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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: BigBillInBoston on August 17, 2006, 07:45 AM

Title: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 17, 2006, 07:45 AM
So...Chris Whittens beautiful Noble & Cooley single-headed tom set that he is currently touring with got me thinking. Is the drum industry like most other consumer oriented industries... trying to find ways to push "style change" on consumers for the sake of selling more product?

I'm sensing this in the industry "revival" of single-headed toms. If they can get the momentum going we'll all "need" (or think we will) a set of these. It would be hard to believe that the drum industry is not like others who sell to consumers. E.g. clothing..."Ok, let's all do short skirts this year...go from "earth tones" to "pastels"...etc.

Anyone else see an industry pushed trend trying to form here?

Please note...I'm not saying it's a bad thing or unusual. I'm just saying I don't think this is necessarily boiling up directly from the drum consumer.

Plus...they really do look cool... and sound different... and I do need some new drum stuff.............   ;)

BigBill
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: KEW on August 17, 2006, 10:58 AM
It seems to me most drummers follow what the most successful drummers do rather than what the marketing people at the drum companies advertise.  Four piece kits are still popular even though most big companies push five piece or larger.
My cynical side has been expecting triple/quadruple/quintuple braced hardware (like the five bladed razor).  :D
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: DRWM on August 17, 2006, 11:01 AM
I see what you're saying BigBill.  I've been wondering about the resurgence of the acrylic shells recently.  

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case here with the single headed toms.  Once OCDP comes out with a vented-acrylic-single-headed tom, that'll confirm your suspicions.  ;)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: KevinD on August 17, 2006, 11:16 AM
Yes, I would say so. As much as we would like to think otherwise, it is still an industry with a bottom line to make. So marketing plays a large part in what they get out to the public. I could see them leaning toward, if not starting trends. I remember when I was a in high school, everyone had to have the square (in dimension, not shape) sized power toms, they were big for a few years, then the "retro" sizes became the trend. The monster sized kit (ala Neil Peart, Jon Panozo and many more) with a set of melodic and double headed toms was big too for a while.

Same with the colors, remember those hot neon colors and wild designs from the 90s? Then it kind of came back to the more traditional colors and finishes.

If the melodic tom things catches on again in the pro circles (maybe Gregg Bissonette will have a set soon?) I'm sure it will filter down to the general drumming public and we can always say we were there when it was reintroduced by Chrisso.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: DRWM on August 17, 2006, 11:29 AM
That's true KevinD, we are at the cutting edge of the trend here.  ;)

Along the same lines, check out the feature on the new Yamaha Tour Custom,
http://www.drummercafe.com/content/view/92/9/

Yamaha says "Reintroducing 60-degree bearing edges gives these drums a truly unique sound."  Is Yamaha trying to bring back 60-degree edges on mid level kits?  Another conspiracy?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: James Walker on August 17, 2006, 11:34 AM
So...Chris Whittens beautiful Noble & Cooley single-headed tom set that he is currently touring with got me thinking. Is the drum industry like most other consumer oriented industries... trying to find ways to push "style change" on consumers for the sake of selling more product?

I'm sensing this in the industry "revival" of single-headed toms.

I must be missing something here.  What "industry 'revival?'"  If I'm not mistaken, Chris went to N&C and ordered a kit with concert toms, and they provided what he asked for.  If there are companies currently marketing drum sets with single-headed toms, I haven't seen them.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dave Heim on August 17, 2006, 11:38 AM
Unlike horn players and most other musicians, drummers (and guitar players) tend to be gear junkies.  There's always some hot innovation we just have to have!

So, yeah - if someone says "Hey guys, the full open sound is so last year!  You need to be playing single-headed toms again.", it'll be bad news for case manufacturers since we'll be nesting our toms in a single case!

As for acrylics, I was glad to see them come back.  Ludwig did well by the Vistalite line, but stopped making them when the high and rising price of petroleum in the 70's affected products like plexiglass and bit into the bottom line.  The way things are going, I can see it happening again.

   
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: dizz on August 17, 2006, 11:48 AM
I have to agree with you JW

Although I dont have a finger on the pulse of what is and is not hip in the industry, this post is the first I've heard of any kind of revival of single headed concert toms.

On the other hand,  todays sounds seem more double headed as far as I have experienced

PS Hey JW do you have any single headed snares?  ;D
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 11:55 AM
I must be missing something here.  What "industry 'revival?'"  If I'm not mistaken, Chris went to N&C and ordered a kit with concert toms, and they provided what he asked for.  If there are companies currently marketing drum sets with single-headed toms, I haven't seen them.

I think I saw Taye or someone on that order offering them.  Nothing widespread, certainly, and this was maybe a year ago I saw this.  If revival does happen, surely it will be propelled by the likes of Whitten (as well as those inspired by him here and any other forums he may frequent), and the manufacturers will try to get in.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: scottboundy on August 17, 2006, 11:57 AM
Removing the bottom head means less hardware and heads = less drum = less cost

so folks would expect bottomless drums to cost less (right?)

I don't think the drum industry want to go there :)

And JW is right. CW's drums are an isolated situation
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: chillman4130 on August 17, 2006, 12:00 PM
Yeah, would the head companies see their sales cut in half by this?

I for one will never play single headed toms, much in the same way I will never play "trendy" tom sizes unless I love the sound.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 17, 2006, 12:06 PM
I must be missing something here.  What "industry 'revival?'"  If I'm not mistaken, Chris went to N&C and ordered a kit with concert toms, and they provided what he asked for.  If there are companies currently marketing drum sets with single-headed toms, I haven't seen them.

Good point...my bad  :(. I re-read Chrisso thread about ordering his set. My incorrect assumption had been that (not with standing he would and should get what he wants) that possibly his choice was influenced by N&C. This does not appear to be the case.

Which leads us to the other version of this...influnetial drummer deecides to try something different, others see it/like it and want similar, manufacturers respond and, voila, we have a new trend.  :)

BigBill
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dave Heim on August 17, 2006, 12:07 PM
Removing the bottom head means less hardware and heads = less drum = less cost

so folks would expect bottomless drums to cost less (right?)

[quote from Airplane. . .]  No, that's just what they'll be expecting us to do!

Oh, I wouldn't count on that.  They'll need to re-tool the drilling machines and re-train the assembly folks and shoot new catalog photos.  That, of course, will bring the cost back.  Then, of course, there will be the issue of a finish ring - or not - on the bottom edge!  :)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 12:08 PM
I for one will never play single headed toms, much in the same way I will never play "trendy" tom sizes unless I love the sound.

I don't know if you mant to equate "trendy" with concert toms, but I will suggest that concert toms per se aren't so trendy in that they are mainstays in orchestral percussion, no?  We're not necessarily talking Hal Blaine on the Three's Company theme*. ;)  Plus, you never know if the sound will serve a purpose—if nothing else, you could go the common route taken in the seventies and remove a bottom head off a conventional tom.

*though I LOVE that sound he got
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: 0007 on August 17, 2006, 12:43 PM
Sure, drum makers have to pay attention to their bottom line, but I don't smell a conspiracy here, either.  From a marketing perspective, it wouldn't be in any company's best interest to contrive mass interest in something if genuine interest just isn't there.  Too big a risk for the reward.

N&C may have been "fishing" for interest w/ Chris Whittens' kit...maybe...but it's nothing more than that.  At least for now, though...this thread sure has garnered a lot of attention to the subject...

But the drum market is a miniscule, specialized segment compared to that of other goods, like clothing or shaving blades.  It's very hard to convince an informed audience to change their tastes en mass -- even through effective advertising -- and spend thousands of dollars on a new shell pack.  Only a group of the most influential artists will be able to sway massive public opinion that way, and honestly, in today's rock drumming scene, that's a doubtful prospect.

(if anything, the real "conspiracy" may have occurred 20 years ago when manufacturers all ceased production of concert toms -- so we drummers gotta buy more heads, cases, etc...win/win for everyone involved in the industry.)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: James Walker on August 17, 2006, 12:46 PM
They'll need to re-tool the drilling machines and re-train the assembly folks and shoot new catalog photos.

New photos, perhaps, but as Joe hinted, many companies are already producing concert toms marketed to schools and orchestral percussionists.  It would just be a matter of incorporating them into drum set configurations (which would require the new catalog photos).

 http://www.steveweissmusic.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/405_433]http://www.steveweissmusic.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/405_433

Hey JW do you have any single headed snares?  ;D

No, but they do exist.  Premier used to offer a snare strainer that pushed the wires up against the batter head (part of a two-headed drum, IIRC, but don't quote me on that), and some "cocktail" drum sets incorporate snare drums that use a simpler version of the design.  I've seen some DIY projects, where drummers have taken an old tone control, affixed snare wires (spread out in a fan shape), and with a few turns of the erstwhile tone control's knob, voila - snare sound.  I haven't tried it, but I may give it a whirl one of these days, when I have some money to burn on an experimental project.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: chillman4130 on August 17, 2006, 12:50 PM
I don't know if you mant to equate "trendy" with concert toms, but I will suggest that concert toms per se aren't so trendy in that they are mainstays in orchestral percussion, no?  We're not necessarily talking Hal Blaine on the Three's Company theme*. ;)  Plus, you never know if the sound will serve a purpose—if nothing else, you could go the common route taken in the seventies and remove a bottom head off a conventional tom.

*though I LOVE that sound he got

I meant trendy size-wise, like 25" deep kick drums or super shallow toms. I am a young drummer, but I still prefer standard jazz sizes on toms for almost every application.



Doesn't (one of my favorite pop artists of all time) Phil Collins still use concert toms in his setup?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 17, 2006, 01:38 PM
PS Hey JW do you have any single headed snares?  ;D

No, but they do exist.  Premier used to offer a snare strainer that pushed the wires up against the batter head (part of a two-headed drum, IIRC, but don't quote me on that), and some "cocktail" drum sets incorporate snare drums that use a simpler version of the design.  I've seen some DIY projects, where drummers have taken an old tone control, affixed snare wires (spread out in a fan shape), and with a few turns of the erstwhile tone control's knob, voila - snare sound.  I haven't tried it, but I may give it a whirl one of these days, when I have some money to burn on an experimental project.

I use a single-headed snare on my  http://www.keithcronin.com/drumkits/microkit.html]microkit !



Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 01:42 PM
Doesn't (one of my favorite pop artists of all time) Phil Collins still use concert toms in his setup?

AFAIK, yes.  I read that he does so for the added volume.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 17, 2006, 01:43 PM
I for one will never play single headed toms, much in the same way I will never play "trendy" tom sizes unless I love the sound.


I submit that you're too young to decide what you'll "never" do on drums.

Good thing Jerry Marotta didn't have an "I'll never play without cymbals" mentality - he'd have never made that groundbreaking Peter Gabriel album. When he showed up for the gig, Peter informed him he'd like him to play without cymbals. Jerry went along with it, and the rest is history

An open mind can be a beautiful thing.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dave Heim on August 17, 2006, 01:52 PM

An open mind can be a beautiful thing.


Always keep an open mind - someone may want to drop in a thought.

So, as I read this single-head tom thread I'm having flashbacks to when they - and the music they made - were popular the first time!  All hail Hal Blaine! 

If only I had kept those sets!  :)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 02:04 PM
Quote
All hail Hal Blaine!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOug30Eop8]YouTube presents Karen Carpenter with her drum solo as featured on one of the Carpenters's specials .

If you like, fast forward to 3:30 for the concert toms, which is my main reason for posting this---they even sound Blaine-y, which is to be expected. 
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dave Heim on August 17, 2006, 02:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXOug30Eop8]YouTube presents Karen Carpenter with her drum solo as featured on one of the Carpenters's specials .

If you like, fast forward to 3:30 for the concert toms, which is my main reason for posting this---they even sound Blaine-y, which is to be expected. 

Karen rocked.  What a loss.  The TV set for that bit looks like the cover of a 70's Ludwig catalog.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: chillman4130 on August 17, 2006, 02:29 PM

I submit that you're too young to decide what you'll "never" do on drums.

Good thing Jerry Marotta didn't have an "I'll never play without cymbals" mentality - he'd have never made that groundbreaking Peter Gabriel album. When he showed up for the gig, Peter informed him he'd like him to play without cymbals. Jerry went along with it, and the rest is history

An open mind can be a beautiful thing.

I humbly defer to your experience, Mr. A.   :-\

I can, however, unequivocally say that every time I have played a single-headed tom I have more than disliked the sound.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: 0007 on August 17, 2006, 03:03 PM
I can, however, unequivocally say that every time I have played a single-headed tom I have more than disliked the sound.

I have to agree -- my first kit as a teenager was single-head, and they sounded good, but kinda dead and simple compared to all the things a reso head can give you.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 17, 2006, 03:09 PM
I can, however, unequivocally say that every time I have played a single-headed tom I have more than disliked the sound.

And that is absolutely a fair judgment.

I just know I've been surprised by A) what I've been asked to do, and B) what has actually worked out really well, despite my concerns. Particularly in the studio.

For me it's largely a nostalgia thing, I'm sure. I grew up in the Hal Blaine era, and got into country music during a time when concert toms were pretty popular, plus I was both a Carl Palmer and Mark Craney fan - I freaking LOVE the sounds Craney got on Gino Vanelli's Brother to Brother.

Anyway, my big stack o' concert toms is scheduled to show up tomorrow, so if you hear the intro to Hawaii Five-O drifting through the Florida breeze, that'll be me!   ;D
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 03:31 PM
The TV set for that bit looks like the cover of a 70's Ludwig catalog.

I was actually thinking of editing my post to say just that, but it was a bit late—plus I figured you'd pick up on that anyway. :)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 17, 2006, 03:37 PM
I grew up in the Hal Blaine era, and got into country music during a time when concert toms were pretty popular....

Which I think were in large part played by Larrie Londin.  Louderdb mentioned to me in chat a while back that he saw an Ebay auction featuring a set of Londin's concert toms, and for not a bad price apparently.  They were fiberglass shells (Pearl?) and of gong drum-like construction, with the lugs shimmed up a half inch or so, with accordingly-sized rims and heads.  Certainly he must have been quite accurate with those broomhandle-like sticks I read he used....

EDIT:  I found his signature sticks available on page 31 in this PDF file of Pearl's 1978 catalog, though a bit smaller than the 19" sticks I read of on RMMP.  http://www.pearldrum.com/02_catarchive/1978.pdf  The catalog also features plenty of concert toms. :)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 17, 2006, 04:00 PM
http://www.pearldrum.com/02_catarchive/1978.pdf  The catalog also features plenty of concert toms. :)

WOW  :o... That catalog is concert tom city!!!!

BigBill
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: chillman4130 on August 17, 2006, 04:04 PM
I just know I've been surprised by A) what I've been asked to do, and B) what has actually worked out really well, despite my concerns. Particularly in the studio.

Ah, true. All bets are off once you get in the studio, I guess.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: David Crigger on August 18, 2006, 01:46 AM

Which leads us to the other version of this...influnetial drummer deecides to try something different, others see it/like it and want similar, manufacturers respond and, voila, we have a new trend.  :)

BigBill

Generally, I think the drum industry just tries to catch up with musician led "trends" as soon as they can - or as soon as they think there is demand for "the next new thing".

I've never gotten a sense of the industry leading the way. Enough guys start showing up in prominent places with jazz size toms...and they'll become available.

Players in the studio have been experimenting with woofers for years - now you can buy a shining new one.  Same with sub kick mics - now available in a neat, manufactured, stand-mountable factory version... as opposed to setting that NS-10 with the blown tweeter up next to the drum or duct taping an old car stereo speaker to a mic stand (same result - not really developed by a drum company, just packaged and and marketed)

Going back to concert toms in pop music - round one... Hal had a set custom made (Blaemire shells, etc), plays on a bazillion hit records, guys are pulling bottom heads, rims and lugs off of drums trying to cop the sound - so the companies finally caught up and the Octaplus etc were born.

About the only place the players haven't totally led the way with commercial trends is with heads - all these bazillion heads that with the occasional exceptions over the years - CS heads, hydraulics, pinstripes & PS-3 (BD heads with the built in doubled outer edge).  And yet, the lion's share of influential players - on record and in person - use clear and/or coated, single and/or double ply heads, period.  I'll bet those four head types plus the four exceptions mentioned earlier (plus calf) created the sounds on 90% of everyone's CD and album collections. But I digress... :-)

Naw - I'm sure the drum industry can only wish and dream of having that much of an effect on their market. They just don't have that much control - players will play what they want to play, and if the companies are making the right stuff, the player will find it used or build it themself.

David
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mark Counts on August 18, 2006, 12:34 PM
I humbly defer to your experience, Mr. A.   :-\

I can, however, unequivocally say that every time I have played a single-headed tom I have more than disliked the sound.

I own an old Kit of Green and Blue label Ludwigs and They really don't sound that bad. I played that kit for 25 years and they project sound great and they tune easy.http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4042/fh0000017hu.jpg.
I submit that they recorded very well too.  I would have no problem playing them infront of a very large critical audience.
                             Nutty
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Louis Russell on August 18, 2006, 12:45 PM
I would have no problem playing them infront of a very large critical audience.

And I did for many years and still use this kit a lot.  Not only do do the toms have one head but I only used one overhead mic.  This pic was early 80's.
ps That's my buddy stretch sitting on the bass drum! ;D

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.louisrussell.com%2Fdrums.jpg&hash=4759889ce4f8e8d086ca9673e7f9010b)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mark Counts on August 18, 2006, 12:53 PM
And I did for many years and still use this kit a lot.  Not only do do the toms have one head but I only used one overhead mic.  This pic was early 80's.
ps That's my buddy streatch sitting on the bass drum! ;D

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.louisrussell.com%2Fdrums.jpg&hash=4759889ce4f8e8d086ca9673e7f9010b)
I love this pic Louis. Stretch is very cool too. The single head drums did the job.
                                    Nutty
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Louis Russell on August 18, 2006, 01:01 PM
I love this pic Louis. Stretch is very cool too. The single head drums did the job.
                                    Nutty

Stretch was a cool dude, but useless.  All he would do was sit there and rubberneck the women.   ;D  BUT, when a good groove was going he would get that head a boppin and enjoy the view. 
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: KEW on August 18, 2006, 01:11 PM
I guess confession is good for the soul. Vintage 78.
http://www.geocities.com/tookstr/Pearl

I have a feeling single headed toms sound a lot better with Rims type mounts.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 18, 2006, 01:15 PM
First, Noble & Cooley is not known for being a marketing-driven company. They are almost the opposite of that. They make some of the highest quality drums for a very, very small market. Noble & Cooley is niche driven. They are also small, so people like Chris Whitten probably enjoy working directly with N&C because there's not 15 people between the customer and the corporation.

Second, like bell bottoms, concert toms will come around again. It's inevitable. I remember when I could never find even a mid-level kit with fusion-sized toms. The entry-level market drives product design, and nobody wanted fusion-sized toms when I first started. Everyone wanted two bass drums and rack toms with deep shells, just like the rockers of my day. If you wanted a 10x10 tom, you were probably looking at high-end Yammies or Gretsch, and those were way out of my price range. I'll never forget what the floor salesman said when I asked for short-stack toms: "Dude, that's not a tom, that's an octoban."

Now, of course, there are entry and low mid-level kits with optional fusion-sized toms. I was born about 20 years too early.

Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 18, 2006, 02:21 PM
And I did for many years and still use this kit a lot.  Not only do do the toms have one head but I only used one overhead mic.  This pic was early 80's.
ps That's my buddy stretch sitting on the bass drum! ;D

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.louisrussell.com%2Fdrums.jpg&hash=4759889ce4f8e8d086ca9673e7f9010b)

Louis, nice uniforms your band had... do you have the same ones today?

Were you playing John Denver's "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"  ???

Yours truly,

former Iowa farmboy,

BigBill
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dave Heim on August 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
Stretch was a cool dude, but useless.  All he would do was sit there and rubberneck the women. . .

What . . .  was he afraid to get out there and mingle?  Was he yella?  Was he chicken?  :)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 19, 2006, 03:11 AM
I guess I might as well chip in on this discussion.
Firstly, Mr A and myself are leading this concert tom revival.  ;D

N&C have nothing to do with my decision to use concert toms.
Fact is, over the past few years I've immersed myself in 70's recording sounds and techniques, partly through an interest in the sampled loops on dance records and my own virtual drum sampler projects.
The World Party's music is heavily influenced by 70's music such as late Beatles, Dylan and Neil Young. So I thought the thuddy sound of single headed toms might work well.
Actually, I'm enjoying the instant response these drums give me.
OK, as to the conspiracy theory........
I was watching Ebay for several months for cool vintage kits to take on this tour.
At one point I found a nice set of Sonor concert toms. Unfortunately I was sniped.  :(
To cut a long story short, it dawned on me I should just buy a new kit.
Who would supply a kit including concert toms? Probably no one.
I used to endorse N&C of course.
I gingerly contacted them. Being the nice people they are, they graciously agreed to take on the job.
It probably would have been easier for them and preferrable to produce a standard CD Maples.
So no, it isn't a move by the companies, just a move by two 40+ drummer guys (Mr A and myself).
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: sleepybrIghteyez on August 19, 2006, 08:28 AM
I love the die hards sticking up for the one sided tom theory. I love the drum sounds of the 70s. Definately one of my favorite sounds. I've had one sided toms for ten years. When I bought this kit (10 yrs ago used), it didn't come with bottom heads or the hardware to use them. I would like to try reso heads on the kit, however I don't currently have the money to buy the hardware and extra heads I need (family stuff always comes first). So I'm working with what I have, and I have my toms tuned to a sound I like. I've submitted myself to expirmentation and threw a home made muffle ring on my 5.5x14 metal snare to get that perfect pssht sound (real tight and poppy). The only odd thing would be my preference to leave my kick unmuffled. I think the open kick goes great with the one sided toms (only batter on kick as well). When I stuff my kick I like to throw more home made rings on my toms to get the super thud, but then the volume on the toms drop significantly which I haven't compromised for yet. I definately associate the one sided tom sound with drum breaks- something I hear bouncing around my head all day.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Louis Russell on August 19, 2006, 03:49 PM
Louis, nice uniforms your band had... do you have the same ones today?

Not the same ones, I buy new every couple of years.  I was playing with a country band at the time and one night it was overalls and the next night cochroach stompers and levis--with a hat of course.  Did you notice the work boot on the high hat?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: stickers on August 20, 2006, 12:54 AM
Is there anyone else here who cringed just by reading the words "Single Headed Toms" in the subject line on this thread?

I know I did.   
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: felix on August 20, 2006, 05:51 AM
Love that pic Louis.  I can't wait to finally meet you at Pasic.

Single headed toms sound phenomenal.  They just need proper miking and mixing.  I wouldn't be surprised if they come back.

I do not prefer dbl heads over single or vice versa.  Just two totally different animals!  I play double heads but have a single headed concert tom on my vistalite kit- it cuts thru everything.

I like single ply silver or black dots on concert toms.  They are ringy and edgy sounding as well as being very loud.  8)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: MikeE on August 20, 2006, 06:34 PM
I knew if I kept these long enough, they'd come back into style!
(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv280%2Fsunliner%2FIMG_3292.jpg&hash=ea8778585bed5ead12f7acb48c1e8371)
(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv280%2Fsunliner%2FIMG_3290.jpg&hash=fbc52d72cd1e1ac250d1e3fc92feec3e)

They're fun to goof around on, but since about 1985, I much prefer my double-headed drums.  One never knows though...I've got the 6,8,15 &16 stashed away somewhere. Just in case I have to carry the melody on a song...
-Mike
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: stickers on August 21, 2006, 01:18 AM
this may turn into a "what were they thinking" thread.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 02:46 AM
You know, it's just a case of different strokes.
I would never only play single headed toms, but I also don't 'cringe' at the thought of them.
There are some great drum tracks recorded on single headed toms, not to mention heavily damped drums.
Open your mind to some different possibilities.  ;)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: felix on August 21, 2006, 06:06 AM
this may turn into a "what were they thinking" thread.

Yeah dude... you don't have the complete picture.  Get or download some tracks off of Black Sabbath's "Live Evil" cd.  Vinnie's drums sound so killer it's unbelievable.  The drums solo is phenomenal on that record as well.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 21, 2006, 06:07 AM
this may turn into a "what were they thinking" thread.

You're probably right. Why don't you write to us from your tourbus on your next national tour, and share your insights regarding toms?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 11:35 AM
Got your Tama's yet Keith?
 8)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 21, 2006, 11:39 AM
Got your Tama's yet Keith?
 8)

Yup - they showed up Friday! They look great with the rest of my kit. The heads they came with are pretty dead, so I need to do some experimenting, but I'm digging them!
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 11:55 AM
The heads they came with are pretty dead

Sounds perfect!

Just kidding.  ;D

I guess you'll go Aquarian. What were you thinking of trying?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: KevinD on August 21, 2006, 12:07 PM
Well all this talk of melodic toms has brought back some memories. A few years ago at my folk's house I found my old 8" & 10" concert toms made by Pearl. The finish was a beautiful Rosewood. I got them from Veneman Music (if anyone remembers them) with the clip on stand and black dot heads. My idea was to "build" my drum kit by buying a piece or two at a time which I could afford until it was complete (well I was only 13 and apparently had no instinct to add those costs over time with a calculator, because it would have been a lot more expensive that way.) I only got to the 10" tom. The next year I ended up getting a full set but in a different color.

I only used the melodic toms sporadically for about 6 or 8 months, never had any gigs with them so they are in great shape. Next time I'm up there I'll set them up.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 21, 2006, 12:58 PM
Sounds perfect!

Just kidding.  ;D

I guess you'll go Aquarian. What were you thinking of trying?

They came with Clear Focus X heads, which have an internal dampening ring. I find them too dead, so I may just try 1-ply coated heads, depending on what I've got sitting around the house. Clear 1-ply heads are another option, and I may try Classic Clear with Power Dot.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 21, 2006, 01:05 PM
They came with Clear Focus X heads, which have an internal dampening ring. I find them too dead, so I may just try 1-ply coated heads, depending on what I've got sitting around the house. Clear 1-ply heads are another option, and I may try Classic Clear with Power Dot.

Get some bathtub appliques with the one-ply heads, and do some Three's Company licks. :)

BTW, I love the dampening job MikeE.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 03:40 PM
BTW, I love the dampening job MikeE.

Yeah.
I was going to say, that's the all time classic set-up. CS Dot heads with strips of gaffa and toilet roll.

Mr A,
I think clear heads would sound great. I went for coated to try and coax a bit more warmth out of the toms. I also chose 2 ply to emulate the fat 70's sound.
I wonder if you'll be able (or should I say allowed) to record with your Tama toms sometime. I'd love to hear the result.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 21, 2006, 04:02 PM
I guess I might as well chip in on this discussion.
Firstly, Mr A and myself are leading this concert tom revival.  ;D

N&C have nothing to do with my decision to use concert toms.


Ok...so my "industry conspiracy" theory was wrong... :'(

Sure did turn out to be an active thread though  8).

The above not withstanding...I'll stand by my view that drum companies (as well as every other company that makes product for consumers) are always happy to embrace any trend that they perceive will allow them to profitably sell more product.

BigBill
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 04:10 PM
I'll stand by my view that drum companies are always happy to embrace any trend that they perceive will allow them to profitably sell more product.
Ahh well. Why worry about drum companies selling more drums?
Also, why complain if you are offered more choice, like double headed and single headed toms?

Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: jb78 on August 21, 2006, 04:17 PM
Here's a question for you Chris and others:  Does a drum need to be made a certain way to be properly called a single-headed or concert tom?  I recorded much of our album with the bottom heads off of one or both of my toms -- did I cheat or is that the real thing?
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mister Acrolite on August 21, 2006, 04:28 PM
Here's a question for you Chris and others:  Does a drum need to be made a certain way to be properly called a single-headed or concert tom?  I recorded much of our album with the bottom heads off of one or both of my toms -- did I cheat or is that the real thing?

It's the real thing.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 04:35 PM
Just when you thought it was safe:
http://cgi.ebay.com/80s-Gretsch-Custom-6-pc-Maple-drum-set-w-concert-toms_W0QQitemZ300018756825QQihZ020QQcategoryZ64439QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Dead Trooper on August 21, 2006, 04:37 PM
The above not withstanding...I'll stand by my view that drum companies (as well as every other company that makes product for consumers) are always happy to embrace any trend that they perceive will allow them to profitably sell more product.

BigBill

Bill, isn't that what most businesses everywhere are out to do?

Felix, I dig your old school rock references.

Me, I'm not much for single headed drums on my own projects. I'd love to get some big Rotos and make a set with them. Sweet.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Mark Counts on August 21, 2006, 04:44 PM
It's the real thing.
In the 70's, I purposly took my Reso heads off including the bass head.
I think it is the real thing also.
                           Nutty
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: MikeE on August 21, 2006, 05:03 PM
Yeah.
I was going to say, that's the all time classic set-up. CS Dot heads with strips of gaffa and toilet roll.

Can ya tell I started playing in the 80's? ;D    Let's not leave out the Simmons pads!
My main kit nowadays looks & sounds more respectable (or at least more modern).  I like to keep that Imperialstar kit set up in the den just to scare the children.
-Mike
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: drumrjohnr on August 21, 2006, 06:14 PM
So...Chris Whittens beautiful Noble & Cooley single-headed tom set that he is currently touring with got me thinking. Is the drum industry like most other consumer oriented industries... trying to find ways to push "style change" on consumers for the sake of selling more product?

I'm sensing this in the industry "revival" of single-headed toms. If they can get the momentum going we'll all "need" (or think we will) a set of these. It would be hard to believe that the drum industry is not like others who sell to consumers. E.g. clothing..."Ok, let's all do short skirts this year...go from "earth tones" to "pastels"...etc.

Anyone else see an industry pushed trend trying to form here?

Please note...I'm not saying it's a bad thing or unusual. I'm just saying I don't think this is necessarily boiling up directly from the drum consumer.

Plus...they really do look cool... and sound different... and I do need some new drum stuff.............   ;)

BigBill


I am agnostic about giving specific drum voicing advice but this should be easy enough to experiment with by just removing your resonant head.

There will be signifcant sonic differences some subtle and some less so. Obviously less fundamental power and sustain.

One subtle difference is a different overtone series will be dominant. Instead of a first overtone at roughly 1.7x the fundamental, the series starting at 2.1x will sound (almost an octave). Another subtle effect is that for the same head weight and tension the drum will resonate at a lower fundamental note than if two heads were mounted.

This might be interesting to play around with for recording and will give a "different" sound. I wouldn't expect it to be universally embraced as better or drums wouldn't have two heads on them now.  :)

John Roberts
Circular Science 
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 06:23 PM
I wouldn't expect it to be universally embraced as better or drums wouldn't have two heads on them now.  :)
 

I know what you are saying, but 'better' is a subjective term.
I'm not touring with an inferior tom sound, more a different tom sound.
Double headed toms are currently in vogue. I love their sound also and like you said, removing the bottom head produces a different sound, not a worse sound persay.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on August 21, 2006, 06:30 PM
I know what you are saying, but 'better' is a subjective term.
I'm not touring with an inferior tom sound, more a different tom sound.
Double headed toms are currently in vogue. I love their sound also and like you said, removing the bottom head produces a different sound, not a worse sound persay.

Someone needs to get Chris some heavy armor. ;) I've never seen more blindsided attacks on something so subjective, particularly when the person making the choice is collecting a paycheck (hopefully a handsome one).
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 21, 2006, 08:10 PM
"Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?"  ;)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: drumrjohnr on August 21, 2006, 09:35 PM
I know what you are saying, but 'better' is a subjective term.
I'm not touring with an inferior tom sound, more a different tom sound.
Double headed toms are currently in vogue. I love their sound also and like you said, removing the bottom head produces a different sound, not a worse sound persay.
Sorry about my choice of words... I was just making an observation about the apparent popularity of two head drums for general drum kit use. My intent was to share what some of the differences in resonance modes would be and not to make a judgement one way or the other. As i stated I'm agnostic about kit voicing

Perhaps the real conspiracy is to sell twice as many drum heads?  :o


John Roberts

Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Joe on August 21, 2006, 09:46 PM
I think the real question is:  Will previously-decried and neglected (not to mention cheap) concert toms c. 1977 come to experience a fate recently befallen the Ludwig Acrolite, thanks to the favorable publicity now and to come?

The time to buy is now. (½ ;) )
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: David Crigger on August 22, 2006, 03:13 AM
... so I may just try 1-ply coated heads, depending on what I've got sitting around the house. Clear 1-ply heads are another option, and I may try Classic Clear with Power Dot.

Love to know what you finally settle on. The Classic Clear with Power Dot seems quite intriguing.

You guys are getting me all inspired here. I've been needing to refurbish my second set of Blaemire's and am toying with returning them to their single-headed roots. Which they sounded really really great as.

David
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: felix on August 22, 2006, 07:38 AM
I don't think resotune meant any harm.  I've met him and he is very open minded about drum tuning.  He has an opinion and I agree for the most part... dbl head toms and all the new head choices give a drummer "acoustic processing control" as opposed to an engineer (that's how I see it). 

My opinion is I think concert toms really shine with close miking and a healthy dose of reverb/fx.  I think they process easier and more effectively than dbl headed toms.  Much easier to control overtones *a big duhhhh- uh huh there* ;D

Whatever, not a big deal- they are just concert toms.

Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: David Crigger on August 22, 2006, 12:51 PM
Just when you thought it was safe:
http://cgi.ebay.com/80s-Gretsch-Custom-6-pc-Maple-drum-set-w-concert-toms_W0QQitemZ300018756825QQihZ020QQcategoryZ64439QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If those were 8 - 10 - 12 - 14 - 16 instead 1213141516, I would be seriously considering them.

dc
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: BigBillInBoston on August 22, 2006, 03:12 PM
Bill, isn't that what most businesses everywhere are out to do?


My point exactly...nothing wrong with moving product and making money. It's the kind of thing that allow you to re-invest your profits in retooling your production line to make (wait for it)... SINGLE_HEADED TOMS  ;D 8) ;D
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Christopher on August 22, 2006, 03:31 PM
Ahh... 'everything old is new again'

That's the old saying, isn't it?

Something not yet mentioned (that happens to be my favorite thing about concert toms) is how FAST they are.

No "recoil" from the bottom head.

You can rip on 'em concert toms.  ;D

But (overall) for sound, I'm a two head dude.  8)

(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F216.71.202.22%2FMerchant2%2Fgraphics%2F00000001%2FTwo_Headed_Man_IC_small.jpg&hash=a32b99e020148ae3304afc10e8d90075)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 22, 2006, 07:46 PM
If those were 8 - 10 - 12 - 14 - 16 instead 1213141516, I would be seriously considering them.

Yeah man. 100%  :)
Those are the sizes I chose for my Noble & Cooley.
Refurb your Blaemire's and jump on our band wagon!  :D ;) 8) ;)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 22, 2006, 07:48 PM
Sorry about my choice of words...

No apology needed. That's why I started my retort by saying I knew what you meant.  ;)
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 22, 2006, 07:51 PM
Ahh... 'everything old is new again'

That's the old saying, isn't it?

Yeah.  :)
Our keyboard player Amanda just saw Devo - with Josh Freese on drums.
She said it was an awesome show, especially because of the fabulous drumming.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: drumz1 on August 26, 2006, 01:26 PM
Naw - I'm sure the drum industry can only wish and dream of having that much of an effect on their market. They just don't have that much control - players will play what they want to play, and if the companies are making the right stuff, the player will find it used or build it themself.



Perfectly said, David.  I agree with every word.
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: drumrjohnr on August 30, 2006, 01:33 PM
No apology needed. That's why I started my retort by saying I knew what you meant.  ;)
Great.

I have given this some more thought and can be a little more specific about the differences between one head and two head drums.

In two-headed drums there will be 3 important resonances that impact the drum's voice or sound. The batter head has a specifc lug overtone note associated with it's weight and lug tension. This is the note you hear if tapping the drumhead near the lug while lightly damping vibration at mid drumhead. The bottom or resonant head will have it's own lug overtone note as defined by it's weight and tension. Finally there is a fundamental (lower) whole drum resonance which is defined by the weight and average tension of both heads combined. The batter and resonant lug overtones can be tuned independently to the same note or different ones. The ratio between fundamental and these lug overtones will vary over a range due to different head weights and tensioning.

In a single head drum. The lug overtone will pretty much always occur at the nominal ratio of 2.1x the fundamental. Adjusting the lug tension up or down raises or lowers both but always in the same ratio.

The >2x ratio of a concert tom is difficult if even possible to attain with two heads mounted so the concert tom is not just a less complex sound but it offers a wider ratio beteen fundamental and overtone than is possible with two heads mounted.. This is a simplification as there are other elements that also contribute to what makes up a drum's voice but these are some of the key differences.

John Roberts
Circular Science
Title: Re: The "Revival" of Single-Headed Toms- Drum Industry "Conspiracy"?
Post by: Chris Whitten on August 30, 2006, 01:50 PM
If you say so.
I just hit 'em.  ;D