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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: Ryan on February 15, 2006, 05:11 PM

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Ryan on February 15, 2006, 05:11 PM
I've heard them called "12th notes" on more than a few occasions. Though this seems like liberal use of the Western system of rhythmic notation, the method lives on.

What harm, if any, would it do to regard them this way? What good, if any, would it do?

Rack 'em.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 15, 2006, 06:25 PM
It does you no good because there is no such thing as a 12th note.

There's whole, half, quarter, eighth, sixteenth, 32nd, 64th, 128th notes/rests ... and so on.

The type of note describes it's note value notation ... not it's grouping. If you play a grouping of 6 notes, called a sextuplet, it's going to be made up of one of the note values I mentioned above ... typically sixteenth-notes.

If you play 4 groups of triplets in 4/4 time, you are playing eighth-note triplets ... not 12th notes. It would be a lot easier if people would simply learn the theory rather than make up new terms that have no need and don't communicate clearly.

Caprende?
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: felix on February 15, 2006, 06:36 PM
prolly just getting it confused with 12/8 time

I guess you could double sextuplets and call them 12's

But I'd just say they were dbl'd sextuplets and not sound well, how can I put this mildly- stoopid?

now you can play 11's and that would be cool!  But that's almost just as dumb if you ask me.  I actually play 7's quite a bit *well used to and probably should be right now!* but you could play 7's in one measure and 5's in the next- then you could say "I played a 12 note gouping in those two measures"

Semantics.

Just groove and keep learning stuff.
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2006, 06:58 PM
Ryan - four groups of 8th note triplets in 4/4 would indeed give 12 notes spread equally across the bar, but they aren't referred to as 12th notes. I suppose one could loosely refer to them as such, but it would be incorrect since they are actually 8th note triplets :P. It's also important to note that 12 notes spread equally in a bar of 12/8 are still 8th notes.

One thing that I am unsure of is how to name denominations of the quarter note that are uncommon. 5s are ok -  quintuplets, but what about 7s, 9s, 10s and 11s? Presumably 12s are given a name somehow based on 32nd note triplets?

EDIT - Felix, I think that 11s can sound pretty cool when used sparingly.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 15, 2006, 07:01 PM
Anyone can call it what they want ... playing 12, 11, whatever ... but there is no such thing as 12th notes ... that's the point I was trying to make.

If you are trying to say that you are playing 12 strokes per quarter note, that would twice as fast as a sixteenth-note sextuplet. So just say that you are playing 32nd-note sextuplets ... OR ... 64th-note triplets.

If you stick to the math and use real music theory terms and notation, you'll be a lot better off ... and everyone will have a better chance of knowing what you are talking about.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Chris on February 15, 2006, 07:06 PM
Quote from: Bart on February 15, 2006, 07:01 PM
If you stick to the math and use real music theory terms and notation, you'll be a lot better off ... and everyone will have a better chance of knowing what you are talking about.

So how does one refer to 7s, 9s, 10s and 11s? Using Latin stems? ie 7s = septuplets? 9s = noveuplets?
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 15, 2006, 07:18 PM
Quote from: Chris on February 15, 2006, 07:06 PM
So how does one refer to 7s, 9s, 10s and 11s? Using Latin stems? ie 7s = septuplets? 9s = noveuplets?


If it's note groupings, not phrasing, yes.
Quintuplets, Septuplets, etc.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 15, 2006, 07:19 PM
Quote from: Chris on February 15, 2006, 07:06 PM
So how does one refer to 7s, 9s, 10s and 11s? Using Latin stems? ie 7s = septuplets? 9s = noveuplets?


You refer to them based on the note value of the notes within the grouping:

8th-note septuplets, 16th-note septuplets, and so on.

Another common notational device in more modern music is to show proportional groupings, for example, you might see a group of seven 16th notes, with this written over the group of notes:

7:4

This indicates you fit seven equally spaced notes within the space that four 16th-notes would usually take.

But Bart's right. The names of the notes are well established, and keep doubling in their incrementation: 8th, 16th, 32nd, 64th. The system works.

Plus, the 12th-note concept only works in 4/4. What if you're playing in 4/4, and suddenly the time signature changes to 3/4. By your logic, you'd then be playing "ninth notes." There's no need for that - they're simply 8th-note triplets, regardless of the time signature.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: mapexdrummer1234 on February 15, 2006, 09:31 PM
I doesnt matter how you "count" them, i use triplet. find what works for you, if that works then its all good, but No one else willl be able to get what your saying.**


**No insult intended

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Jon E on February 16, 2006, 07:13 AM
QuoteWhat harm, if any, would it do to regard them this way? What good, if any, would it do?

OK, there are lots things in music that can be "fudged" or have some grey areas.  Rhythmic dictation is not really one of them.


Coming from a "trained" musician's viewpoint, I can only echo Bart and Mr.A's points:  Learn the proper musical terminology and use it appropriately and we will all be on the same page.

It can get very frustrating having to "dumb down" my musical training/knowledge in order to communicate with people who aren't willing to "smart up" themselves musically.

(btw: Ryan, this response really isn't aimed at YOU in particular.  I'm glad you're asking what is right and wrong. PS: Give my regrads to Terrence in Sierra Madre!  ;)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2006, 07:50 AM
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 15, 2006, 07:19 PM
You refer to them based on the note value of the notes within the grouping:

8th-note septuplets, 16th-note septuplets, and so on.

I assumed that that would be the case (using established note values) but probably should have made a point of writing it.

Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 15, 2006, 07:19 PM

Plus, the 12th-note concept only works in 4/4. What if you're playing in 4/4, and suddenly the time signature changes to 3/4. By your logic, you'd then be playing "ninth notes." There's no need for that - they're simply 8th-note triplets, regardless of the time signature.

Ah, but by using that logic one could argue that an 8th note (or, indeed, any established value) would no longer be an 8th note in 3/4.

I think I read somewhere that the established note values (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 etc) are based on the length of time occupied in a bar of 4/4.

But I agree with the argument that convention is convention for a REASON, and it should be stuck to.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 08:03 AM
A key tenet of notation is that a note is a certain kind of note - regardless of the time signature - based on the appearance of the note.

"hollow" note = whole
"hollow" note with stem = half
solid note with stem = quarter
solid note with stem and one flag = eighth
solid note with stem and two flags = sixteenth

And so on. Thus, an eighth is always an eighth, regardless of time signature, or how many of them are grouped together, as long as the notes are solid, have a stem, and have one flag. When you read music, you look at everything: time signature, type of note, grouping of notes, etc.

But the system is well-established, and the logic is solid. No need to reinvent it, particularly when doing so will DECREASE the clarity of communicating with others who may not share your own personal sense of logic.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Chris on February 16, 2006, 08:10 AM
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 08:03 AM
A key tenet of notation is that a note is a certain kind of note - regardless of the time signature - based on the appearance of the note.

"hollow" note = whole
"hollow" note with stem = half
solid note with stem = quarter
solid note with stem and one flag = eighth
solid note with stem and two flags = sixteenth

And so on. Thus, an eighth is always an eighth, regardless of time signature, or how many of them are grouped together, as long as the notes are solid, have a stem, and have one flag. When you read music, you look at everything: time signature, type of note, grouping of notes, etc.

But the system is well-established, and the logic is solid. No need to reinvent it, particularly when doing so will DECREASE the clarity of communicating with others who may not share your own personal sense of logic.

I agree utterly with what you just posted, but my previous post was merely pointing out that the whole "12th note in 4/4 becomes 9th note in 3/4" strain of logic could equally be applied to an 8th note - ie move it out of 4/4 and it becomes something other than an 8th note. Or vice versa. One could argue that if the note value was labelled as a 12th note, it would ALWAYS be a 12th note, even in 3/4. However,  I know that there is no such thing as a 12th note!

[edit - although I suppose if there was such a thing as a 12th note, it would have either a different head or some sort of flag to make in distinguishable from the other note values]
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 16, 2006, 08:31 AM
Quote from: Chris on February 16, 2006, 08:10 AM
[edit - although I suppose if there was such a thing as a 12th note, it would have either a different head or some sort of flag to make in distinguishable from the other note values]

Exactly. There is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note.  8)

Anyone calling anything a "12th-note" ...
1. Doesn't know what they are really talking about.
2. Are making up terms to try to explain what they don't understand.
3. Don't realize that there are terms already in place to describe what this is.
4. Are foolish to try and defend their stance.

For everyone reading this thread ...
I'm not trying to be harsh, but truthful. Asking questions are great ... as long as you are willing to accept the truth and/or real answer. I'm not interested in debating music theory with anyone. There ARE absolutes in music ... and what we are discussing is one of those absolutes.

Trying to use the term "12th-note" is like trying to change the English alphabet. You can't just create some new letter and start arguing or justifying your point; its foolishness. There are only 26 letters in the English alphabet; period. The same is true with music notation. A note value is established, has a name, and has a particular look (symbol) for it; period.

Arguing the fundamentals of music, the basic building blocks, is just silly and a complete waste of time ... in my opinion.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Dave Heim on February 16, 2006, 08:42 AM
Quote from: Bart on February 16, 2006, 08:31 AM
Trying to use the term "12th-note" is like trying to change the English alphabet. You can't just create some new letter and start arguing or justifying your point; its foolishness.

Like l33t sp3@k!  :)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 16, 2006, 09:01 AM
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 08:03 AMcommunicating with others who may not share your own personal sense of logic.

I love that phrase!  
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 11:33 AM
Interesting point Chris - what you said totally makes sense.  It seems as if the note values are "defined" from 4/4 time signature.

This is analogous to your weight.  When someone asks you how much you weigh, you say, (XXX pounds).  You don't say, (XXX pounds, on the planet earth, at such & such elevation...).  But theoretically, you should give all that info.  A better system would be to not use weight, but to use mass instead.

It's as if all note values should have a little asterisk next to them that says, "As defined in 4/4 time signature".  But since we all know that already, we just accept it.

As an engineer, I deal with this junk all the time.  People mix up weight and mass (they're not the same), people also mix up units, etc.  It can be really frustrating - especially when you have multiple countries and standards involved.  Embarassingly, the US's system is the worst .


I've often wondered what to call these things - we used to call them 9'lets: where you have a bar of 4/4, and you play two sets of quarter note triplets - giving you 6 notes: R L R L R L.  Then, instead of playing singles like that, you play: R l r L r l R l r L r l R l r L r l.

total, there are sort of two sets of 9 notes - hence the term 9-lets (certainly not a standard accepted term).  I don't know how else you would communicate them, other than saying "9-lets".  The proper terminology might be: "The quarter note triplet eigth note triplets" maybe?

I've resorted to what Mr. A said above: put a ratio over the grouping - like 9:4, etc.

This stuff is interesting, because it's half math, and half "look, this is how we do it, so just do it....".  I appreciate both sides of the fence on this one.


Funny thing - these problems really existed in units we use every day.  The meter, for example, has been "defined" as recently as, I believe, 1983.  Before 1983, there was still some ambiguity.

The standard unit of mass in the SI (international units standard) is the kilogram.  For this unit, they have not come up with a mathematical standard.  So instead, there sits in a box somewhere in this world, "one kilogram".  No joke.  The only way to truly define it is to refer to that box!

The second is defined as the half-life of some organism or something crazy like that.  The meter is so many wavelengths of some light through some medium.

In summary, for now, I'll stick with note values as defined in a bar of 4/4, because people will understand what I'm talking about!
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Joe on February 16, 2006, 12:00 PM
Quote from: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 11:33 AM
The second is defined as the half-life of some organism or something crazy like that.  The meter is so many wavelengths of some light through some medium

From Wikipedia (I just had to look, I find this very interesting):

The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

[The meter] is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in absolute vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second.

Prior to 1960 (when the standard was defined as equal to 1,650,763.73 wavelengths of the orange-red emission line in the electromagnetic spectrum of the krypton-86 atom in a vacuum), a prototype metal bar in various incarnations was referred to after 1799, before when a few other ways of determining its length were used.

Regarding the topic:  Isn't this why 4/4 is "common time"?  Since it's the standard upon which notes are based?

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Gaetano Nicolosi on February 16, 2006, 12:04 PM
Quote from: Bart on February 16, 2006, 08:31 AM
Exactly. There is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note.  8)

Anyone calling anything a "12th-note" ...
1. Doesn't know what they are really talking about.
2. Are making up terms to try to explain what they don't understand.
3. Don't realize that there are terms already in place to describe what this is.
4. Are foolish to try and defend their stance.

For everyone reading this thread ...
I'm not trying to be harsh, but truthful. Asking questions are great ... as long as you are willing to accept the truth and/or real answer. I'm not interested in debating music theory with anyone. There ARE absolutes in music ... and what we are discussing is one of those absolutes.

Trying to use the term "12th-note" is like trying to change the English alphabet. You can't just create some new letter and start arguing or justifying your point; its foolishness. There are only 26 letters in the English alphabet; period. The same is true with music notation. A note value is established, has a name, and has a particular look (symbol) for it; period.

Arguing the fundamentals of music, the basic building blocks, is just silly and a complete waste of time ... in my opinion.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH BART!

There is nothing to argue about. If somebody tells me to play 12th notes, I will say: "are you talking about music?"

We learn the right music therms in music theory, because that's it!



Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 12:25 PM
With all due respect, part of progress is questioning stuff.

A friend of mine is a language buff.  He gets totally frustrated how new words make it into the dictionary every year that he doesn't consider (legitimate).  But he laughs at himself for getting frustrated because this is how language has always been.  It's how it evolves.

Maybe there's no such thing as a 12-let, but by this same reasoning, I should never be allowed to use the word "sextuplet", and should only say, "16th note triplets".

Everyone says sextuplet.  They also say, "7's, 9's", etc.  If that improves the communication, it just does.  The 12-let is stretching things further, because that number is so big that it's hard to digest.  Probably easier to say "two sixes" or something.

It's just like using the word "paradiddle".  It's a nonsensical word that describes a sticking.  It should probably have no place in music theory, right?  But we use it because it works.

Some people use 6's, 5's, etc. just like we say flam drags, swisses, etc.  It's "street language" for something we all understand.  Although in some cases the use of these words could make things more confusing, it could also aid in communication.

And use of these things doesn't necessarily mean you don't understand.

I know I should say, "Hello fine sir, how is your day going".  This doesn't mean I can't say, "Duuuuuude - what is up????"

They're both valid in my opinion.

If nobody questioned this stuff, an inch would still be 1 twelfth of some king's foot or something.


On a similar note - is a "Power Chord" a "real" thing?  I bet 40 years ago it was not, and you'd be called foolish/improper/unable to understand, etc.  for using such a word.  Now it's part of standard electric guitar playing.


In the long run, communicating with other musicians seems to be a mixture of all of the above - "just doing it", theory, math, etc..  Just like if I'm wearing a suit and tie at a function with my grandmother, I'll use different language than when I'm hanging out with friends my age.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Shane Stylianos on February 16, 2006, 12:39 PM
Quote from: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 12:25 PM

I know I should say, "Hello fine sir, how is your day going".  This doesn't mean I can't say, "Duuuuuude - what is up????"

No, but it is still regarded as poor grammar/speaking (or, at least in my family).  LOL  I wonder if this falls under the "if all your friends started jumping off a bridge...." catagory.  Foshizzle.  ;)

Quote from: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 12:25 PMIf nobody questioned this stuff, an inch would still be 1 twelfth of some king's foot or something.

For some reason, I was still under the impression that it was! Or at least the last king.  What is its basis now?

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 16, 2006, 12:52 PM
Quote from: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 12:25 PMIt's just like using the word "paradiddle  It should probably have no place in music theory, right?  But we use it because it works.

And also because it is a recognized drum rudiment.  

Quote from: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 12:25 PMJust like if I'm wearing a suit and tie at a function with my grandmother, I'll use different language than when I'm hanging out with friends my age.

Excellent point!  When describing music notation you should use the correct term whenever possible.  In the past few years there has been a huge increase in music slang and at times it is almost impossible for people outside the slang culture to communicate effectively.  This is one reason Latin is used so much for scientific purposes.  Being a ââ,¬Å"deadââ,¬Â language it changes very little over time.  
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Dave Heim on February 16, 2006, 12:54 PM
Quote from: Gaetano_Nicolosi on February 16, 2006, 12:04 PM
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH BART!

There is nothing to argue about. If somebody tells me to play 12th notes, I will say: "are you talking about music?"

We learn the right music therms in music theory, because that's it!


I agree.  The original question was "Can triplets in 4/4 be regarded as 12th notes?"  The answer - as stated by many - is no.  

You can call them anything you want.  But if you want to carry on a conversation using time-tested, accepted, theory-based musical terms, then 'no' you can't call them 12th notes.

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 16, 2006, 01:41 PM
JamesC ... I have no problem with new words ... but the argument about 12th-notes is just silly. First of all, there is already perfectly fine terms in place to describe what "12th-notes" is trying to replace or substitute.

Furthermore, its very confusing using the term "12th-notes" because there is no such thing. You can slice it and dice it but you can't come up with a 12th-note. Like has been stated time and again, there are only 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc. The number 12 is not a choice when it comes to note values.

Now, if you want to say "12 grouping", "12-stroke", or anything like that, you would be fine to do so and can make sense of it using those words. But to tell someone to play "12th-notes" makes no sense because there is no 12th note. You could play 12 notes in the span of one quarter-note, or one eighth-note, or one sixteenth-note, etc., but you can't play 12th-notes because there is no such thing, nor can you mathematically create a 12th-note using the Western Music Notation System.

If you try to play something in a time span or time signature that doesn't allow for it mathematically (that meaning that its divisible by some numer in direct relation to the time signature), then you would use the ratio notation which Mr. A pointed out. If you are in 7/8 and you want to play 12 strokes evenly spaced in that time signature, you could write 12 eighth-notes in one bar of 7/8 and write 12:7 over it. This tells you to play 12 notes in the span of the normal 7.

I still think its silly to argue the point. The notation system used in western music (as in the western hemisphere or our planet) does not allow for 12th-notes ... and it can not work. People using the term 12th-note are doing so ONLY because they don't know the real term, so they are trying to find a way to describe it. They are not creatiing some hip new term or definition that any musician will ever use or adopt. What they are doing, in my opinion, is making themselves look very foolish.

This is a losing argument, debate or battle ... whatever you want to call it.

All of your examples JamesC, like the paradiddle, is not a good example because the word or label does not take away from another truth in order to create something new. The word "12th-note" is taking from a basic truth of music notation and trying to make something else out of it. Its twisting and perverting the truth and logic of the math. If you want to call eighth-note triplets which fill a measure of 4/4 something else ... that's fine ... but you CAN NOT call it 12th-notes because the process of taking a number and following it with the word "note" or "notes" has already been established to mean an actual note value.

So create all you want, but if you try to twist an established truth which is based on math & logic ... you are not going to get very far. Call it a twelvelet for all I care, but a 12th-note can not exist; period.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 02:23 PM
Alright, I don't want to get all excited.  I was trying to make the point that just because someone calls something a "12th note", it doesn't mean they are necessarily, "making up terms to try to explain what they don't understand".

It's just a way of saying, "one of those little notes of that group of 12...."  It doesn't mean they're advocating re-standardizing the notation system.

An example would be when playing with a person who doesn't totally understand triplets.  Instead of saying, "accent the third partial of the second triplet", you may say, "accent the sixth 12th note..."  Heck, "partial" may even be an incorrect word, but it's used because it gets the idea accross.

Goofy, but it could work to communicate the idea.  In the same way that, "dude, it goes like this..." (plays lick on hi-hat so guitar player understands).

It doesn't make someone dumb.

Again, 12th note is an extreme example, so it does sound goofy.

Anyone who is knowledgable to be breaking down notes into groups of 12 and talk about this stuff most likely understands what triplets, 8th notes, etc. are.

I do see where you're coming from - I'd hate to see someone tell a new student to "play a bar of 12th notes".  That would make me cringe for sure.
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Ryan on February 16, 2006, 02:43 PM
I just spent about an hour typing the definitive work on this subject, only to have it erased by the timer on this (public) computer. I'll do it again later. Kinda burnt for now.

And the experimental time signature thing isn't slang; there's math to support it, though it's obvious that the local curmudgeons relentlessly equate their exhaustive knowledge of the inside of "the box" with unfatomable musical omniscience, to the chagrin of us, the marginally-competent laity.

It's worth a giggle, I guess.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 02:49 PM
I think the point is that if you're going to look at written music analytically enough to understand what a "12th note" would be, why not simply learn what it's REALLY called?
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: felix on February 16, 2006, 02:54 PM
I never heard of a darn 12 th "note" in all my life.

There is no such thing and there never will be.  And if that day ever comes I'll shall refute it and only play whole  rests on piano my remaining days in the vein of my idol John Cage.

We have had some people come in and out of here in the past with experimental subdivisions and it's really a waste of time- *he he he*

All ya need to do is stick with the basics and perfect the musical structure already in place.  That and talent itself are all one need's to make their mark as a great musician.  The rest is *cue up high pitched new yorker magazine critic's voice* TOTAL CRAP!!!!
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 02:54 PM

You're reinventing a wheel that's already quite round. Why bother? Particularly for something as mundane as an 8th-note triplet?

I'd be VERY surprised if in the insanely complex  drum music written by people like Delecluse, Cirone, Firth, and even Frank Zappa, they haven't already established sufficient notational methodology to capture any ideas you may be trying to write.

Certainly a case could be made for a notational system for music not so firmly based on increments of two; ie, music VERY different from "conventional" western music. If that's the direction you're going, knock yourself out. I've always been amazed at how "four-centric" music is, particularly since we have five digits on each limb. So if you're boldly going where no musician has gone before, go for it.

But coming up with a new name for 8th-note triplets seems like dumbing down, not innovation.
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Ryan on February 16, 2006, 02:58 PM
Hey, I'm not arguing with the current notational system; it works fine.

But like I said...
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Ryan on February 16, 2006, 03:01 PM
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 02:54 PM

You're reinventing a wheel that's already quite round. Why bother? Particularly for something as mundane as an 8th-note triplet?

... coming up with a new name for 8th-note triplets seems like dumbing down, not innovation.


Agreed, but you're not following the line of thought to its logical end.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 03:15 PM
Okay, what does a single 12th note look like?

An 8th note is readily identifiable, regardless of context or time signature. As is an 8th-note triplet.

I can call one of the notes that makes up an 8th note triplet a floobysnoogle just as easily as calling it a 12th note. Of course, neither exists in the known lexicon of musical notation, but if it makes me happy, I can call it that.

You can come up with a new notational system. You can also speak Esperanto. But you'll still face the eternal question: why bother?
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Ryan on February 16, 2006, 03:42 PM
Well, Keith, you're totally missing what I'm saying, as is everyone else.

But maybe you're right, you know? Why bother? I mean, why not go back to discussing ride cymbals? Everything ride cymbals! Get it here! Come get your stimulating discussion about ride cymbals!

Or how about discussing, for the 468 thousandth time which drummer is your favorite and why?

Because, even if my point in bringing this up WERE to call an 8th note triplet by another name, at least that would be SOMETHING, and at least I would have TRIED to do something unique.

Give me a guy who tries to use whatever amount of brain he does have to start a conversation over some mentally-flatlined prick who thinks that because he attended Bob's Barnyard School of Drumz and has 14,643 posts on an internet forum that he's the final authority on all things tambourine ANY day.

And maybe you'll get your way. Maybe I'll have no great thought here -- or even a decent one -- and you'll have what you've very obviously been itching to get for days now...

Me humiliated, a Ryan-free forum, a few (more) online back pats from Bart Elliott and, essentially, the final proof that you're smarter, wittier, wiser, more well adjusted, more professional, more well traveled, friendlier, nicer, more chivalrous, more musically inclined, more punctual, and just, plain better than me.

I get it. I'll stay gone.

For get the explanation of this topic. I've got to get busy thinking about more practical things. You know: hunting, digging, etc.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation about cosmically important things, like how real "mature" drummers will recognize that Ringo Starr was teh best kazoo playur in the hole Ar-KIN-sawz!

Talk amongst yourselves. I'll go back to the rudimental forums and discuss the fact that, mathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with.

And I'll do it with my really boring, uneducated co-conversers, who haven't yet booked enough gigs at the local state fair to realize the scope of their online superpowers.

::)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 16, 2006, 03:54 PM
Gee, glad you're not bitter or anything.

I'm not shouting down your thread. I have an extensive music education, and I'm trying to respond thoughtfully to your initial question about whether it was good or bad to call 8th-note triplets 12th notes.

You asked. I gave you an answer, provided my reasons for my answer, offered scenarios where alternative notation might be worth pursuing, and in general clarified my position.

And I managed to do so without calling anybody a mentally-flatlined prick.

So what's the problem? What's the great logic you allude to that defeats the notational system that was good enough for Mozart and Zappa? Why is my well-thought-out and carefully expressed opinion making you angry?

You've offered no compelling reason to call an 8th-note triplet a 12th note. Yet this thread stands open, waiting for you to do so.

Well? We're waiting. Got logic? Bring it on.

But lose the name-calling. It makes your argument no more compelling, and it's offensive.



Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 16, 2006, 03:58 PM
I wish I'd jumped on this thread sooner...

I've heard mention of 12th and 24th notes before.  The only places that I've heard of them, though, were in drum corps communities...and drum corps love to "reinvent the wheel".  However, it seems ironic that drum corps are so fond of polymeters but that these particular drum corps members haven't realized that triplets are polymetric rhythms.

For some reason, corps vets like to make things a lot more complicated than they really are (i.e. trying to make a triple based polyrhythm a duple rhythm, for example).  I've also found a case where they try to make simple rhythms polymetric ones.
I downloaded some transcriptions of some drum corps licks at one time and I kept having a strange rhythm turn up...It looked like two consecutive groups of five sixteenth notes...each group had 5:3 written above it.  I acquired the actual recordings and found out that they were eggbeaters...which (for those of you who don't know) are:

Right handed 16th note triplet    RRR
Followed by...
Two left 32nd notes      LL

When two of these are played in a row, it lasts exactly a beat and a half (the span of a dotted 1/4 note)

I have seen numerous weird 5:3 notations for eggbeaters....

It is my belief, that this is the origin of the 12th/24th note...now can we PLEASE put it to rest...??

--adam--

P.S. I'm with Bart and Mr. A...There is not such thing as a 12th note.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 04:02 PM
Ryan, dude, this place is cool.  It's one of the most down to Earth forums of any kind I've seen on the net.

Come on man, I've seen you on a couple forums over the years, and dig lots of your conversations, and sometimes you just downright have me cracking up.


Now, how about those flams?  Does the grace note land on the beat, or before it?   ;D
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 16, 2006, 04:03 PM
Ryan ... I've had enough of your and your attitude my friend. I'm making this public so that everyone knows that this is MY call to mute you. I've continued to show good faith with you and allow you opportunities to turn your attitude around, but I've personally had enough. This is my forum, so when I've had enough, I've had enough; life is too short.

Your comments and insults are unacceptable.

If you don't want to learn and grow ... that's fine with me. One thing I've learned is that you can't teach or help somone who doesn't want to learn or be taught. I've also learned that trying to reason with a fool is a complete waste of time and an impossible task. Good-bye Ryan.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 16, 2006, 04:05 PM
QuoteI'll go back to the rudimental forums

I swear I wrote my last post before reading that.

Quotemathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with.

I think he may have answered his own question.  Mathematically speaking, the IS no such thing as a triplet.  That's why it has to represented with a polymeter (i.e. a time signature with a time signature).  That's what we use to define rhythms that aren't easily (or possibly) definable in a given time signature.
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Dave Heim on February 16, 2006, 04:09 PM
Quote from: Ryan on February 16, 2006, 03:42 PM

. . . I'll go back to the rudimental forums and discuss the fact that, mathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with. . .

Thus rendering the original question moot.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 04:12 PM
Adam - interesting that you bring up Eggbeaters!  When I was marching corps, I was determined to figure out what exactly they were, metrically.

I came to the conclusion that they are not quite fivelets, and not quite a little triplet thing followed by 32nd note diddles (don't everyone go saying I don't understand what I'm talking about because I didn't use correct terminology ;D).  They're probably somewhere in between the two mathematical representations.  This is due to how our hands tend to naturally play them - I think, in fact, it would be easier to play the 2nd mathematical representation than the first.  I know this from playing an exercise where my friend would play a roll, and I would play eggbeaters over it.  I had to alter a "comfortable" interpretation to be able to play clean with the guy playing the roll.

No joke - I used to have a little section on my snare drumming website discussing eggbeaters because I was so fascinated by how drumlines could play them cleanly, yet we didn't totally understand what we were playing.  (I was in a 10-man snareline that has some dang clean eggbeaters on recording).

There are some wierd things in drum corps, but I can assure you I see weirder things with my "rock & roll" buddies, where guys exchange music theory like this: "Dude, it's this kind of chord" - (guitar player shows other guitar player the chord shape he's making), other guitar player says, "oh, why didn't you say so!".

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 16, 2006, 04:30 PM
One of my schoolmates in college was a guy named Naoki Ishikawa.  (http://www.utc.edu/Administration/UniversityRelations/newsreleases/homenews/asahi.html
Or Google it...if you're into drum corps and you don't know who this guy is...shame on you!   >:(  )

He wrote a couple of drumline shows for us at UTC and he used to do a weird egg-beaterish thing.  He would notate a sixteenth note diddle followed by a 16th note triplet and another 16th note diddle...it all fits (mathematically, or whatever) into on beat.   ll  rrr  ll

Not really an eggbeater, but inspired by them.  That's when I came up with my idea about eggbeaters.  Because Naoki is a machine...and machines are rarely wrong  ;D

--adam--

P.S.  A little off topic, but oh well...so is this whole thread...
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 05:07 PM
Quote from: AdamBlevins on February 16, 2006, 04:30 PM
One of my schoolmates in college was a guy named Naoki Ishikawa.  (http://www.utc.edu/Administration/UniversityRelations/newsreleases/homenews/asahi.html
Or Google it...if you're into drum corps and you don't know who this guy is...shame on you!   >:(  )

I had a couple encounters with him:

1) I watched him compete in snare individuals in 96 (happened to be the winning solo - awesome!)

2) I met him over the phone in 97 when he went to march the drumline I was marching in in 96 - he was super cool.

The guy was obviously good - marched two radically different top knotch drumline - Cavaliers and Blue Devils.  I don't know if I know of anyone else who's played snare at both of those corps.  Heck, I wonder if he was the first!
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 16, 2006, 06:19 PM
I just re-read Ryan's post.  I did not realize upon first reading that his comments were directed at Mr. A.

I thought it was typical crazy Ryan off-the-wall craziness.

Wow  ???
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Jon E on February 16, 2006, 06:48 PM
I know Ryan can be a little "out there" sometimes.  I've certainly had a couple of minor run-ins with him. Nothing too major.

What's odd to me in this case is that Ryan posed a (what I feel is a) genuine question about what something should be properly called musically.  There was some informative, and at times, rather spirited banter amongst several Cafe members, then all of the sudden Ryan reappears with guns blazing at Mr. A (with most of the rest of us close behind I feel).

I sure didn't think he'd react that way to this thread.  I know meanings can be lost or misunderstood sometimes in a TYPED medium like message boards, but WOW!!  I'm stymied.

Ryan, I can only hope you don't react to others this same way in the spoken world.  (yes, I know he's banned and can't read this).  Sorry if I ticked you off this time 'round.  It wasn't MY intention.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mark Schlipper on February 16, 2006, 08:40 PM
As a huge proponent of questioning the norm and reinventing the wheel I've found this whole thing interesting.   I've always thought the idea of a triplet was a little odd, wondered why the individual components didn't have their own denomination.   But this ...

Quote from: Mister Acrolite on February 15, 2006, 07:19 PMPlus, the 12th-note concept only works in 4/4. What if you're playing in 4/4, and suddenly the time signature changes to 3/4. By your logic, you'd then be playing "ninth notes." There's no need for that - they're simply 8th-note triplets, regardless of the time signature.

... sums it up for me really well.   And the mathematician in me says "duh".
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 16, 2006, 08:52 PM
This thread reinforces my opinion of the Drummer Cafe.  This is truly a place I want to be.  There is an unbelievable amount of experience, education, and down-home knowledge available for people who want to learn and share ideas.  

Sometimes I may get a little complacent.  A thread such as this makes me remember all the bad forums I frequented in the past.   I discovered the Café by accident.   I was surfing the net one day years ago checking out drum stuff.  Imagine that!  I came across the drum ring on one web page and that led me to the Drummer Cafe shortly after its conception.  This was the first and only truly professional drum forum I have found.  

I would like to commend Bart for his vision of the Café and thank him for his hard work in making this a wonderful experience for so many.  Bart has given many people a second chance and lots of time to allow them to break the bad habits many other forums allow and foster.  I also want to thank Mr. A for his sometimes thankless job as moderator.  I know Keith takes a lot of shots solely because he is a moderator.  I have admired his attitude many times for not retaliating at the insults.  I consider Bart and Keith true professionals and gentlemen and thank them both for having the patience of Job.  
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Roger Beverage on February 16, 2006, 09:20 PM
Thank you Bart.  It was the verbal diahrrea of the original poster of this thread that drove me out of the now defunct forum I used to frequent.  I hesitated PM'ing you regarding his past behavior as I know you have the patience of Job and needed to see this kind of thing happen before you could rightfully act.

I had a feeling of dread when he first signed onto this forum, I expressed my concern to another prominent member of this group, who stated he would keep an eye on him, which he did.

Everyone is entitled to redeem himself but this dude just keeps digging himself in deeper. He had his chances. Maybe someday he'll grow up, but I doubt it.

Roger
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Jon E on February 17, 2006, 05:58 AM
I'll give a dollar to anyone who can draw me a single 12th note!  :)

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Dave Heim on February 17, 2006, 07:05 AM
Quote from: Jon E on February 17, 2006, 05:58 AM
I'll give a dollar to anyone who can draw me a single 12th note!  :)


A single one?  Sorry.  No can do.  We're not allowed to break up a set.  :)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Larry Lawless on February 17, 2006, 07:22 AM
OK, so this thread has gone nowhere fast, sorry I missed it, I'm at a Music Educators convention in San Antonio (how come all the exciting stuff happens when I'm away), but wanted to throw out my thoughts.

The note value system is not based just in 4/4 time. The different note values get their names from their relative time to a whole note regardless of time signature.

Think of it this way:

Let's suppose, just suppose, completely arbitrarily, that a whole note lasts for 10 seconds.

A half note would then last for 5 seconds, or half as long,
a quarter note would last for 2.5 seconds, or one fourth as long,
an eighth note would last for 1.25 seconds, or one eighth as long,
and so on.

One of my favorite lines of questioning for my students goes like this:

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 4/4 time?"

ANSWER - 2

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 6/8 time?"

ANSWER - 2

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 28 million/463 thousandth time?"

ANSWER - 2

That said, once when I was much younger, I lay awake one night devising a system for a 3rd note. I had it all worked out, everything was perfectly logical, even came up with a "new" notation system. Then I fell asleep.

The next morning when I awoke (the morning blues hung over me..... sorry, I digress), I had forgotten everything. Now I realize there is already a perfectly good way to notate the value of a 3rd note that everybody can recognize without needing the Lawless Dictionary to MY System of Music Notation: half note triplets.
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: felix on February 17, 2006, 07:56 AM
That's too bad.  I might have been a little hard on him.  But there is a way to disagree with anyone here and not resort to name calling.  I know I've had to throw in the glove a few times myself.  Subsequently,  I for one couldn't even play an eggbeater and would very much like to see how they are notated.  I remember looking at them at once but didn't recall any 12th notes.

Youthful people love to try an be revolutionary and I think that's great.  Maybe Ryan will be inspired in his anger... and I hope he finds some peace eventually thru his future drumming endeavors.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: nudrum on February 17, 2006, 08:18 AM
I'm thinking about starting a 12th note program.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 17, 2006, 08:19 AM
Quote from: nudrum on February 17, 2006, 08:18 AM
I'm thinking about starting a 12th note program.


But first you have to admit that you have a problem!   ;D
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 08:25 AM
Quote from: L Lawless on February 17, 2006, 07:22 AM

The note value system is not based just in 4/4 time. The different note values get their names from their relative time to a whole note regardless of time signature.

Yes, they could be considered relative to the whole note, but the whole note is defined in 4/4 time.

I never really thought about it before this thread, but we very much live in a 4/4-time based society!  All other time signatures are forced to "conform to THE MAN" - the 4/4 bar!  All notation symbols are children of the 4/4 bar.  Although they may live in other time signatures, they're based on the 4/4 bar.  Trippy.

If we didn't do this, however, every time you came to a new bar of music, your brain would have to re-calibrate all note values relative to the time signature, and that would be nuts.

It's sort of like money.  We have nickels, dimes, quarters, dollars, etc.  Quarters don't mean, "one quarter of the price", they mean, "one quarter of the defined dollar".  Whether you're buying a house (could be considered a huge time signature), or a ball of gum (sort of like a very small time signature), a quarter is still a quarter.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Scott on February 17, 2006, 08:44 AM
JamesC, AdamBlevins or any other of you drum corp guys--do you happen to have any written notation for an eggbeater or would you happen to have a link to a site that perhaps has an eggbeater notated?  

A google search turned up several discussion related items, but not any actual notation.  

Interesting stuff....  
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Tony on February 17, 2006, 08:47 AM
I may be a bit off base here, but it seems to me the one thing missing in everyones dissection of the "12th note" is note value.  I find with drummers, we tend to lose sight of the value of a note, ie.  a whole not.  If there's no tie indicating a roll, we strike a drum on beat 1 and count 4 beats for the whole note.  Whereas a horn player will sustain the note for it's entire indicated value.  

With regards to eighth note triplets, it's hard to consider them anything else because of the value of each individual note.  But I prefer to just stick with what's worked for several hundred years.

As for Ryan, can't say I'm surprised.  He was building to that point for a while.  One day, I'm sure he'll mature and be a fine person.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 17, 2006, 09:04 AM
http://www.drumlines.org/upload/192685-128HybridRudimentBook.pdf

Contains egg-beaters as well as 127 other drum corps "hybrid" rudiments.  They are (IMO) completely useless for the most part outside of drum corps.

When was the last time you saw Steve Gadd play a ratamaswiss or Gregg Bissonette play a Shirley Murphy...?

--adam--
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 17, 2006, 09:06 AM
Quote from: Scott on February 17, 2006, 08:44 AM
JamesC, AdamBlevins or any other of you drum corp guys--do you happen to have any written notation for an eggbeater or would you happen to have a link to a site that perhaps has an eggbeater notated?  

I've got a notation that I can post ... if I can find it.
If and when I do find it, I'll post it ... unless someone beats me to it.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Jon E on February 17, 2006, 10:08 AM
So I am wrong when I count those eggbeaters to be in 7/16?

Maybe I should have asked this in a new thread?

Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: felix on February 17, 2006, 10:20 AM
I see them now from Adam's link.

Sextuplets and 32nd groupings.  I have a lick similar to that that's alot more rock 'n roll.  I should learn to play it the correct way.

Nah.

Edit:  I see what you are saying JonE.  The core guys probably "squeeze" the last measure and not change the pulse- but really, I'm guessing on that.  Cool though.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Dave Heim on February 17, 2006, 10:30 AM
Quote from: nudrum on February 17, 2006, 08:18 AM
I'm thinking about starting a 12th note program.


I signed up for one but it turned out that it only went to 11.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 11:34 AM
Quote from: Scott on February 17, 2006, 08:44 AM
JamesC, AdamBlevins or any other of you drum corp guys--do you happen to have any written notation for an eggbeater or would you happen to have a link to a site that perhaps has an eggbeater notated?  

A google search turned up several discussion related items, but not any actual notation.  

Interesting stuff....  

Scott, here you go.  Here's some eggbeaters for you - just an exercise I made up a while back - sort of an eggbeater "brain teaser" for myself.  The little red lines underneath some notes sort of indicate the eggbeaters (as well as some backwards ones).  The red lines are meaningless aside from saying, "hey, this is the eggbeater" to assist with recognizing them.

(http://members.aol.com/kevlar9296/notes/exercises-crazyeggs.gif)

Here's a direct link to the page in case re-sizing of the image in the forum makes it difficult to read.

http://members.aol.com/kevlar9296/notes/exercises-crazyeggs.gif



My rudimental drumming web page is sort of in a funk right now, as I'm experimenting with different web tools for my "real" work, and toying around with my drumming page as a guinnea pig.


Here's the main page:

http://hometown.aol.com/kevlar9296/

Warning: don't expect much except for the equivalent to rudimental drumming junk food!

I should add, the "traditional" (if that word applies to a hybrid) eggbeater is 3 strokes on one hand, followed by 2 strokes on the other hand:

i.e. RRRLL RRRLL, or LLLRR LLLRR, etc.

Often times the 3-stroke portion is accented (as in the exercise above).  Now the accenting is not super strict, playing a triple stroke using rebound, the notes naturally decrease in volume by the time you get to the third stroke.  Once again, the notation is a "guide", not necessarily reality.

Now, eggbeaters have been notated as quintuplets (the jury is out on whether this is a real word or not - maybe 16th note quintuplets?) - in any case, 5 evenly spaced notes.

Sometimes you cram these 5 notes into the space of 3 16th notes.  Sometimes into the space of 4.  (cramming them into the space of 3 16th notes sounds attractive - so they're often used that way).

The other way of notating them is how I have them above, where the note value of the triple stroke is different than that of the double stroke.

My personal belief is that in reality, your hands tend to naturally play them somewhere between these two written interpretations.

In the exercise above, the accent pattern of the first 2 bars is echoed by the eggbeater "lick" in the next two 24/8 bars, so it helps you "feel" them.

Enjoy...
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: felix on February 17, 2006, 12:05 PM
Man, that's great stuff.  Thanks.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 12:25 PM
Quote from: AdamBlevins on February 17, 2006, 09:04 AM
http://www.drumlines.org/upload/192685-128HybridRudimentBook.pdf

Contains egg-beaters as well as 127 other drum corps "hybrid" rudiments.  They are (IMO) completely useless for the most part outside of drum corps.

When was the last time you saw Steve Gadd play a ratamaswiss or Gregg Bissonette play a Shirley Murphy...?

--adam--

In general, I agree.  However, people on the internet seem to be going crazy about "blushda's" these days.  They are nothing more than left handed flam drags - just move your hands around the drums.  (In his DVD on the evolution of american drumming, Steve Smith incorrectly says they're based on swiss triplets).

Also, lots of David Garibaldi's grooves look complicated as heck.  Then when you break it down, you realize they're based on variations of swiss triplets, or some other rudiment.

So you never know....

To me, rudiments are like calculus or something - I did it in school in preparation for my career.  Do I use it much?  Frankly, not a lot.  But it's like a chop-builder.  Same with rudiments.  Some people like going off on calculus, even if they aren't directly applicable to work.  Some like going off on rudiments!

On my website I list some of the more "useful" (if that makes sense:P) hybrids.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Chris on February 17, 2006, 12:55 PM
Quote from: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 12:25 PM
In general, I agree.  However, people on the internet seem to be going crazy about "blushda's" these days.  They are nothing more than left handed flam drags - just move your hands around the drums.  (In his DVD on the evolution of american drumming, Steve Smith incorrectly says they're based on swiss triplets).



Gotta love the blushda!
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 17, 2006, 01:14 PM
QuoteHowever, people on the internet seem to be going crazy about "blushda's" these days.

I didn't mean to imply that none of them were relevant to drumset.  I have Gregg's "Musical Drumming in Different Styles" DVD in which he explains the "blushda"/flam drag lick.

I can sort of see what Steve Smith was getting at, as it could be played as a Swiss drag...but it seems kind of an awkward sticking for that lick.
BTW, if you wanna split hairs, it's actually a "same hand flam drag".  (Same hand, of course, indicating that it doesn't alternate sticking as flam drags normally do ;D  )
I also think heretas are quite useful (although more of a rhythm than a rudiment)...I've even been known to use inverts (a.k.a. inverted flam taps) in solos on occasion.

But patty fives, book reports and cheese dachuddas...that's just ludicrous.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Scott on February 17, 2006, 02:47 PM
Awesome stuff, guys.  JamesC -- thanks for the "Crazy Eggs" piece.  That's GREAT stuff!  What BPM have you worked that piece up to?

Anyway, based on Adam's previous post that brought up egg beaters and the egg beater notation in JamesC's piece, it does make sense how one might come up with the notion of a "12th note" but moreso as a phrase or description to help them understand the actual written notation---not as an actual note value itself.  I wonder if that's what Ryan was REALLY getting at....

Thanks again, guys.  I gotta go get crackin' (no pun intended, lol) on Crazy Eggs.   ;)    

felix -- egg beaters = cat's pajamas   8)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bob Pettit on February 17, 2006, 07:19 PM
Quote from: AdamBlevins on February 17, 2006, 09:04 AM
http://www.drumlines.org/upload/192685-128HybridRudimentBook.pdf

Contains egg-beaters as well as 127 other drum corps "hybrid" rudiments.  They are (IMO) completely useless for the most part outside of drum corps.

When was the last time you saw Steve Gadd play a ratamaswiss or Gregg Bissonette play a Shirley Murphy...?

--adam--

Drum corp training can get in the way of playing music. I know that there are many exceptions to this statement (Danny Carey for one says his corp experience really helped in the chops department) and many wonderful players have have played in drum corp, but what I'm trying to say is the regimented marching cadence that get pounded into the brain can hurt the ability to break free and just play ....

Have you ever heard someone with good chops take a solo in afro-cuban and play what sounds like a march? Pitiful.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 07:33 PM
Bongo, to me that's like saying studying shakespeare will screw up your ability to be creative and write your own plays.

Screwed up that Gadd guy too... :P

Really screwed up Billy Cobham also!

A couple examples that hit closer to home for me:  One of the guys who was a drum corps guy around my drum corps time has been playing with Marnard Ferguson.  Darn, that drum corps really screwed him up  :P

Another guy I did some snare drumming with when I was younger can now be seen on TV whenever you see Clay Aiken (sp?) singing.


Would playing classical percussion screw up your jazz playing?  Would playing timpani screw up your bongo playing?

Would playing piano make you a bad guitar player?

Show me a number of drum corps guys turned stiff drumset player, and I'll show you an equal number of non-drum corps guys who are stiff drumset players.

Different types of drumming means hitting different things with sticks or other implements in different ways.  Doing one doesn't mean you're screwed up and can't do others.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bob Pettit on February 17, 2006, 08:48 PM
Quote from: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 07:33 PM
Bongo, to me that's like saying studying shakespeare will screw up your ability to be creative and write your own plays.

Screwed up that Gadd guy too... :P

Really screwed up Billy Cobham also!

A couple examples that hit closer to home for me:  One of the guys who was a drum corps guy around my drum corps time has been playing with Marnard Ferguson.  Darn, that drum corps really screwed him up  :P

Another guy I did some snare drumming with when I was younger can now be seen on TV whenever you see Clay Aiken (sp?) singing.


Would playing classical percussion screw up your jazz playing?  Would playing timpani screw up your bongo playing?

Would playing piano make you a bad guitar player?

Show me a number of drum corps guys turned stiff drumset player, and I'll show you an equal number of non-drum corps guys who are stiff drumset players.

Different types of drumming means hitting different things with sticks or other implements in different ways.  Doing one doesn't mean you're screwed up and can't do others.

Yes of course you are right, there are many great players with corp experience, many of the best even, and certainly the best have rudimental backgrounds for sure. I liked your comment about stiff corp guys and stiff non-corp guys.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is not that drum corp work is bad for you, or that rudimental work is bad for you, but that it can be an obstacle that for some may take awhile to work out of and go beyond. You reach a point where you have burned technique into your neurons, then are faced with the task of making music with what you have learned.

I speak from personal experience. The first eight years I played I was not serious about about learning the rudiments.
I had a free style that I think was valid in it's own right and managed to get some professional gigs by the age of sixteen. But I always knew there was stuff I couldn't play, so I took lessons and worked very hard on my rudiments. It set my playing back for awhile, especially my solo work. It took time to break free .... which is ok, cause it was totally worth it in the long run.
:)
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 17, 2006, 10:10 PM
I hear what you're saying Bongo.

An interesting thing about corps style drumming is there are a lot of younger people involved in it.  Often times people teaching it (who are also often pretty young) take some of the philosophies to extremes, which could produce strange advice, etc.  I've heard weird things about how much to grip the stick, do this and that with your fingers, all kinds of stuff!

So, yes, if people are taught by people teaching some strange techniques, etc., it could sort of mess people up.  This would be like taking lessons from some rocker guy who has extreme philosophies about hitting hard, etc.

Incidentally, many of my favorite drumlines are the more "looser" looking drumlines.

I would't play a paradiddle between my ride and snare during a groove the same way I'd play paradiddles on a snare drum to play clean with a bunch of other snare drummers, that's for sure.

Sorry, I got a little opinionated there, I just get bummed when I see people being discouraged from rudimental drumming.

It sometimes gets that negative rap that the dreaded "piano lessons", and other such things in music get.

I personally played drumset as a kid before getting into the whole drum corps world.  I knew a lot of guys who did both.  I also knew a lot of guys who did drum corps stuff and classical stuff, and had no interest in drumset.  There is a huge mixture of people involved in it.  We're not all the robots a lot of people think we are  :)
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: oozarugoku on February 18, 2006, 12:15 AM
Is there any audio with how to play eggbeaters, or the crazy egg exercise?
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: David Crigger on February 18, 2006, 02:53 AM
Getting back to the "12th note" thing - I'm really quite the traditional notation guy; have little to no respect to those that want to make up their own special notation systems when the existing one works quite nicely, BUT.....

to those on the "there is no such thing as a 12th note" side -

first, let's keep in mind that notation terminology and practices have been an ever-evolving system for a few hundred years;

second, at least the 12th note thing makes sense - it is clearly just another term for eighth note triplets, and the logic of the name follows the same logic as 8th notes (8 per bar of 4/4), 1/4 notes, 16th notes, etc. And we certainly have many notational devices and terms that mean the same thing, and there are usually two or three different ways to notate the same music (with the choice usually effecting the desired performance in some subtle way - thus the "art" of notation)

and finally, most importantly - new notation terms and practices come to find acceptance through common, extended usage - and while "12th notes" may not be there yet, there has been some pretty common usage of the term over the past 15-20 years. And that is in many midi sequencing programs... Logic, for example, has always refered to 1/8th note triplets this way... and yet at the same time has always been a leading notation program.

So while I still have no patience for those that will write an asterix over a bar expecting me to know that is their "sort of" version of a coda sign - this "12th note" has been around for a while, makes sense as a synonym for 8th note triplet, and I would have a hard time poo-poo its usage or acting like I didn't know what someone was referring to.

my two cents,

David
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: AdamBlevins on February 18, 2006, 05:45 PM
QuoteLogic, for example, has always refered to 1/8th note triplets this way... and yet at the same time has always been a leading notation program.

I'm really not trying to split hairs here...but that isn't entirely true.  Logic is a leading sequencer...not a notation program.  The prime purpose of Logic is to record audio, sequence midi, add effects and sync midi to audio.  Notation was something they just kind of tacked on the end.

The leading notation programs (being Finale and Sibelius...whose prime function is notation) refer only to triplets and not 12th notes.
In fact, triplets in Finale are required to be entered an polymeters (as was discussed previously in this thread).  Not so sure about Sibelius, but I'm quite sure it's very similar.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: David Crigger on February 19, 2006, 11:07 AM
Quote from: AdamBlevins on February 18, 2006, 05:45 PM
I'm really not trying to split hairs here...but that isn't entirely true.  Logic is a leading sequencer...not a notation program.  The prime purpose of Logic is to record audio, sequence midi, add effects and sync midi to audio.  Notation was something they just kind of tacked on the end.

The leading notation programs (being Finale and Sibelius...whose prime function is notation) refer only to triplets and not 12th notes.
In fact, triplets in Finale are required to be entered an polymeters (as was discussed previously in this thread).  Not so sure about Sibelius, but I'm quite sure it's very similar.

Kinda gotta disagree on your history, Adam. As I (very roughly recall), didn't things start with Composer and Notator (which later developed into Logic), soon to be joined by Encore...then came Finale... MOTU threw in Mosiac... by this point Logic was well established as a notation program; at this point in the timeline, Logic probably ranked second among pro-users with Finale leading the way and Mosiac coming in third... then came Sibelius with Encore long gone and Mosiac barely (not) supported by MOTU.

Finally, though triplets may need to be entered as polyrhythms in the notation portion of Logic (not an illogically way of approaching them - since they are all 3:2, 6:4, 6:2, etc poly-rhythms if you choose to look at them that way (...back to what I wrote about the accepted idea that there can be more than one musical term or symbol allowed to describe the same thing). The fact is the sequence portion of Logic descibes 1/8th note triplets as 12th notes - again, as I contend, not necessarily the sign of musical "Hillbilly-ism" that it would have been considered 20 years ago.

Though I agree that today Finale and Sibelius ARE the leading notations programs, I don't agree that this "12th note" discussion is limited to merely notation concerns or that the practices of these two programs should be considered the defining standard - as I said common practice and usage will, over time, determine the acceptance of this term.

I just feel that no one can be accused of making this one up out of thin air, it has been around for awhile, and is gaining a foothold in musicians' vocabulary.


David
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: JamesC on February 19, 2006, 11:20 AM
Quote from: AdamBlevins on February 17, 2006, 01:14 PM

I can sort of see what Steve Smith was getting at, as it could be played as a Swiss drag...but it seems kind of an awkward sticking for that lick.
BTW, if you wanna split hairs, it's actually a "same hand flam drag".  (Same hand, of course, indicating that it doesn't alternate sticking as flam drags normally do ;D  )

You're absolutely right on the non-alternating flam drag thing.  That is a much better description.

Steve Smith could drum circles around me on drumset, any day, no doubt.  But on his video, he refers to a left hand flam as a right hand flam.  I don't think it's a mistake in what he says.  Rather, I think he's just not a "rudmental freak" like some of us  ;D  It would be a swiss with a drag thrown in if he played what he says he played (right flam, followed by a right hand diddle, followed by a left hand stroke).  - often referred to as swiss flam drags.  [Editors note: See SCV 1990 for my friend Mike French and some other dudes playing these insanely clean in a drum feature].

Rather, he starts with a left flam - causing these to be non-alternating flam drags as you said.

Sorry to be such a hair splitter on this one!  But when I was watching his video the first time, before I heard the "buzz" about the "blushda", I was watching the video, going, "what?".  His hands were not doing what he was saying.  Being a rudimental freak, it's like a guitar player hearing the wrong chords or something.  You just know something is wierd.  Thanks to good-ol slow motion DVD, I figured out what he was really playing.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 19, 2006, 12:05 PM
There are lots of good points in many of the post, BUT I can ask anyone who plays music to tell me what an 8th note is and they can tell me and then show me the symbol representing one.  If I ask then what a 12th note is 99% will look at me funny and I get enough funny looks without me making things worse!   ;D
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: David Crigger on February 20, 2006, 02:31 AM
Quote from: Louis on February 19, 2006, 12:05 PM
There are lots of good points in many of the post, BUT I can ask anyone who plays music to tell me what an 8th note is and they can tell me and then show me the symbol representing one.  If I ask then what a 12th note is 99% will look at me funny and I get enough funny looks without me making things worse!   ;D

Louis, I guess my thoughts go to the next step, where instead of being the one asking the question, we are the ones being asked. For example..

I would throughly expect that in a show - big band - orchestral situation that anyone asking me to play 1/8th note triplets would ask for "1/8th note triplets". And if I didn't know how to respond musically, I probably wouldn't be there long.

But consider doing a session for a composer or artist that has come - not from traditional notation back ground, but rather is pretty much a synth/sequencer guy. These type of guys are branching out into hiring more real drummers for their sessions all the time (...a very good thing!). What if he asks me to play constant 12th notes on the hat in the verse? Do I (knowing as many musical verbal synonyms as possible) say, "Sure" and play it for him. Or do I ask "What's a 12th note? I've never heard of such a thing. Are you sure you don't mean 1/8th note triplet?

I find it easier to pay the bills the more I can swing the former.

I guess my point is, it is always best to know all the possible answers, if possible. Then you can pick and choose the vocabulary that is most comfortable or effective for those you are working/playing with at the moment.

Anyway that's why I try to stay as open to this kind of stuff as possible. As much as I read, etc., I guess I've worked with way too many, actually quite talented, people who would be lucky if they could tell me what an 1/8th note; and certainly wouldn't know the notational symbol for one. :-)

David
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 20, 2006, 10:17 AM
Quote from: David Crigger on February 20, 2006, 02:31 AM
But consider doing a session for a composer or artist that has come - not from traditional notation back ground, but rather is pretty much a synth/sequencer guy. These type of guys are branching out into hiring more real drummers for their sessions all the time (...a very good thing!). What if he asks me to play constant 12th notes on the hat in the verse? Do I (knowing as many musical verbal synonyms as possible) say, "Sure" and play it for him. Or do I ask "What's a 12th note? I've never heard of such a thing. Are you sure you don't mean 1/8th note triplet?

I find it easier to pay the bills the more I can swing the former.

I understand ... and in a work environment I may do what you've suggested. But my immediate reaction would be "I'm sorry I don't understand what you are asking for; there's no such thing as 12-notes ... could you explain further?"

Allowing terminology to evolve is one thing, but allowing a term to be used completely wrong ... there is no such thing as a 12th-note ... is entirely different. To allow and/or acknowledge the 12th-note term only helps continue its existence. As an educator with an educational forum, I would be doing an extreme disservice to not shoot down such a erroneous term.

A composer/producer, if they know what the word "note" means, would simply not describe a eighth-note triplet in 4/4 time as a 12th-note. I don't believe that for a minute. And if they did, rather than come down to their level, I would take a moment to educate them so that we can both be on the same page ... so to speak.

Consider this ... what would you say if I told you my Chevy Tahoe, an SUV, was a 4-cylinder? Is it? No. It's an 8-cylinder ... but I call it a 4-cylinder because it has four wheels which are cylinders. Only a vehicle with 6 wheels could be a 6-cylinder ... and so on. What's going to happen when I need my SUV worked on? What's the mechanic going to say when I tell him it's a 4-cylinder SUV when itââ,¬â,,¢s really an 8-cylinder. What's the auto parts store going to say when I give them this information? I could go on and on with this scenario, but you get the point. People "in the know" would think I was crazy or an idiot. I would be demonstrating to them that I simply have no idea what I'm talking about. Do you think they would go on with my erroneous statements and just agree with me, or do you think someone would correct me? In either case, they would think that I didn't know what I was talking about, and/or that I know little to nothing about engines. In the automotive field, "cylinder" with a number in front of it means something specific.

The above scenario isn't even as ludicrous as the 12th-note(s) because there actually ARE 4-cylinder vehicles ... although Chevy doesn't make Tahoe's with 4-cylinders.

My point is that I took a term (cylinder) that has been established to refer to the vehicle's engine ... not the tires. Well, the term "note" when placed after a number, and used as a label or description, has already been established to reference to a particular notation. It's established! It's been established for a very long time ... long before there was ever a gasoline engine!

How do you write one 12th-note? If you point to note that has a solid black note-head with one flag on its stem ... do you call that a 12th-note? You'd be wrong; complete wrong. The only way you can even realize that a single note, such as an eighth-note, is part of an eighth-note triplet is that it would have to have a bracket over it along with the number 3. And under that bracket, if there was only one eighth-note, would be two eighth-rests ... or the equivalent of the same.

If you look at a piece of music, and you see 12 notes evenly spaced in the bar ... and itââ,¬â,,¢s in 4/4 or Common Time ... there has to be the number 3 appearing the groupings of notes to show you that its triplets that we are talking about. Compound Meters were created several hundred years ago to aid the composer from having to place the bracket and the number 3 above groupings of three notes. An example, in our case, would be 12/8 which is a Compound Meter.

I'm all for new terms that help to communicate; I don't have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is someone taking a firmly established terminology and try to create something new, like the 12th-note, which simply can not happen in music notation terminology. Just like you can't call an 8-cylinder SUV a 4-cylinder because it has four wheels, like wise I can't call eighth-note triplet 12th-notes simply because there's 12 notes in the 4/4 bar. Furthermore, if you play an eighth-note triplet it does not automatically mean that you fill up the entire measure. You can play any one part of the triplet if you wish, and there is a way to notate that.

So again I ask, what does a 12th-note look like? You would probably answer with "well, there's 12 notes evenly spaced in the 4/4 measure". Okay ... but what does it LOOK like? If you were to notate it for me, and simply wrote 12 eighth-notes in the 4/4 bar, that still would not be triplets. You must use the brackets and the number 3 over the groupings in order to show equally spaced notes ... or you would have to change the meter to 12/8. Any way that you try to fully explain or notate a so called "12th-note" you have to use established notation practices and definitions. If you have to do that the JUST USE WHAT'S ALREADY ESTABLISHED.

Music is a Language. If you are going to communicate with this language, beyond the verbal since that is what we are talking about ... the notation, you've to remain true to what's been established. Music is also Math, so you can't just take established terms and equations and do whatever you want. If music wasn't math, then sure, use whatever word you want to describe your ideas. When the word "bad" is used, if taken literally means poor, not good, etc. That same word, when used in slang, means great, awesome, and very good. You can't take these kinds of liberties when working in a language that is also math. If I could do that then it would be like saying that + (aka plus) and saying that it means to multiply, not add. That is unacceptable. Likewise I can't take the term 4-cylinder and use it to refer to the number of wheels. That term and/or logic is taken when talking about vehicles. The same is with music. Taking a number and the word "note" or "notes" and putting them together to communicate (using it as a label or term), like a 12th-note, is simply and completely impossible ... or should I say flat wrong.

So ... come up with another term ... but 12th-note is completely, 100% wrong when used to describe what to play or notate. Call it a "12 note grouping", call it "12 evenly spaced notes in the bar/measure", or come up with a completely new term. Heck, call it a boogaloo for all I care ... but to say "12th-note", "12th-notes" ... with or without the hyphen, is just wrong ... incorrect and illogical. Live long and prosper!!!  ;D
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Louis Russell on February 20, 2006, 02:55 PM
Excellent reply Bart.  I feel the same after over 40 years flying where the proper terminology is a life safety factor.  There are lots of slang words that can be used to convey a thought but when there lives on the line only the proper terminology is, well, proper.
Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Brett Sheaffer on February 21, 2006, 12:01 PM
Quote from: Bart on February 20, 2006, 10:17 AM
Consider this ... what would you say if I told you my Chevy Tahoe, an SUV, was a 4-cylinder? Is it? No. It's an 8-cylinder ... but I call it a 4-cylinder because it has four wheels which are cylinders. Only a vehicle with 6 wheels could be a 6-cylinder ... and so on. What's going to happen when I need my SUV worked on? What's the mechanic going to say when I tell him it's a 4-cylinder SUV when itââ,¬â,,¢s really an 8-cylinder. What's the auto parts store going to say when I give them this information? I could go on and on with this scenario, but you get the point.

Oh, I've ridden in Bart's Tahoe, and trust me, it's an 8-cylinder.  We got turned around in downtown Columbus MUCH faster than if it were a 4-cylinder!  ;)  ;D

On topic, though: What's frustrating about the "auto parts store" scenario is what happens when they are wrong and think they're right:

(Me) "Hi, I need an oil filter for my '79 Mazda Rx-7."

(Auto Parts clerk) "Okay..... That's the four-cylinder, right?"

(Me) "Ummm, no.  That's the rotary engine.  Two rotors; no pistons."

(Auto Parts clerk) "Our computer shows it's a 4-cylinder.  It has four spark plugs..."

(Me) "That's because each rotor uses two spark plugs, and... oh, nevermind; How about that oil filter?"

(How dare they accuse my rotary rocket of having... (gulp) pistons!  <sigh>)


That, I'm certain, will be the same frustrating feeling of many educators if the "musical powers-that-be" ever adopt the 12th note as a new "standard."
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mark Counts on February 26, 2006, 12:19 PM
Wow,
What a thread?  I am sorry I didn't read all of this earlier.  Ryan must have left this thread for awhile and come back and found out how beat up he was getting and got defensive.  I am sure he felt like he didn't really know what he was talking about after everyone was trying to help him understand.  Kind of like standing out in a crowd naked.  He was even called Stupid and eventually a fool.  I really think you guys were trying to help him out.  Sometimes it is hard to digest the fact that we are all wrong about something everyonce and awhile.
God Bless you all and have a great day!!
                                        Nutty
Title: Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 26, 2006, 03:52 PM
Quote from: drumnut1 on February 26, 2006, 12:19 PM
Wow,
What a thread?  I am sorry I didn't read all of this earlier.  Ryan must have left this thread for awhile and come back and found out how beat up he was getting and got defensive.  I am sure he felt like he didn't really know what he was talking about after everyone was trying to help him understand.  Kind of like standing out in a crowd naked.  He was even called Stupid and eventually a fool.  I really think you guys were trying to help him out.  Sometimes it is hard to digest the fact that we are all wrong about something everyonce and awhile.
God Bless you all and have a great day!!
                                        Nutty

Ryan was never called "stupid" in this thread, but thanks for the after-the-fact criticism.  

::)

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Roger Beverage on February 26, 2006, 04:43 PM
Some of us have dealt with Ryan for years.  Ryan is certainly not stupid, Ryan is just Ryan.

Roger

Title: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
Post by: Mark Counts on February 27, 2006, 04:01 PM
On the contrary Mr. A.,
"But I'd just say they were dbl'd sextuplets and not sound well, how can I put this mildly- stoopid?

It did not come from you or Bart but it was said.
I thought you two were being very informative and I didn't really find anything agressive towards him until he became unglued.  I understand now why you guy's do the things you do and I support it.  I am just happy to be here!
                     Nutty