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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 10:55 AM

Title: Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 10:55 AM
Let me ask you guys this.  Why is it hip to hate DW?
It's a quality built and great sounding drum.

I'm not saying that DW is what everyone should play, or that DW is better than any other drum.  I just noticed that I rarely hear discussions about why some mass produced drum company isn't any good, but once someone brings up DW, it's a dogpile.

How many guitar players do you guys know speak badly about PRS Guitars?  Isn't PRS an expensive custom guitar company?

All the guitar players I know who can really play either want, or have a PRS next to their strat.

Title: Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 24, 2005, 11:14 AM
The guy who said the tom mounts are "shabby" didn't say why. He failed to convey his experience with these (if any).

I've had great experiences with the DW products I've used. My pedal has held up well and I haven't had the need to replace any parts on it since I got it over 2 years ago. The DW kit I set up for a guy I tech for is easy to tune and easy to set up. The stands are heavy as heck, but that's my only complaint.

I did have some problems (for a few months) where customer service wasn't very responsive (when I would email them for a part and not receive a response for a week). That seemed to correct itself quickly.

At a club, I heard a discussion with the stage manager about the house kit being a DW. This guy says, "DW sucks! Why are you using them?" The stage manager says, "Because it's the kit requested on every rider that passes my desk."

My beef with the guy who says "DW sucks" is that he doesn't say WHY they suck. It's SO easy for people to just blab at the mouth and not back anything up.

And who knows, the reason he thinks they suck might be the reason someone else thinks they're great.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 11:19 AM
I hear you drumwild.  That's exactly the kind of thing I've experienced.  People, both in the real world and here in the virtual world, will tell anyone who'll listen that DW sucks or whatever and not explain why they think that.  That's why I say it's hip to hate DW.

But I just don' t hear people as much saying the same kinds of things about other companies.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Stewart Manley on June 24, 2005, 11:22 AM
This is another one of those topics that comes up from time to time.

 http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=8161]http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=8161
Title: Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 24, 2005, 11:29 AM
In that old thread, the guy says:

I would like to know how others feel about DW drums in regards to their price and workmanship. I have a 5x13 snare I got a few years ago that never really did it for me, and I seemed to have poor workmanship. Anyone else feel the same way?
-Adam

ps- I got the new Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute Nouveau kit, it rocks! So maybe I am a little biased!


In this comment, he does not say WHY there is poor workmanship. He just says it SEEMED to. Conversely, he says the Yamaha rocks, but does not say why.

Yes, he is biased.


While it might be good to continue posting in that old thread, I do have mixed feelings about continuing a conversation more than a year after-the-fact. New threads about really old topics are OK by me, but I guess that would be up to the higher powers who run this fantastic ship.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: dstuart on June 24, 2005, 11:49 AM
Now if every post were like this then we wouldn't have a problem.

DW's ROCK!!!  8)

Analysis of why DW's ROCK:

1) Nice shells and my wrap is built like a tank.
2) Hardware is durable and I've never had a problem with it.
3) I called DW to ask them a question and got great customer service
    even though I bought my kit second hand.
4) Who doesn't love Oxnard, CA...    :-\
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: felix on June 24, 2005, 12:06 PM
I had two problems with my dw's.  I had problems with my snare lever wearing out (bushing in the inside of the throw mechanism) and stripping out a bass drum spur.  These could have been a combination of me and the hardware's integrity, who knows.  After 5 years of gigging, something has got to go.

I also noticed that the glue rings started seperating and that the lugs were "noisy" sometimes.  John Good said that never happens, so I felt a bit slighted, but honestly, my complaints weren't quantifiable- so I let it go.

All in all it was a great sounding kit that looked even better.  I'd buy another, but have my eye on a sonor right now, so I'm going to have to pass.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: felix on June 24, 2005, 12:09 PM
Funny we have had dw vs. sonor a bunch of times over at the sonor board.  Lots of opinions.

Anyways, I'm on my third sonor kit and only had one dw- so that says something.  I've had two ludwig, two yammy and two tama.  Sonor is the only contender for a "3 peat".
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Showguy on June 24, 2005, 12:09 PM
It seems to me that DW is like any product that started out small and got big - it's cooler when it's esoteric and harder to find. 15 or 20 years ago you couldn't just walk into a music store or drum shop in a medium-to-large sized city and see and play a DW kit like you can now. They weren't stacked up along the walls because they really were custom made. They were expensive then because you were paying for American labor. Today DW is no longer small and they're not using American labor exclusively. While they are based in the US, I don't see them as being that much different from the Japanese companies.
I don't hate DW. I use their pedals and some of their hardware, and I've got a DW snare drum that I bought used that's great. I wouldn't buy a new kit, but it's mostly because of some of their business practices, as well as substantiated reports of serious problems with some of their shells.  It seems to me that a lot of what you're paying for is the name, and for that amount of money I can get a better sounding kit from a true custom builder. While a custom set won't have the resale value of a DW, at least I'll know who the money is going to.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: rawdrums22 on June 24, 2005, 12:27 PM
I think there hardware is shabby because I played one a few kits and plain and simple it just shook.  Thats why I started playing Yamaha
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 24, 2005, 12:32 PM
DW don't live up to their own hype for me.   They are fine drums, and have a lovely selection of finishes.   No argument there.   But all in all I find them pedestrian.   Obviously a matter of taste.    But to me DW is like a Honda Civic with a Lexus price tag.    I can spend half as much and get the same thing from another manufacturer.  

As a guitarist I feel the same way about PRS actually.   I shopped for a guitar with some very specific ideas about what I wanted and compared a $2400 PRS to a $1200 Hamer and a $600 Dean and bought the Dean.

Im willing to spend what it takes to get what I want.   But I'm not going to spend twice as much on something just because of the name.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 24, 2005, 12:45 PM
I think there hardware is shabby because I played one a few kits and plain and simple it just shook.  Thats why I started playing Yamaha

Sorry, dude, but that's kinda weak.

I could say the same thing about a Pearl kit I've played, without telling you that it's a backline kit in a rehearsal hall that has been abused for over ten years by people who don't care about the kit because they paid $3/hour to use it.

Maybe the DW you played was at a busy music store where kids beat up on it all the time, and the staff doesn't have time to maintain the kit. But you didn't say, so I shouldn't speculate.

Felix made points about his DW experience, and I can definitely respect those comments.

I'm having a similar problem with my Pearl Chad Smith Signature Series Snare (with regard to the snare throw). I gotta lay the thing on its side just to force it shut! I should mention that I lived relatively close to the beach and the salt air does have an impact on gear if it's not lubed properly. I did spray some lithium grease on it, but it was probably too little, too late.

This does not tell me that Pearl sucks. It tells me that I'd better pay closer attention to my gear next time, due to my environmental situation.

I've owned a Pearl Export and a Yamaha Stage Custom. I would definitely own those kits again. I currently have a Premier Artist Birch and won't part with it. They all sounded great and held up to my punishment.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 24, 2005, 12:46 PM
But to me DW is like a Honda Civic with a Lexus price tag.

The Lexus is made in the Toyota factory :)
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 12:57 PM
I'm not saying that DW is the end-all be-all of drums.  And I'm not saying that they are better drums than any other drums.  They are man made, and nothing man made is perfect, but the kit I have has been the best kit I've ever owned or played.  My hardware is strong and quality of sound has always been consistent for me.

I'm just pointing out that I've noticed that more often than not, when DW comes up, people have negative things to say and don't have anything to back up their own claims.  It seems that most comments are driven by the fact that it's hip to hate DW.

I respect an honest, experience based opinion good or bad for any drum.  If you like, or dislike a drum, guitar, or any product, cool, but have arguments that support your views, especially if you're going to participate in a discussion or online forum.  :)
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 24, 2005, 01:02 PM
I respect an honest, experience based opinion good or bad for any drum.  If you like, or dislike a drum, guitar, or any product, cool, but have arguments that support your views, especially if you're going to participate in a discussion or online forum.  :)

And be prepared to accept when people disagree with your tastes.    ;)
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Stewart Manley on June 24, 2005, 01:24 PM
While it might be good to continue posting in that old thread, I do have mixed feelings about continuing a conversation more than a year after-the-fact.

That wasn't my purpose for quoting the previous thread. I just wanted people to know what was said last time. Apologies if that was a distraction of some sort.

Companies "at the top" (no matter what the field, no matter how "at the top" is measured, no matter whether "at the top" is reality or perception) are always a target for this kind of stuff. It's nothing new, and it goes with the territory.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 02:09 PM
And be prepared to accept when people disagree with your tastes.    ;)

By all means, disagree with me.  Disagreement promotes healthy discussion.   :)

Like I said, I'm not trying to say DW's are the best or worst drums out there, I'm just trying to illustrate the trend I percieve.  Drummers should have opinions about drums that's what we live for, but don't hate a certain brand just because everyone else does, have your own opinion.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on June 24, 2005, 02:14 PM
I think there hardware is shabby because I played one a few kits and plain and simple it just shook.  Thats why I started playing Yamaha

Yeah, I once went to the produce store for oranges.  When I got there and looked at them they weren't ripe - you couldn't eat them.  In fact, I had the same experience at a couple of other stores.  So, I decided oranges suck.  And now I only buy apples.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 24, 2005, 02:18 PM
Companies "at the top" (no matter what the field, no matter how "at the top" is measured, no matter whether "at the top" is reality or perception) are always a target for this kind of stuff. It's nothing new, and it goes with the territory.

That's very true moosetication.  I agree with that.  

Being a tight community, I would think that drummers would be exempt from the mob mentality though.  ;D
Title: Hating DW
Post by: JeepnDrummer on June 24, 2005, 03:06 PM
DW drums are very nice and offer many finishes.  All of the DW kits I've played had a very fat sound to them, which I'd say is somewhat limiting, at least for my tastes.  I agree that they are over priced when compared to many other top lines by other companies.  That's my biggest complaint.

I think the issue is when someone says that DW drums are the best without qualifying their statement.  Some drummers who like other brands then take on the other extreme by bashing DW, again without qualifying their statement.  Frankly, this can be said about any drum brand, but it doesn't really mean squat.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 24, 2005, 03:44 PM
In defense of Rawdrums "it shook" comment, how many of us have had a negative experience with something and opted to write it off lest we have a repeat occurance?    How about a few negative experiences?  

It only takes one negative experience to turn someone off a product usually.   I don't like olives.   Why should I force myself to eat them?   Have they changed in the last 5 years?  Maybe I'll try one if I'm out and someone has some, or try some kind I haven't tried before.    But I'm sure as hell not going to go out of my way to bother with olives ever.  

Its the same with gear.    Theres mob mentality against a product and mob mentality for a product.   Neither is relevant.  Only personal experience is in the end.  

And in the end, if someone found something they feel better about using, despite all the glowing reviews about the product they had a bad time with, then good for them, why should they look back?
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: swede on June 24, 2005, 11:33 PM
Well, I considered dw for a while. I thout that the dw are US made and the Pacifics were foreign made? Anyway, I found that in my opinion, I found a better value for my $$. And of course, now that I have my new kit with "mini-classic lugs" I have to confess that I just made a derogatory reference in the gear threads about "new fangled looking round lugs". (I feel so dirty) Maybe some of the bashing stems form SGS (sour grapes syndrome)(someone that can't cough up the $$$ for the dw may subconsciously decide they're bad drums because they can't get them) I think I better stick to only apples too!
Title: Hating DW
Post by: jokerjkny on June 25, 2005, 01:21 AM
(...)

How many guitar players do you guys know speak badly about PRS Guitars?  Isn't PRS an expensive custom guitar company?

All the guitar players I know who can really play either want, or have a PRS next to their strat.



funny, but the PRS allegory is quite accurate.

i know plenty of gents who speak badly about PRSi.  and many of them are Hamer owners.  ;)  and lets put it this way.  the crap that's coming out of Maryland cant even compare to my OG '86 Cu24.  all in all, both are small companies with amazing marketing aspirations that helped hype them over the top.

as for DW, their prices for a keller shelled kit are pretty ridiculous.  Pork Pie, GMS, even Noble and Cooley dont charge nearly as much.  the Dubs are good drums, sure, and heck, i'm a huge fan of their natural wood finishes like the Tamo Ash.  but their hype / overexposure with everyone and their mom's dog using one, has literally pushed me to other more boutique'y brands.

but i do like DW's R&D when it comes to hardware.  a few good idears, tho dare i say, done so in a Microsoft like "if you cant beat 'em, buy 'em out" mentality.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 25, 2005, 09:49 AM
as for DW, their prices for a keller shelled kit are pretty ridiculous.  

DW arent Keller anymore, they're making their own shells.  Just an FYI.  
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: jokerjkny on June 25, 2005, 10:44 AM
really?

yea, that's what i heard, then from another i heard they're doing the keller thing again to keep up with orders.... oi...
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 25, 2005, 04:21 PM
really?

yea, that's what i heard, then from another i heard they're doing the keller thing again to keep up with orders.... oi...

Or maybe I'm wrong and they went back to 'em to keep up with orders  ;D    I hadn't heard, doesn't mean it aint true.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: bilkay on June 26, 2005, 07:41 AM
Did anybody say they cost WAY too much money?
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: rca on June 26, 2005, 05:22 PM
I don't think high-end drums are any worse than they used to be. I think that the drum industry in general is just doing a lot better job at producing great drums at all the price points, so our expectations are really high. We are really lucky to have so many good choices out there. Second thing that may have an impact is that a lot of live music, especially rock, is played at insane SPLs. Signal processing is used a lot too. So it is really difficult to tell much difference between well-tuned kits. If we were all playing acoustic jazz, maybe that would make us rethink our priorities.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Jay Northrop on June 26, 2005, 10:47 PM
Personally I don't " hate " any drum company. I think all have their good and bad points but that kinda goes for everything in life. Jst like why some people may like Pringles better than Lays. But as long as you have a reason why you like or don't like something then your points and claims can be justified. For someone to say I love Yamaha and Hate Tama....well thats a crappy statement and one with no reason or logic. Me I like DW I think they make great drums and hardware.I have three Pacific boom stands and I love them to death. I think they show good workman ship,they don't move,and they get the job done and I never have to worry about them. At the end of the day its all personal prefrence and thats cool but if your going to say you like and or dislike something else it should be common knowledge to make points as to why you like / dislike something.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: drummer1202 on June 27, 2005, 01:23 AM
I'm a noob, esp. when it comes to purchasing drums, so I don't have the expertice to judge a drum for the masses. Nevertheless I decided not to go with DW for several reasons:

1. The outrageous price - yes outrageous - other companies can produce american made custom products for $500-$2000 less per kit, depending on the size of the kit.

2.Those "new fangled round lugs" - I really just don't like the way they look.  Yeah I know the sound doesn't come from there, but who wants to play on a kit that they feel is funny-looking?  Something about them seems cheap trying to look fancy.

3. The sound on the kits that I sampled wasn't anything mind-blowing. Granted neither were the other kits I sampled, but they were all played in stores without benefit of my preference of tuning and alot of time to settle and really groove.

Alll this being said , I can't say that I hate DW.  They are just not the company for me right now-- you never know maybe in the future I'll start to like those funny looking lugs!

Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mister Acrolite on June 27, 2005, 06:06 AM
I can't buy into it being "hip" to hate a product (other than maybe tobacco).

DWs are great looking drums. For my tastes, they are overpriced, and not consistent enough that I'd want to invest in a set. A good DW kit sounds GREAT. A not-so-good DW kit sounds just okay. For all that money, I want more than okay. So I wouldn't buy a DW kit unless I'd played it first.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on June 27, 2005, 06:16 AM

2.Those "new fangled round lugs" - I really just don't like the way they look.  Yeah I know the sound doesn't come from there, but who wants to play on a kit that they feel is funny-looking?  Something about them seems cheap trying to look fancy.


They're actually not new.  They've been around for years.  Before DW they were used by Camco.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Filacteria on June 27, 2005, 11:40 AM
I don't know about DW per-se, but my experience with Pacific has been less than gratifying
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: TheDuke86 on June 27, 2005, 06:33 PM
I think DW makes great drums. However, I'll take a vintage Gretsch kit with a Radio King snare anyday. :)
As Mr. Acrolite so eloquently stated- the only problem with DW in my mind is the consistency between kits. I've played decent DW kits, and wonderful DW kits. However, when I pay 4000 dollars for a kit, it @$%# well should be better than "decent".
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: jokerjkny on June 28, 2005, 01:41 AM
heh,

for that kind of money, rather than a D-Dubya, i'd much rather get a USA Custom Gretsch kit.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 11:56 AM
That's an interesting point jokerjkny.  You would be willing to shell out $4k, but not for a DW.  

I'm interested in hearing your opinion as to why a Gretsch is worth the cash, but a DW isn't.  Does a Gretsch sound any better than a DW?
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 12:01 PM
I mean clearly DW isn't the only drum company selling kits for more than $4000.  

When someone mentions DW it seems all kinds of negative things get said about them that have little to do with how the drums sound and look.  But when the Gretsch name comes up, you don't hear everyone yelling and gnashing their teeth at how "way overpriced" Gretsch drums are.

That's why I think some drummers find it hip to hate DW.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 28, 2005, 12:07 PM
That's an interesting point jokerjkny.  You would be willing to shell out $4k, but not for a DW.  

I'm interested in hearing your opinion as to why a Gretsch is worth the cash, but a DW isn't.  Does a Gretsch sound any better than a DW?

As someone who feels the same way, yes.  I do feel Gretsch sound better than DW.   Subjective?  Sure.   But we're talking about devices that make sound for art.   The better part of any decision will be based on subjective opinion.  
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 12:13 PM
You're absolutely correct 563, it is subjective, there is no standard for what I think sounds better as opposed to what you think sounds better.

But that still doesn't make an argument for someone saying that $4000 is way too much for a drum kit.  Or that one or another kit is overpriced.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 28, 2005, 12:34 PM
You're absolutely correct 563, it is subjective, there is no standard for what I think sounds better as opposed to what you think sounds better.

But that still doesn't make an argument for someone saying that $4000 is way too much for a drum kit.  Or that one or another kit is overpriced.

$4000 can easily be too much for a DW if the person saying so doesn't think what they have to offer is worth the asking price.   If what's being charged is more than someone thinks the kit is worth to them based on their subjective opinion, then it is overpriced.  

The real value of a kit isn't just determined by its build quality.  Its determined by the interest of the potential buyer.  
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 03:01 PM
So, if you were the biggest "brand X" fan in the world, maybe $4000 is too low for you to pay for the kit?  Is that what you mean?
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 28, 2005, 03:26 PM
So, if you were the biggest "brand X" fan in the world, maybe $4000 is too low for you to pay for the kit?  Is that what you mean?

To some extent yes.  

But again, its not just one thing that makes up the "value" of an item.  
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 03:31 PM
wow.  I appreciate your perspective.

So, if price is out the window and you really "value" one kit over another, there should be no such thing as an overpriced drum, if fans of a particular drum are spending thousands of dollars on it, it must be that valuable to them.  
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Schlipper on June 28, 2005, 05:06 PM
wow.  I appreciate your perspective.

So, if price is out the window and you really "value" one kit over another, there should be no such thing as an overpriced drum, if fans of a particular drum are spending thousands of dollars on it, it must be that valuable to them.  

Pretty much.  

That said, whenever someone says a drum is "overpriced" you can safely assume they mean, "to them".    So there can be "overpriced" drums, but its a case by case, person by person basis.  

There's just to much subjective judgement involved in the decision making process for it to be black and white.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on June 28, 2005, 05:22 PM
I hear you there.  That's the way of the world, isn't it?
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 28, 2005, 05:46 PM
I have three Pacific boom stands and I love them to death.

I have three Pacific boom stands also!

 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/drumwild/drums/IMG_0371.jpg](https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv491%2Fdrumwild%2Fdrums%2Fth_IMG_0371.jpg&hash=ee8c9102de0c2e082ffba6ad5f3ea2ec)

When I worked at GC, I found out that it's not only the cheapest (price-wise) stand in the store, but it makes the store the highest profit.

They hold up well for me and "stand" the test of time (got them three years ago).

The price issue is definitely relative. My pedal is evidence of that.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: that1drummer on June 28, 2005, 06:16 PM
Cause my homies were rollin out in the backstreet when all of sudden some guy stepped on there new kicks they got a five finger discount on at foot locker. The guy was sportin a red DW Shirt. That Is Why It Is Hip To Hate DW
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on June 28, 2005, 06:20 PM
Cause my homies were rollin out in the backstreet when all of sudden some guy stepped on there new kicks they got a five finger discount on at foot locker. The guy was sportin a red DW Shirt. That Is Why It Is Hip To Hate DW

The mystery is finally solved.

Word.
Title: Hating DW
Post by: drumwild on June 28, 2005, 06:24 PM
UUUHHH????

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gordon.u-net.com%2Fpages%2Ftimal2.jpg&hash=d29811fb9875b2ba6c3a6ba957c16563)
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: cragar on June 29, 2005, 02:28 PM
Maybe in 5 years, we'll be raggin' about those over-priced and tragically hip OCD's while waxing romantic about the ole' "affordable" vintage DWs?   Ya think?

My point? When "Botique" becomes mainstream, there's always another custom made, low volume company waiting in the wings... and someone willing to pony up a thousand more for the exclusivity.

And with guitar amps?
Got a friend who used a JCM 2000 Marshall stack for years. nah...too yesterday, too common...So he buys a Mesa Boogie Stack...@$%# if another act in town buys the same Mesa rig a year later. Oh man, what next?  a VHT !!!!!  
"Dude... VHT...hand made, hand wired, built to order...and $3000. No one around has ONE!!!!!" ( Personally. I liked his Marshall sound best).
Title: Hating DW
Post by: felix on June 29, 2005, 03:54 PM
VHT's are tremendous amps
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: optomagis on July 11, 2005, 02:48 AM
In Modern Drummer lately I've noticed how many people do use DW drums, whether its just hardware, or drums or both. More people use DW than say Premier or Brady. I'm not trying to say this suggests that DW are good or bad, just that there are a lot of pros out there who like DW - just a thought
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Joe on July 11, 2005, 08:24 AM
In Modern Drummer lately I've noticed how many people do use DW drums, whether its just hardware, or drums or both. More people use DW than say Premier or Brady. I'm not trying to say this suggests that DW are good or bad, just that there are a lot of pros out there who like DW - just a thought

Or that there are a lot of pros endorsing DW with much reimbursment.  Whichever. :)
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: James Walker on July 11, 2005, 08:38 AM
More people use DW than say Premier or Brady. I'm not trying to say this suggests that DW are good or bad, just that there are a lot of pros out there who like DW - just a thought
Or that there are a lot of pros endorsing DW with much reimbursment.  Whichever. :)

Or, that DW does a better job at (or puts a greater emphasis on) their advertising budget.  Or maybe they do have more drummers playing their drums (btw, what's the "smiley" for a shrug?) - Brady's a small company, and Premier's drums are (IMHO) underrated, and underexposed in the US.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: warmodder on July 11, 2005, 09:40 AM
DW does do alot of advertising. Even alot of people who are brand new to drums believe dw is the 'best'. There are plenty of drummers who will buy dw simply because so and so plays or because the price to them implies quality. (More expensive = better) It's the same reason alot of kids play ocdp. (Travis barker omg!!!!!112)

Some people can't or don't want to compare different kits or worry about brands. Those people can buy a dw because of the reputation they've earned through advertising and endorsements and rest assured they're getting a top quality kit.

I think dw is cool though. I'm gunna get a set whenever I can save up enough cash or convince mis padres to help me out a little... :)
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Joe on July 11, 2005, 09:52 AM
Some people can't or don't want to compare different kits or worry about brands. Those people can buy a dw because of the reputation they've earned through advertising and endorsements and rest assured they're getting a top quality kit.

Their top-quality nature is argued in this very thread.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: warmodder on July 11, 2005, 10:17 AM
I don't think anyone can argue the fact that dw doesn't make good drums. But top-quality, especially in something as subjective as drums, is percieved, and we can all shout til we're blue in the face about it, but some people will love'em and some people will hate'em.

Is it worth the money? If I love cars and driving, a ferrari f355 will be worth every penny to me despite the fact that you can't drive it all year round, it's quite a headache in a suburban area, and it costs an arm and a leg. Still to me, the driving enthusiast it's something I will love every summer.

To many a dw, despite it's shortcomings, may provide the same enjoyment.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on July 11, 2005, 06:53 PM
. . . There are plenty of drummers who will buy dw simply because so and so plays or because the price to them implies quality. . .

Very true.  But not only of DW.  In fact, for that very reason each month Modern Drummer magazine creates a little useless section called "Who's Playing What".  Many people believe that if you buy the same drums as so-and-so, you'll magically begin to play just like so-and-so.  And it ain't so.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Christopher on July 11, 2005, 07:18 PM
Many people believe that if you buy the same drums as so-and-so, you'll magically begin to play just like so-and-so.  And it ain't so.

What?!?!

You mean?

I won't sound just like...?

Man, next you'll be telling me that Santa isn't coming this year.  :(
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on July 11, 2005, 07:30 PM
Man, next you'll be telling me that Santa isn't coming this year.  :(

You'd better sit down. . .  :)

(besides, you'll shoot your eye out, kid!)
Title: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Lemonds on July 13, 2005, 08:09 AM
Interesting thread. As I told you guys on another thread. I just bought a new set of DW's. I had no intention though of buying them when I went shopping.

Most of you know that I am out touring. I've been approached and talked to various drum companies about endorsments. This can be a long and sometimes frustrating process. This whole time my old drumset is falling apart on me from the rigors of the road. Finding a kit I really wanted to play with, and the companies I had conversations with, always made me question myself if their product was what I REALLY wanted to play or not.

This said, I finally went to my wife and told her that I just wanted to go out and buy a kit that I really wanted and not be influenced by anyone etc.... She gave me the green light to go shopping. Let me back up and say that I had done some fly dates in the past few months where we had to rent a backline and the kits I was provided were DW's. I did not like any of them that I played, so DW was close to the bottom of the list in drums that I was interested in.

I shopped Gretsch, Yamaha, Brady, Fibes, Pearl, Ludwig, Mapex, and I reluctantly looked at some DW's. All of these brands had good and not so good points to them. I was not looking at price, just what I thought sounded good. After I played them all, the kit I chose was the DW kit. It was perfect for what I was looking for, and I put no restrictions on myself in terms of price or anything. There was no one more surprised than me when I bought them, just ask Bart! I've had conversations with him griping about DW's. But I've obviously changed that opinion.

I did get a deal on the kit, but only after I decided to buy. Does it sound like any other DW kit? No, not in my opinion. DW purchases exotic woods all over the world, so it makes it easier to find a DW kit that sounds different than the others.

Reading this thread I noticed that the subject turned towards pricing, and as pointed out the pricing and value of drums is a very subjective issue. If you are on a budget, then you have to look harder for the best sounding kit within your price range etc...

Different woods and heads make a world of difference in how any drum will sound. Stock heads provided by the factory are substandard in my opinion, and this makes the buying choice harder when shopping in a retail environment.

So hating DW's? Not anymore........


Title: Re: "Hating" DW
Post by: Joe on July 13, 2005, 08:16 AM
I would like to follow my participation in this thread by saying that, while I generally look toward DW with a skeptical eye (this is influenced mainly by the prices), my feelings for them do not include that of hate.  That's just some random word in the title of this thread, as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: DRWM on July 13, 2005, 03:31 PM
Maybe using "Hating" in the title was a little harsh.  I was just trying to illustrate that I've noticed when drummers talk about DW it's usually in a not so positive light that I haven't noticed as much when other companies come up.

Most of the time the negative comments shared by people I've noticed aren't backed up by experience with the drums.  People's reactions usually seem knee jerk, based on what they've heard other people say.  That's where I'm coming from on this thread.
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Vipercussionist on August 01, 2005, 07:54 PM
Well it just so happens I got talkin' to a DW rep at a Zorro drum clinic not too long ago. I told him that I really dig DW drums and I understand that they have a reputation for great tone, durability, and good looks. I then went on to tell him that I would never play DW drums because I simply couldn't afford them. To which he replied to how much value was put into every dollar I would spend on DW's should I purchase them. I replied "It doesn't matter if they're made of solid gold, and if I melt them down after I purchase them to get back double my money; they are too expensive for a working man to afford!" He looked puzzled as to how you simply didn't have enough money to buy such great drums. So I continue to play my $500.00 set of Vintage Ludwigs and get TONS of compliments on how good they look, how good they sound, and seeing as they are already 40 to 50 years old, (50s & 60s mixed) I guess they're durable too!!
The only way an ordinary guy will be able to afford DW drums is when he finally gets rich and famous, and then theyll GIVE you a set!!  
Go figure!!
Title: Re:Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 08, 2005, 09:06 PM

The only way an ordinary guy will be able to afford DW drums is when he finally gets rich and famous, and then theyll GIVE you a set!!  
Go figure!!

Cool!  I'm an ordinary guy.  So you're saying when I get rich and famous DW give me another set to go with the ones I already have?
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: optomagis on June 13, 2006, 03:52 AM
Just thought I'd have my 2 cents. I don't really 'hate' anything in the world, at least, not for an amount of time that would make me realise "I hate 'x'".

Anyway, that said, I don't particularly know much about DW, however, I do know that throughout Modern Drummer they advertise A LOT! I would say more than any other drum company, but I can't be too sure, I honestly haven't counted (and Vic Firth do those little side ads with all the drummers who are in that edition, so its probably close).

I guess people's 'hate' may come from that? I don't like certain people or companies ram stuff down my throat and say "this is the shi*t!". There are a lot of endorsees of DW, I can't be bothered naming them all, but big big names use the drums, so they must be either extremely good at making drums, or extremely good at writing contracts - I'll let you decide. Do they still use Keller Shells?

I have a mate whos got a DW Collectors series, and got it for about AUD$7,000+ (about US$5,200) and yes they sound good. To me they don't sound $7K good, like my $3K Brady's, but still, he's happy. The snare though, was something to be debated, as another friend of mine picked up a delapidated Yamaha snare from Cash Converters for about $30 and it ripped the guts out of this Collectors DW; all three of us agreeing.

I do have a 9002 Pedal, and its fantastic, I gotta hand it to DW on this front, this thing is SOLID! However, it does need a bit of lubricating after going at high speeds for a while.

I guess in essence what my opinion is, is that advertising can work both ways for a company, and DW is obviously a well foundationed company that has many followers, and I don't really get this 'hip to hate' thing where I live, but I guess, without even noticing, I was doing the same from all this promotion that they use. Also, I think that any kit can fall from the good and bad issues that I've mentioned (undynamic snare and brilliant pedal engineering), no matter how much you pay. Make up your own mind, and we can all keep arguing about anything forever!!!

Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Todd Knapp on June 13, 2006, 05:02 PM
I love the sound of DWs, but had some trouble with them when I was selling drums a few years back. In the two years I was at the shop, I never ONCE had a DW representative come by the store, give us a call or do any kind of product support. Compare this to the Yamaha guy who was there almost weekly. Moreover, at the time, their customer service was slow and unresponsive at times.

Another thing, we had a collection of broken DW 5000 pedals in the back room that we used for spare parts. I got more of those pedals coming back to me than any other high-end model. Moreover, they were a real pain to get apart and service. When I contacted DW and said, "look, I'd like to service these things for you, so give me some info (and/or the tools) on the best way to dismantle them without damaging them" their only response was to tell me to send them the pedals. When I said that THEIR customers didn't want to wait month after month after month to get a pedal fixed, they really didn't have a good response.

And another thing ;). I found some of their hardware to be "over-engineered" a la Sonor. Where one simple, easy-to-service, mechanism or part might do, they sometimes have two or three little parts. This was especially the case with some of thier multi-tom and cymbal stands. I much preferred Yamaha, say, for the simplicity and elegance of the engineering.

Anyway, I'm sure this is all subjective in a certain sense. I was supplied DW drums on one cruise ship I worked on and enjoyed playing them immensely, at least as far as their sound was concerned. I own a couple of DW snares, including a nice 6.5x14 Solid Maple Craviatto that I just adore when I need a big woody WHUMP just ever-so-slighty behind the beat... ;) You know the one...

Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Todd Knapp on June 13, 2006, 06:31 PM
I have to say the one product I think is a total blunder by dw is the 9000 snare stand. Its well made and has a great design and could possibly be one of the most adjustable snare stands on the market but if your like most people and don't take advantage of all the little locks and safteys that hold things in place and one of the handles comes loose bad things happen. Due to its design if the snare comes loose it tends to slide and fall totally over. I saw this happen to four drummers during the drum off it was really pathetic and looked pretty bad on DW's part. I mean you shouldn't have problems if you use the locks provided but not everyone wants to go through all that trouble, still thinking about buying one.

Funny you mention that - of two of those stands we had on a ship I just worked on - TWO were broken. The problem was with the (supposedly) locking tilter apparatus. I had the exact experience you speak of - I'm playing away and *KUCHUNK-KERPLOWEE* my snare drum is on the floor. Now, it may be that the guys who used it before me abused it, so I can't definitely blame DW for that one.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on June 13, 2006, 08:35 PM
I have to say the one product I think is a total blunder by dw is the 9000 snare stand. Its well made and has a great design and could possibly be one of the most adjustable snare stands on the market but if your like most people and don't take advantage of all the little locks and safteys that hold things in place and one of the handles comes loose bad things happen. Due to its design if the snare comes loose it tends to slide and fall totally over. I saw this happen to four drummers during the drum off it was really pathetic and looked pretty bad on DW's part. I mean you shouldn't have problems if you use the locks provided but not everyone wants to go through all that trouble, still thinking about buying one.

I try to avoid posting in the "Let's hate DW for [insert the reason of the day]" threads.  But I've been on vacation for a week and I'm feeling refreshed, and I feel like defending the company that makes my fine drums and hardware - and my decision to buy them. So, just to add a little antidote to already-poisoned waters. . .

Ahem.  I have a 9000 snare stand.  I've have had it for years.  I use the main tube height adjustment memory lock, but not all of the others.  I generally just set the snare in the basket without tightening the basket arms around the drum.  Never had a snare fall off.  Never had it slip.  Never had it seize up. Never had a screw strip out.  Never had the chrome chip off.  Never had the rubber feet fly off in the middle of a song.  Never had it make the bass player play out of tune.  Never had it cause the guitar player to get stoned - or lost.  Never heard it say anything bad about Bonham.  Never had it cause a singer to forget the lyrics.  Never had it talk back to me. 

On the negative side: it simply refuses to pack itself up after a gig.  I still have to do that.  All in all, I think I'll keep it.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on June 13, 2006, 08:59 PM
Dave, don't get me wrong I love DW but apparently we have had different experiences with the 9k snare stand. I'm generally on the positive side with DW, I don't think they're overpriced in the grand scheme of drums and what criticism i have for them is purley subjective and applies to their sound which I have grown out of. I'd say 95% of ppl who bash dw have little or tainted reasons why. I've played alot of DWs...I mean alot of them, i don't know how it is  around the rest of the US but theres at least 3 dw's in every guitar center i go to and alot of people i know have them so i've heard a pretty wide varity and i have to say they CAN be some of the greatest drums made.

No worries.  My post wasn't directed at you personally.  I'm just not a big fan of threads that bash other peoples' choice of drums.  DW seems to be a popular target.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Rusty Beckett on June 14, 2006, 12:28 PM
On the negative side: it simply refuses to pack itself up after a gig.  I still have to do that.  All in all, I think I'll keep it.

When you find this kit Dave there will be several thousands drummer in line to buy it  ;)

The sounds I've heard coming out of DW drums I like.  Of course they seem to be studio recordings or on TV.  That usually means they are well tuned, with good heads on them and EQ'ed to have the best sound.  I can remember the first set of DW drums I saw, in a drum shop in Portland, Oregon a long time ago and I was smitten by the lovely red cherry natural wood finish.  But, as with all the newer sets I'm attracted to the price set me back a little.  I'm still very happy playing on my 30+ year old Rogers.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: felix on June 14, 2006, 12:49 PM
Dave you kill me man.

I'd like to play one of the verticle grain sets they have out.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: felix on June 14, 2006, 12:57 PM
To Chip71:

When in holy hockysticks are you going to post some pics of your spider pine kit in the trans. redburst???

Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark P on June 14, 2006, 07:28 PM
Hi there all,

I love DW drums, and the family at DW too. I have been lucky enough to have DW drums all over the world, and I have never once had a problem with a single thing. It's nice to know when you go anywhere in the world that the kit supplied (even if it is a little neglected and often in need of a bit of tender loving care!) is going to be solidly built, with true shells, great edges, and really robust solid hardware. That's far before the family at DW drums is taken into consideration. John Good is like no other man on earth when it comes to passion for drum-making. I trust him with my passion too... Every time I get a DW product sent through, something has changed, refined, been improved. Be it a wing nut, new washers, a better memory lock - whatever... The company is tireless in its pursuit of perfection...

I find some people have a misplaced loyalty to other brands and as such, they dismiss DW or ___________ (insert brand name here) out of hand. They are so happy with their choice of drum set, that they couldn't concieve playing anything else. This is often the case I have found, with drum kits and cymbals in particular. Their brand loyalty ius to the detriment of every other...

Sticks are a very personal choice and there are still bad sticks out there, made of lesser quality wood that undergo less rigourous testing than other brands. But in the drum world, paying £600/$1000, can anyone say, hand on heart, that any company makes a bad kit? In and above that price range it is simply down to personal preferance. I don't play Mapex drums, but I wouldn't put someone off buying what is essentially a fantastic product, purely for the fact that I personally prefer DW drums...

That's just my perspective. Long live DW drums!!!

MP
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Chip Donaho on June 14, 2006, 09:41 PM
To Chip71:

When in holy hockysticks are you going to post some pics of your spider pine kit in the trans. redburst???


Check your email.... ;)  I tried to post, but something wouldn't go. Probably me.    ;D   Post one if you would like, problem on this end.   :P   By the way, they're awesome drums, notice which snare. That's Mapex hardware.... Sorry, I'll figure it out yet. DUH !!!
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Chip Donaho on June 14, 2006, 09:52 PM
So hating DW's? Not anymore........
Same here, much better than many give them credit for.   8)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: TheBeachBoy on June 15, 2006, 01:52 AM
DW's may be great, but they're not for me--I'm not crazy on their sound.  Because so many people use them, they sound pretty generic now.  I choose, as I can afford, drums that have a different "voice," something that sticks out a little more.

The only piece of DW h/w I use is a hi-hat clutch, simply because it was the only one GC had in stock when I needed a new clutch.  It works fine, but it does have a lock on it so the top hat doesn't come loose.  It uses a tuning key, but it's kind of a pain to use every gig since it rarely comes loose.  Nothing against them, I just think they are just way overpriced, and partly because of all the advertisment and endorsments.  I think they're just fine as far as drums go.  A little better than some, worse than some, all dependant on one's own personal taste, not counting the occasional dud.  However, I'd put a 1960's Camco (or a 50's George Way kit) up against a DW anyday, and expect the Camco to sound better; then again, I prefer that 60's sound.  I just wish I could afford a Camco; they're often just as expensive as the DW's.
Title: Chip's DeeDubs
Post by: felix on June 15, 2006, 07:47 AM
These are pretty awesome looking... I'm sure they don't sound too bad either  ;D  Dig that woofer and craviotto:

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woolyinc.com%2Fimages%2Fdw1.jpg&hash=fa59e6bb0a051b583d7ec2a14ed8dce7)

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woolyinc.com%2Fimages%2Fdw2.jpg&hash=792f95d2f1530e95cfcafef97aca7bc0)

Like I said when dw's came out, nothing really sounded like them.  I bought one of the first kits in cleveland back in 1989... it was a great kit.  I'm sure it's still out there.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Counts on June 15, 2006, 07:51 PM
Nice looking Kit.  I myself was looking for a new kit a few years back and I was looking at an aniversary series kit that was Natural maple finish.  I like the look, the sound, the hardware and I think they are a great drum kit.  The $6000 dollar price tag blew me away.  I have to go along with the only thing I see wrong with DW is the price.  Even the kits that were not aniversary were in my opinion, way over priced.  I bought a set of Tama Star Classics with the same finish as the DW's I looked at and, I have been more than happy with them.  The Tama list price is kinda high.  My bass drum lists for $1700 dollars but I didn't pay anything near that. My kit had been a floor model for almost a year and I feel like I stole them but it was what I was looking for and they were still in perfect shape.. Right place, Right time.
                                                    Nutty
Title: Re: Chip's DeeDubs
Post by: Chip Donaho on June 16, 2006, 08:36 AM
These are pretty awesome looking... I'm sure they don't sound too bad either  ;D  Dig that woofer and craviotto:
You may notice those are verticle grain maple drums. I've recently been changing from the stock DW heads. A Superkick 1/ Regulator combo on the main bass drum and do away with the pillow. My plan is to put Aquarian Force one-ply heads on the woofer (both sides) and do away with the pillow in it. With a pillow in both the main bass and woofer it's just too much thump, more of the bass sound needs to come out. So once again Aquarian came to the rescue.... The pillows will work great when sleeping in the van.  :D  This weekend I'm replacing the stock tom heads with "Response 2" heads. I haven't even played a gig with the stock "Edge" snare. That Craviotto is my "go to snare". Especially since I put Puresound 30's on it. By the way, I bought that set for less than half of the retail cost. There are deals to be made if your patient and come back with cash. That gig was an outdoor job at a coffee shop in Minneapolis. It was the first time ever I used the woofer. We did original songs and many people loved our music. One guy said," You guys are rockers! Not bad for a bunch of old farts." If he liked the sound with the stock heads, he'll like it even more when I get the set dialed. I can't bash DW, they're better than I expected. I've been talking with Roy Burns from Aquarian. He wants to know what I come up with for head choices on the woofer. He's never used one before, so it's experiment time. We both agree that the Force heads would be good. But I couldn't understand why DW put a pillow in the woofer also? After all, you don't kick directly on it.  ???  So I'm going to control the "punch" with the main bass and go for maximum "boom" from the woofer. It may take me a couple hundred in head swaps, but I'll get back to Roy with something he can tell the woofer users out there. There may be 5 of us.  ;D ....
Thanks for posting the pics Felix....  ;)   8)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Counts on June 16, 2006, 07:34 PM
Chip,
I have never seen anything like this Sub Woofer.  Does it really give you more bottom end or Frequencies that you can feel???
                                         Nutty
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: TheBeachBoy on June 17, 2006, 04:01 AM
Chip,
I have never seen anything like this Sub Woofer.  Does it really give you more bottom end or Frequencies that you can feel???
                                         Nutty

No personal experience, but from what I've heard, it's basically a giant mic, similar to the amp "mic" Mr. A used for recording.  It should give a nice low-end.  I'd imagine many clubs that most of us play in won't be ablt to utilize the woofer to its fullest potential, but it'd be great for recording, espeically if you're doing hip-hop or rap (yeah, I know most of those are drum machines).
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Chip Donaho on June 17, 2006, 08:53 AM
Chip,
I have never seen anything like this Sub Woofer.  Does it really give you more bottom end or Frequencies that you can feel???
                                         Nutty
The jury is still out on that one. I'm changing heads this weekend and we'll see. As they came out of the box both drums had a pillow. So they had lots of "in the chest" thump. I can only use the woofer in certain bars. The stage is small where my normal house gig is. So I don't trust careless musicians around it. But I'm getting ready for a big outdoor gig. I'll have different heads and be able to give a better opinion. I did get comments at the gig in the picture...."Those drums sound great." That's the only thing I've had to judge from. I haven't dialed that set in yet, but I now have the heads I want for them. I'll see if I can do some recording with them in the near future. I've heard a woofer is great for that. But they sure do get a lot of looks from people. Just plain different.....  8)  Roy from Aquarian said he thought I was on the right track with my thinking. I want to get the thump from the main drum and a "open boom" from the woofer. No pillows and better heads should get me that. I'm anxious to try it with the new heads..... I'll let everyone know my thoughts once I get it dialed. But a stupid soundman can kill even great sounding drums. I know, I've had words with a few of these idiots. Some of them shouldn't even have access to anything other than a radio knob. But that's another subject. So far the comments are good. But from behind the set it's hard to tell. I don't have mine attached to the other bass. It sits on a cradle and you just plug the mic cord into the side of the woofer. I had a special case made for it to match my other cases. Only takes me 2 minutes to set it up. Just set it on the cradle and go. I decided I don't want to purchase the attachments and drill the main bass drum. DW suggests to attach it to the other drum. No need to, the cradle does just fine.    ;)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: progsnob2112 on August 16, 2006, 11:56 PM
I don't really hate DW. If they offered me an endorsement, by all means I wouldn't say "No Thanks" but I prefer Tama, I have always played Tama, and I love everything about them. In fact, my graduation present was a nice set of Tama Starclassic's, and they sound AMAZING!

-Art
http://ajfmusic.com
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 17, 2006, 06:53 AM
I don't really hate DW. If they offered me an endorsement, by all means I wouldn't say "No Thanks"


You know that "endorsement" does not equal "free drums", right?  When a company grants you an endorsement deal, they sort of expect you to actually like their products and speak highly of them.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Lemonds on August 17, 2006, 01:58 PM
You know that "endorsement" does not equal "free drums", right?  When a company grants you an endorsement deal, they sort of expect you to actually like their products and speak highly of them.

Amen to that brother!!

PROUDLY endorsing DW Drums-

Dave Lemonds
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: wotg on August 27, 2006, 09:09 PM
Lots of quesswork and myths in this tread  :)
DW has been around for quite some time, but it was in the beginning of the ninties - and the andvent of the grunge area and all the fine players like Matt Cameron, David Abruzezze, Steven Perkins etc. that propelled DW to superstatus.
Their hardware and especially their pedals has always been top of the line with clever solutions and precise machining.
DW also has numerous patents, among the most famus is the hex link on doubble pedals that every manufacturer uses today. DW was also one of the first companies that really cared about acoustics and got the snowball rolling with the widespread use of RIMS and "virgin" bassdrums. yes i know RIMS had been around for a while, but they where far from common.
And it was in the years after DW`s rise to fame that all the other drummanufacturers came up with their own versions of acoustic insulaton, like starcast or ISS.
They were also one of the first companies that embraced snares in other diameters than 14"
As far as the quality of DW kit vs. other high-end manufacturers it really comes down to prefrances.
I`ve played both old (keller) DW drums and the new in house manufactured drums and i can`t tell the diffrence.
One thing that probably is true is that DW in the late ninties grew quicker than what DW could keep up with and that may be the reason we hear all the DW badmouthing. When your expanding that rapidly and everyone expects perfection it`s bound to happen that some unlucky guy gets a lemon.
I think that DW is a great company and their buisniess strategy is wery good.
I have never been let down by a piece of DW gear and i really don`t think that they are overpriced.
In manny ways we can thank DW for the quality and focus on perfection that most drumcompanies today strive for.
Along with Pearl and Tama DW has increased the quality, ease of use and continued to break new ground to bring us hardware solutions that is lightyears better than what i played on as a kid.
If someone sholud wonder - No i don`t work for DW!

Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: mc77 on August 28, 2006, 06:08 AM
I need to chime in on this subject. I just posted a thread about not being happy with midwest percussion customer service. And it would be great to report a good report, so here it goes....

DW customer service for me is the best I have ever been treated. Maybe I was in the right place at the right time. But I was talking with John Good after a Billy Ward clinic (great guy & clinic). That I got a set of DW's in a trade (did not buy them new from a retailer) & I'm having problems with the wrap starting to peel back on one of the toms. He gave me his card & told to call him when he's back in the office. Long story short. I ship my kit out to the DW factory & they sent me a new kit with fresh heads & everything. I was totally floored, because I'm not anybody that is special just you local drummer that loves the craft & the pathway that comes with the journey. He made me feel like I was one of the DW family. So for me I honour it to DW to be my first choice in ever buying a new kit again, thank you John Good & everyone at DW that I talked with during that time, you guys are the best!
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Counts on August 28, 2006, 07:58 AM
I don't really hate DW. If they offered me an endorsement, by all means I wouldn't say "No Thanks" but I prefer Tama, I have always played Tama, and I love everything about them. In fact, my graduation present was a nice set of Tama Starclassic's, and they sound AMAZING!

-Art
http://ajfmusic.com
Hi Progsnob2112,
I am with you.  I can't find anything wrong with DW.  I like the looks of them and I think they make a great product.  I would also not turn down an endorsement from them but I too am a Tama Star Classic fan. Best drums I have ever played. I also like Yamaha.  These three name, IMHO are the best
names in Drums these days.
                 Nutty
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 28, 2006, 10:15 AM
I need to chime in on this subject. I just posted a thread about not being happy with midwest percussion customer service. And it would be great to report a good report, so here it goes....

DW customer service for me is the best I have ever been treated. Maybe I was in the right place at the right time. But I was talking with John Good after a Billy Ward clinic (great guy & clinic). That I got a set of DW's in a trade (did not buy them new from a retailer) & I'm having problems with the wrap starting to peel back on one of the toms. He gave me his card & told to call him when he's back in the office. Long story short. I ship my kit out to the DW factory & they sent me a new kit with fresh heads & everything. I was totally floored, because I'm not anybody that is special just you local drummer that loves the craft & the pathway that comes with the journey. He made me feel like I was one of the DW family. So for me I honour it to DW to be my first choice in ever buying a new kit again, thank you John Good & everyone at DW that I talked with during that time, you guys are the best!

I've had nothing but quick, helpful responses from their customer service department over the years.  They make a good product, they fix problems brought to their attention, and they take care of thier customers.

Makes me think we need to start a "Loving DW" thread.

Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Counts on August 28, 2006, 10:21 AM
I've had nothing but quick, helpful responses from their customer service department over the years.  They make a good product, they fix problems brought to their attention, and they take care of thier customers.

Makes me think we need to start a "Loving DW" thread.


I am with you Dave? Start one.
                              Nutty
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: James Walker on August 28, 2006, 07:11 PM
How's about a "DW agnostics" thread, for those of us who neither "love" nor "hate" the company exclusively?  ;)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Danno on August 28, 2006, 07:34 PM
How's about a "DW agnostics" thread, for those of us who neither "love" nor "hate" the company exclusively?  ;)

There you go. I think they make great products, but my experience with DW customer service has been less than stellar. Same with Ludwig. The best customer service I've experienced with a drum company is with Yamaha.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 28, 2006, 07:45 PM
How's about a "DW agnostics" thread, for those of us who neither "love" nor "hate" the company exclusively?  ;)

Can't we all just get along?   ;D
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Mark Counts on August 28, 2006, 07:49 PM
How's about a "DW agnostics" thread, for those of us who neither "love" nor "hate" the company exclusively?  ;)
Very nice to see you post again James.  Haven't seen anything from you for about a month.

Dave, You are right, what is there to hate about any of this?  It is just drums we are talking about.
                   Nutty
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 28, 2006, 07:51 PM

Dave, You are right, what is there to hate about any of this?  It is just drums we are talking about.


Agreed.  Its the principle of YMMV in play here.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Slingerland5 on August 29, 2006, 02:22 PM
It seems to me that DW is like any product that started out small and got big - it's cooler when it's esoteric and harder to find. 15 or 20 years ago you couldn't just walk into a music store or drum shop in a medium-to-large sized city and see and play a DW kit like you can now. They weren't stacked up along the walls because they really were custom made. They were expensive then because you were paying for American labor. Today DW is no longer small and they're not using American labor exclusively. While they are based in the US, I don't see them as being that much different from the Japanese companies.
I don't hate DW. I use their pedals and some of their hardware, and I've got a DW snare drum that I bought used that's great. I wouldn't buy a new kit, but it's mostly because of some of their business practices, as well as substantiated reports of serious problems with some of their shells.  It seems to me that a lot of what you're paying for is the name, and for that amount of money I can get a better sounding kit from a true custom builder. While a custom set won't have the resale value of a DW, at least I'll know who the money is going to.

Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm all for small drum companies. I own all DW Hardware and enjoy it very much. (Except for when I'm carrying it)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 29, 2006, 03:03 PM
I owned a DW Custom --  http://www.randywalker.com/rw1.gif]this one  to be exact. I've previously owned three seperate Yammie Customs and a Sonor. The toms sizes were practically the same, and the only way I could really get a distinguishing sound was by using different heads and tuning (big shock).

I didn't really care for my experience with DW hardware, and ended up selling the kit for that very reason. It was too dang heavy! hehe
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: James Walker on August 29, 2006, 03:08 PM
I owned a DW Custom --  http://www.randywalker.com/rw1.gif]this one  to be exact.

Hmm...looks a bit like a Noble & Cooley, no?
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 29, 2006, 03:16 PM
I owned a DW Custom --  http://www.randywalker.com/rw1.gif]this one  to be exact. I've previously owned three seperate Yammie Customs and a Sonor. The toms sizes were practically the same, and the only way I could really get a distinguishing sound was by using different heads and tuning (big shock).

I didn't really care for my experience with DW hardware, and ended up selling the kit for that very reason. It was too dang heavy! hehe

Um, if that's the set you had trouble with, I think you're hating the wrong manufacturer.

I see comments here and there about people getting rid of their DW hardware because it was too heavy.  I gotta ask: Did anyone pick this stuff up and check the weight before buying it?  Seems people were surprised by the weight.  Personally, I've not found it to be any heavier than the Slingerland Magnum hardware or the Ludwig Modular hardware.  The weight is not fun to haul around, but it sure comes in handy when you want to keep thise cymbals from tipping or or want to hang other stuff with clamps.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 29, 2006, 03:26 PM
Hmm...looks a bit like a Noble & Cooley, no?

It had that custom lacquer on it that made it look less like a DW, IMO. They sounded about as good as they looked.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: James Walker on August 29, 2006, 03:28 PM
It had that custom lacquer on it that made it look less like a DW, IMO.

Actually, I'm looking at the badges and lugs - those look like N&C to me, unless you had DW make a kit with N&C parts.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 29, 2006, 03:29 PM
Um, if that's the set you had trouble with, I think you're hating the wrong manufacturer.

I never said I hated DW. They're just as good as the next company, IMO.

I see comments here and there about people getting rid of their DW hardware because it was too heavy.  I gotta ask: Did anyone pick this stuff up and check the weight before buying it?  Seems people were surprised by the weight.  Personally, I've not found it to be any heavier than the Slingerland Magnum hardware or the Ludwig Modular hardware.  The weight is not fun to haul around, but it sure comes in handy when you want to keep thise cymbals from tipping or or want to hang other stuff with clamps.

I have a bad back, but it only hurts if I aggravate over a few minutes. It never dawned on me the impact heavy duty hardware would have on my back. I wasn't ripping DW hardware at all. It does exactly what they say it does.

I tend to prefer Yamaha's hardware, for a variety of reasons, but I'm certainly advocating Yammies over other manufacturers.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 29, 2006, 03:30 PM
Hmm...looks a bit like a Noble & Cooley, no?

Oops. Linked to the wrong kit.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 29, 2006, 03:37 PM
I never said I hated DW. They're just as good as the next company, IMO.
Cool.  My bad.  I was referring to the thread title.

I have a bad back, but it only hurts if I aggravate over a few minutes. It never dawned on me the impact heavy duty hardware would have on my back.

Same here.  And oddly enough the one and only time I yoinked my back due to drumming I did it lifting the floor tom out of my trunk!  I just leaned over the wrong way, had a bad angle. . .  who knows?  Hadn't even gotten to the hardware cases yet!
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 29, 2006, 04:28 PM
OK. There's no link to the kit. That was Randy's N&C kit and I wasn't paying attention. If you can imagine a DW that exact same color, that was the one I bought from him when he went  http://www.randywalker.com/gear.html]all Canadian  on me. ;)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Danno on August 29, 2006, 04:31 PM
I own all DW Hardware and enjoy it very much. (Except for when I'm carrying it)

Yeah, except for when you're carrying it. I just this week finished selling all my DW 9700 cymbal stands on eBay and replaced them with little Sonor straight stands that I got from Musician's Friend for $20 apiece. Those DWs were murder to lug around, almost 13 pounds each.
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Slingerland5 on August 29, 2006, 04:56 PM
good idea with the lighter hardware. I guess the weight of the DW stands could come in handy when some wacko tries to steal my hardware case.  ;)
Title: Re: Hating DW
Post by: Dave Heim on August 29, 2006, 05:05 PM
good idea with the lighter hardware. I guess the weight of the DW stands could come in handy when some wacko tries to steal my hardware case.  ;)

Just look for the guy at the pawn shop wearing a truss.  :)