else find this true?

Consistently, and not just with 42s.

However, I'd make a slight change to what Bart wrote:

"...to lay as snugly against the snare side head."  (I know - "picky, picky, picky.")

I've noticed consistently that the snare response is cleaner ("drier") when using ribbon or straps instead of cord.  Not necessarily better or worse, just different.  I don't know if it's a matter of ribbon being thinner than the snare cords, or that it provides a slight bit of muffling by covering a slightly greater amount of the reso head's surface, or both, but I've found there to be a difference.  Which is better?  It depends upon the drum, the wires, the sound you want, the tuning you're using, the heads you're using.  I tried an Evans 200 on one drum, and the snare response and sympathetic vibrations were noticeably greater than when I put a 300 back on it.

Even with 42s tho, there can be exceptions.  I've got 42s on my Yamaha 5.5x14 COS, but I've also got an HD Dry head on that drum to cut out the off-the-map ringing that the Yammy steel shell offers.  I put the 42s on with snare cords long before I ever heard of grosgrain ribbon, and they sound fine - no need to change, IMHO.

I don't think it's my imagination, or simply my OCD nature when it comes to snare drums.  Witness the number of snare wire manufacturers (Grover and Canopus come to mind) who include both mylar straps and snare cord when they package their snare wires for sale.  Also, witness the threads here in the past where Acrolite owners have stated the need to replace the older throwoff with a new, strap-friendly P85, in order to use 42s on an Acro.

It's not always better or worse, but it's one of many tools you can use in fine-tuning your drum's sound and response.  If you're getting excessive buzz and fuzziness from your 42s, but you want to keep that full snare sound, switching over to grosgrain may help to focus your snare wire response.  Similarly, if you've got straps, and your snare sound is just a little dry for your tastes (and if adjusting the tension doesn't solve the problem for you), try using cord instead.

Now, even I'm not a-r enough to notice any difference between grosgrain ribbon or mylar straps.  Mylar always slips whenever I use it with my wires, which is why I keep referring to grosgrain instead.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: dannydrumperc on November 11, 2004, 10:45 AM
Other thing that I'll check today is the alignment of the snare wires as soon as I get home. Checked that yesterday and seemed alright, but that may be the cause of the problem. The straps should lay perpendicular to the bottom rim no matter if the drum is tilted. The buzzing may be because the snares arent parallel to the bottom head.

Oh, no! I hijacked my own thread! :-[
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: JeepnDrummer on November 11, 2004, 11:24 AM
I used cord with the 42-strand wires on my Acrolite and it sound mushy.  Replaced the strainer w/ a P85 and the cord with strap and problem solved....for me.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: DoubleC on November 11, 2004, 12:48 PM
I used cord with the 42-strand wires on my Acrolite and it sound mushy.  Replaced the strainer w/ a P85 and the cord with strap and problem solved....for me.
JeepnDrummer:
I have a P85 on my keystone Acro but the butt plate only takes cord.  Did you replace the butt plate too or did you use strap on one end and cord on the other end?

dc
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: felix on November 11, 2004, 01:23 PM
yes you have to replace the butt plate.  I think it's called a P-30 if IIRC.  Bolts right on.
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 11, 2004, 01:59 PM
What am I missing regarding the butt plate?  

I've seen the old, old, OLD style butt plates, with about a dozen holes on it to thread gut snares through - there was one on my old Universal brass snare drum.  However, I didn't know they used those on Acrolites.  All the Acrolites I've seen or owned, had butt plates that would accept straps or grosgrain without skipping a beat.  Same design as the current model.

BTW, I think that current Ludwig butt plate is number P32...
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 11, 2004, 02:01 PM
What am I missing regarding the butt plate?  

I've seen the old, old, OLD style butt plates, with about a dozen holes on it to thread gut snares through - there was one on my old Universal brass snare drum.  However, I didn't know they used those on Acrolites.  All the Acrolites I've seen or owned, had butt plates that would accept straps or grosgrain without skipping a beat.  Same design as the current model.

BTW, I think that current Ludwig butt plate is number P32...

I was thinking the same thing. I replaced the strainer on my 66 Acro, but not the butt - it works fine with straps.

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: JeepnDrummer on November 11, 2004, 06:31 PM
Yes, as James and Mr. Acrolite stated, the strap works fine with the original butt plate.
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: DoubleC on November 11, 2004, 07:13 PM
This isn't a good picture but this is the butt plate on my Acro.  It has the 2 holes for the cords.  

It's hard to tell from the picture but maybe there's a rectangle type of piece (goes over the Ludwig logo) that clamps down to the butt plate that holds the strap in place?  If so, I'm missing this piece.

 http://www.music123.com/search/?src=snare+butt&search_combo=es]http://www.music123.com/search/?src=snare+butt&search_combo=es

(http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/bc/4c588d6/bc/Drum+Cafe+Stuff/P32+Snare+Butt.jpg?BCs5BlBBnaVsGZGg)

dc
Title: Re:Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: James Walker on November 11, 2004, 08:19 PM
Yep, you're missing a part.  I suspected as much.

The two holes are for screws.  The two screws attach to a plate (not visible in this photo), and you hold the strap in place between the (now missing) plate and the main part of the butt plate.

(http://www.malletjazz.com/cafefiles/p32a.jpg)

Maybe your local drum shop will have the missing part sitting in a parts drawer.  If not, just go ahead and order another P32 - it costs about five bucks, IIRC.  (Available from  http://www.drummaker.com/shop]Drum Supply House ...I probably should give them the plug, since I "borrowed" the image - but not the bandwidth - from their site...)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Stewart Manley on November 13, 2004, 06:24 AM
Dunno yet. I've just yesterday given into the peer pressure and ordered a 42-strander...

Whoa! The snare now sounds so fat I may need to buy it new pants!

"Then I heard that sound [bwarm bwarm bwarm bwarm] now I'm a believer,
Not a trace [bwarm bwarm bwarm bwarm] of doubt in my mind,
I'm in love (oooooooo) with a 42-strander, now I just need some grosgrain too."

Ok, there may be a reason why I'm a CTO not a songwriter.

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 13, 2004, 06:30 AM
Whoa! The snare now sounds so fat I may need to buy it new pants!

"Then I heard that sound [bwarm bwarm bwarm bwarm] now I'm a believer,
Not a trace [bwarm bwarm bwarm bwarm] of doubt in my mind,
I'm in love (oooooooo) with a 42-strander, now I just need some grosgrain too."

Ok, there may be a reason why I'm a CTO not a songwriter.



You have been assimilated.

(http://www.keithcronin.com/drumstuff/assimilated_42.jpg)


Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 13, 2004, 07:35 AM
I see I stand alone.


Help, I need somebody, help, not just anybody,
help, you know I need someone, help.

When I was younger, so much younger than today,
I never needed 42's help in any way.
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured,
now I find I've changed my snare and ordered up some more.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down,
and I do appreciate my old snares' sound.
Help me, find some 20's, flat or wound,
won't you please, please, help me.

Help, I need somebody, help, not just anybody,
help, you know I need someone, help.

And now my chops have slid in oh so many ways,
my independence seems to vanish in the haze.
But every now and then I feel so in the groove,
I know that I need my old snares like I've never done before.

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down,
and I do appreciate you being round.
Help me, find some grovers or some puresounds,
won't you please, please, help me.

Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Mister Acrolite on November 13, 2004, 08:04 AM
And now my chops have slid in oh so many ways,
my independence seems to vanish in the haze.

ROFLMAO!!!

(http://www.keithcronin.com/yeah_but_is_it_ART/notworthy.gif)  (http://www.keithcronin.com/yeah_but_is_it_ART/notworthy.gif)  (http://www.keithcronin.com/yeah_but_is_it_ART/notworthy.gif)
Title: Billy Ward's article on MD last issue
Post by: Chris Whitten on November 13, 2004, 09:05 AM
Funny thing was I didn't change a word in line two:  
'my independence seems to vanish in the haze.'

;D