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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: Doug Tann on January 02, 2009, 11:47 PM

Title: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 02, 2009, 11:47 PM
Hello all....

Bart has been kind enough to invite me over and so far I like what I'm seeing and reading.

Anybody up for some substantive Vinnie talk?

Look forward to hearing from anybody interested.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on January 03, 2009, 07:51 AM
I'm all for it! For those that may not know, we are talking about Colaiuta, who has earned the right to be known just by his first name.  8)  Typically, when a drummer just says "Vinnie" ... he means Colaiuta ... not Appice or Barbarino.

Anybody up for some substantive Vinnie talk?

You're not going to start drinking a bunch of caffeine to achieve this now are you?  ;D

Yeah Doug, start us off. I know we have a number of people, including myself,  who would enjoy learning more about Vinnie's playing approach, style, sound, etc.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chip Donaho on January 03, 2009, 08:48 AM
You're not going to start drinking a bunch of caffeine to achieve this now are you?  ;D
Come on over. The coffee is always on here.  :D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on January 03, 2009, 10:56 AM
Vinnie would be cool if he'd only put some work into getting his technique together.


 ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 03, 2009, 12:00 PM
Lovely then,

Let's start at the beginning...

I have spent a lot of time on the  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001O3MSJ8?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001O3MSJ8]Nightwalker  (Gino Vannelli) and the Pages albums.  In both cases Vinnie was brand new to the L.A. scene and these are amongst the earliest documentations of his studio career in it's most fledgling state.

The Pages album in Particular is interesting as Vinnie was subbing for Jeff Porcaro on the session and actually, at producer Jay Graydon's insistence, used Porcaro's drums.

Both of these sessions are from 1980-81.

The Vannelli album is exquisite in it's production and the Gadd influence is apparent especially in the sextuplet hi-hat snare sticking on Nightwalker.

According to Vinnie himself..here is his ENTIRE pre-1981 recorded output.

1981   Pages    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005M6IA?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00005M6IA]Pages
1981   Perry, Richard    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FY5F14?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001FY5F14]Swing
1981   Okoshi, Tiger    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000007UBR?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000007UBR]Tiger's Baku
1980   Aaberg, Philip    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000000NHO?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000000NHO]Upright
1980   Vannelli, Gino    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CBCAJ?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000CBCAJ]Nightwalker
1979   Ritenour, Lee    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000001RI?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000001RI]Collection
1979   Zappa, Frank    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000009SY?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000009SY]Joe's Garage
1977   Christopher Morris Band    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UWVECQ?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000UWVECQ]Christopher Morris Band

The Christopher Morris Band was a Berklee thing.

Anyway...here's a start.  I'll find my transcriptions of the Nightwalker Album and post them, with Bart's o.k.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Jon E on January 03, 2009, 12:12 PM
I had no idea he had done so much drumming!  ;)
(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.librarising.com%2Fastrology%2Fcelebs%2Fimages2%2FJ%2Fjohntravolta1.jpg&hash=1a02d8d5e97c010e1e7f0b2d76f1c67e)
Up your nose with a rubber hose!!

What?....  Oh, a different Vinnie?  (nevermind)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Steve "Smitty" Smith on January 03, 2009, 01:08 PM
Well, I don’t know how substantive this is, but my best memory of Vinnie was the time I saw him at a small club in L.A. nearly 20 years ago (I believe he was playing with John Patitucci, but I’m not positive).  There was a table of huge African-American guys up front – all in sweat suits and appearing to be members of a basketball team.  They were obviously familiar with Vinnie, and throughout the set they repeatedly called out, “Let Vinnie go.” Well after several tunes, the bandleader humorously relented and “let Vinnie go.” Vinnie played a solo that just lit up the place.  That was the first time I’d seen those kind of chops up close.  I spent the rest of the gig watching Vinnie from the side of the band area – about five feet from his hi-hat.  Unreal.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 03, 2009, 02:35 PM
I've seen Vinnie up close several times, but the best experience was unique.  I managed the Drum Shoppe in Toronto in the late 80's and we had Vinnie and Alex Acuna come up for a Yamaha day.  I had a great chance to hang with Vinnie for 3 days and play with him.  I think there's a shot of the clinic up on my  http://www.drummercafe.com/featured-musician/drummer-percussionist/doug-tann.html]drummer page .

I picked Vinnie up from the airport and he didn't stop playing on my dashboard until I got him to the hotel...and it was a red-eye from L.A.

The clinic was amazing, as can be expected....Happy to provide details if there is any interest.

Thanks for the reply's...I could go on for days

Cheers


Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on January 03, 2009, 02:45 PM
I picked Vinnie up from the airport and he didn't stop playing on my dashboard until I got him to the hotel...and it was a red-eye from L.A.

Hence my comment about the caffeine earlier.  ;D

I was fortunate to play with Vinnie back in 2004 and got to hang with him, one-on-one, in the green room. He was extremely relaxed and at peace that night; no tapping on items or evidence of approaching spontaneous combustion ... as per the norm in the past.  ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on January 03, 2009, 04:49 PM
Awesome, keep it comming. I can't contribute much here but I'm listening with big ears.  Vinnie is truely one of those phenomena...
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on January 03, 2009, 05:35 PM
Love all those Vinnie anecdotes, especially the one Steve Vai made on him, watching him play Mo 'n Herbs vacation.

I saw Vinnie only ones. It was in 1996 when he was on tour with Sting. It amazed me how much he was smoking during the concert. I've read somewhere that not so long ago he quit smoking.


Most of you probably no this one. John Smuthers on VC, long ago. But you know what they say about the fox ......

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPuMnhRn4QQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPuMnhRn4QQ

..... that d**n drummer with that weird hair on his face

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 03, 2009, 05:37 PM
I got to first see Vinnie @ PASIC 98 in Orlando. It was my 2nd year of college and my first PASIC experience (what a way to be introduced to PASIC, eh?) Anyway, the night before his clinic, I was hangin' in the hotel lounge for the after-hours hang, when I spot Vinnie hangin' with Steve Smith of all people! I was freakin', man.  As the night went on, I finally got up the nerve to say hello to the man himself.  I must say that the dude was one of the nicest cats in the world, takin' the time to chat & pose for a quick photo. And as Doug pointed out earlier, the man can't stop tappin'! It was amsuing to see Vinnie pull a stick out of his coat pocket, play some triplets, and casually put the stick back during our encounter.
 The next day at the clinic, he showed us all how its done.  Its hard to describe a Vinnie clinic...the word NUTS comes to mind.  It was awesome!  Halfway through the clinic, Vinnie remembers to call a friend of his & wish her a happy birthday, with the audience participation of course.  Totally random, but classic Vinnie humor!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 03, 2009, 08:18 PM
I got to first see Vinnie @ PASIC 98 in Orlando. It was my 2nd year of college and my first PASIC experience (what a way to be introduced to PASIC, eh?) Anyway, the night before his clinic, I was hangin' in the hotel lounge for the after-hours hang, when I spot Vinnie hangin' with Steve Smith of all people!

Do you remember, if you stayed long enough, the hang in the lobby.  Steve Smith was there with Vinnie, but Vinnie and I were sitting on the couch doing the one handed roll thing.  He was playing right and I was playing left and Steve Smith was hanging in the back...that's one of my best memories...and I know there are pictures of it out there. Joel Rosenblatt was there as well as Terry Bozzio and El Negro...quite a night!!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 03, 2009, 09:25 PM
...I do remember at one point Steve was sitting in Vinnie's lap! Hilarious! I was on the couch adjacent to Vinnie's for awhile, so I'm sure you were there as well..wild!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 04, 2009, 06:08 PM
Wow, those are priceless interactions!  I've never seen Vinnie live, just on video. 

Doug, thanks for the pre 81 recording list.  I imgaine a lot of that stuff would be hard to find.  Keep the lists coming.  I'd also be interested in hearing what folks consider to be his most innovative recorded performances. 

The funniest Vinnie thing I saw was a clip of him and Zappa and they were just goofing around.  V played a bunch of cool licks and then he started making seal or walrus sounds.  Totally hilarious. Of course, with Zappa, that might have actually been a real song. 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 04, 2009, 06:27 PM
Essential Vinnie (in my humble opinion and not in order of importance...also..taking for granted Sting & Zappa)

This is the really out there blowing stuff..I'll cover the groove stuff later

Cavemen/Cavemen..Listen to 5 for Eddie
Allan Holdsworth/Secrets
Bunny Brunnel/Dedication
Buell Nedlinger/Big Drum
Jeff Babko/Mondo Trio
All Of The Jing Chi Stuff
Chick/Live At The Blue Note Tokyo
Warren Cuccurrulo/Thanks to Frank
All Of the Jeff Richman Tributes/Royal Dan/Visions Of An Inner Mounting Flame, Miles, Weather Report et al.
The Baked Potato 2 Disc Set
Mathieson, Laboriel, Colaiuta, Landau
Scott Kinsey Solo CD
Karizma/Document
The Randy Waldman Stuff (UnReel/Wigged Out/Timing Is Everything)
The Brian Bromberg Stuff (Downright Upright/Wood II)
Los Lobotomies (All Blues)
Jeff Beck/Appearing This Week At Ronnie Scott's

I think we're all waiting to see if the 5 Peace Band release anything

I'm not in my studio right now, so this is all the stuff that comes to mind.....I'll probably post more titles but this is a decent start.
Have Fun


Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 04, 2009, 08:19 PM
Doug, over on the Vinnie worship board, I've got people using a new term: "drum porn." I first passed that one around in describing Vinnie's playing on Patitucci's "Scophile." It's one of the few times I think Vinnie crossed the line from playing out to just going way over the top. Still, you have to hear it to believe it. It's just ridiculous what he's doing.

Mr. A and I have agreed in numerous threads that the first three Patitucci's CDs are "essential" Vinnie listening. I always send people there first, because I think those cuts he plays on are good anchors to really understand the unusual perspective Vinnie takes in his playing. There's metric modulation and there's over-the-bar phrasing, but on those cuts he seems to live in a perpetual state of both without imposing on the meter or the music. Personally, I love the stuff he did on GRP Super Live and Karizma's "Document" album, even though I sort of cringe at some of the music and the dated sounds. My favorite off-the-beaten path recording is the stuff he played on Jeff Beal's "Three Graces." It's stellar music and composing that brings out some of the most nuanced, subtle "Vinnie" stuff I've ever heard. It's also Weckl's first re-introduction post-Gruber (if I have my timeline straight) and I've said many times it's difficult to tell the difference between the two on their cuts (and I pride myself on being able to pick those two guys out based on their phrasings!).
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 04, 2009, 10:35 PM
This is my favorite Vinnie take from the Document album. Just Vinnie going for it, raising everyone's game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBmZ6njbqk

I should also mention on the off-the-beaten-path stuff, Vinnie wrote a song for one of Brandon Fields' first CDs called "Face On Mars." It starts out curious enough, but they segue into a blowing section, and Vinnie's tasty fill to that section will melt your face of it. It's not highly technical, it's just one of those classic Vinnie musical moments, particularly as he's leading into an incredibly challenging section. Amazing left-foot hi-hat work there.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 04, 2009, 11:17 PM
How could I forget Steve Tavaglione-Blu Tav..I'm getting old.
Also..Wishful Thinking, Bob Malach/Mood Swing/Brandon Fields...the list goes on and on.

If you haven't got these titles sometimes the hunt itself is fun!

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Crigger on January 05, 2009, 02:35 AM
I don't think anyone's mentioned his 1994 self titled solo release... wonderful CD... actually one of my favorites for that era period.

dc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on January 05, 2009, 03:57 AM
I've seen Vinnie up close several times, but the best experience was unique.  I managed the Drum Shoppe in Toronto in the late 80's and we had Vinnie and Alex Acuna come up for a Yamaha day.  I had a great chance to hang with Vinnie for 3 days and play with him.  I think there's a shot of the clinic up on my  http://www.drummercafe.com/featured-musician/drummer-percussionist/doug-tann.html]drummer page .

I was at that clinic, ostensibly to see Acuna. I was in early highschool at the time. I was blown away by Vinnie's chops but, at the time, I had little to no concept of what he was doing...

Still don't.  ;D

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on January 05, 2009, 07:29 AM
OK I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY OTHER THAN AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH IT'S DOUG TANN- i LOVE YOU MAN!!!!!

I don't think anyone's mentioned his 1994 self titled solo release... wonderful CD... actually one of my favorites for that era period.

dc

yes fantastic cd!!!!!  it's at my friend's house and I have to get it back!

great thread and about time!

Is it true that Vinnie can sight read hieroglyphics?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 05, 2009, 01:54 PM
I don't think anyone's mentioned his 1994 self titled solo release... wonderful CD... actually one of my favorites for that era period.

dc

It's funny how the drummer best known for "blowing" ends up restraining himself on most tracks on his own CD. Slink is probably favorite track on that one. The feel is juicy sweet.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 05, 2009, 03:41 PM
I too must give some love to the  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003OZJ?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000003OZJ]Vinnie Colaiuta CD .  Personally I don't think there's a bad track on it.  I dig the groove on "Chauncey".
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on January 05, 2009, 04:31 PM
Wow, those are priceless interactions!  I've never seen Vinnie live, just on video. 

The funniest Vinnie thing I saw was a clip of him and Zappa and they were just goofing around.  V played a bunch of cool licks and then he started making seal or walrus sounds.  Totally hilarious. Of course, with Zappa, that might have actually been a real song. 

That clip is of course to be found on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPobB_1kZao
Have watched it number of times. ;D

I like his playing with Sting because he was really playing for the song and in my very humble opinion when he's playing the more fusion stuff these days he gets sometimes too busy.

Further more I like his playing with Tom Scott and not to forget with Joni Mitchell. The JM video entitled "refuge on the roads" is extremely good.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 05, 2009, 05:31 PM
And since we're posting clips on my favorite topic, here's a live performance of a song that was perhaps the defining moment in Vinnie's career. It's Vinnie doing a "lite" version of the "Vinnie stuff" for a pop setting -- and it works so well. Just a brilliant job of playing, composing, working with a challenging artist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBgyKoWPC5Q
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 05, 2009, 06:39 PM
Andiamo Vincenzo..as Sting says....Brilliant, my friend, just brilliant...although it's an interesting study to see just how dramatically his posture and body language have changed over the years..

And Felix....you're gonna make me blush, my brother.

This is a wonderful board!

I'm in the middle of recording some BLOWING fusion tracks with a bud of mine from GIT.  If we get finished before I go back out I'll give you all a sneak peak.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 05, 2009, 11:25 PM
Ha, that's the V clip I was talking about!  Crazy. 

I have only a precious few of the recordings listed so far.  The guy has so darn many great recordings out there.  I have some more exploring to do! I'll have to search my memory to list what my favorite recordings are that I own. 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: frankbriggs on January 07, 2009, 04:06 PM
Great..
Good one Doug.

I think it will be nearly impossible for anyone to touch his career at this point.
So much to talk about.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 07, 2009, 04:28 PM
I do wonder how much time he's actually in the studio these days, given his touring schedule.

I know it's generally acknowleged that Vinnie has been at the top of the recording pile for a very long time, with maybe only Josh Freese covering some of the harder edged things..although i do own the Megadeth album that Vinnie is on and even though it's not my cup of tea..I still think Vinnie sounds very convincing.

Frank's point is excellent...I can't name too many guys that get hired by Dave Mustaine and then Faith Hill and then Herbie and then David Foster and then Corea/McLaughlin and then Jeff Beck and then Glen Campbell..and the last goes on.

I do have a wonderful 1st person account of Vinnie in the studio.  I worked with an Italin singer named Enrico Ciefiello who hired Vinnie and Neil Stubenhaus to play on his album.  I can share the details if we think it's appropriate to get that detailed.

Love this stuff

Cheers


Doug

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 07, 2009, 04:30 PM
I can share the details if we think it's appropriate to get that detailed.

Only you can decide if it's appropriate, but I'm always up for a Vinnie story.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: KevinD on January 07, 2009, 08:39 PM
I do have a wonderful 1st person account of Vinnie in the studio.  I worked with an Italin singer named Enrico Ciefiello who hired Vinnie and Neil Stubenhaus to play on his album.  I can share the details if we think it's appropriate to get that detailed.


That would be a good story to hear, I'm always interested in the behind the scenes aspect of things.

Do you know anything about the session that he did with a Swiss musician named Matthias Heimlicher? (I admit I had to Google him to find out who he was) There is a video on YouTube of Vinnie in the studio with Jon Landau, Steve Lukather and Simon Phillips. It looks to be recorded at Simon's house/studio where they did the last Toto album. Simon appears to be engineering the sessions, although there is some footage of him playing too.

That is a lot of high rate talent! I've seen some other videos on YouTube of some of those guys in session for a lot of foreign artists. The tune on that particular YouTube video is pretty laid back and generic, I don't think anyone was struggling to play their part, but I guess the artists are willing to pay for the best.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Steve "Smitty" Smith on January 08, 2009, 09:52 AM
It's Vinnie doing a "lite" version of the "Vinnie stuff" for a pop setting

I’ll take “Vinnie Lite” over monster Vinnie any day.  I love watching mind blowing chops, but his pop playing his much more satisfying to me on a musical and emotional level.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 08, 2009, 11:00 AM
I’ll take “Vinnie Lite” over monster Vinnie any day.  I love watching mind blowing chops, but his pop playing his much more satisfying to me on a musical and emotional level.


I love both, but it's the 'Lite' version I find inspiring. That's why I love the GRP SuperLive CD. There's no shortage of tasty inspiration there.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: frankbriggs on January 08, 2009, 06:55 PM
That clip is of course to be found on Youtube
Have watched it number of times. ;D

I like his playing with Sting because he was really playing for the song and in my very humble opinion when he's playing the more fusion stuff these days he gets sometimes too busy.

Further more I like his playing with Tom Scott and not to forget with Joni Mitchell. The JM video entitled "refuge on the roads" is extremely good.

Thanks for that..I had never seen this.
How much fun were these guys having!? Priceless.

Vinnie is a bonafide genius no doubt. Miles once said a drummer like Tony Williams only comes around every 50 years. I think Vinnie is that guy of our generation.

Has anyone heard "River" the Joni Letters? I hope that wasn't already mentioned...
His performance on Nefertitti is amazing and very different for him. A totally different drum sound also.. low pitched Elvin-esque.  He sounds like Elvin on steroids.. or acid.

I agree with the above regarding his solo album. I like Darlene's Song...some great harmonic stuff going on, great writing .. oh yeah and the drumming is nice too:)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: frankbriggs on January 08, 2009, 07:10 PM
It's also Weckl's first re-introduction post-Gruber (if I have my timeline straight) and I've said many times it's difficult to tell the difference between the two on their cuts (and I pride myself on being able to pick those two guys out based on their phrasings!).

Dave Weckl is on a par with Vinnie imho. It wouldn't surprise me that they could mimic each other.
Their careers are different. To me the greatest drummers add to the vocabulary of the instrument..which they have done along with Gadd, Tony etc etc etc.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 08, 2009, 08:38 PM
Speaking only for myself....and with humble respect..I prefer blowing, crazy, on the edge, seat of your pants, hold your breath, is he really going for that and is he gonna make it out alive Vinnie.

Saying that..my favourite DVD is the Boccelli DVD that David Foster produced called:

 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000I2J6RI?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000I2J6RI]Andrea Bocelli: Under The Desert Sky

Vinnie plays nothin but perfect pop pocket for 90 minutes with an amazing audio mix

Also:

 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008AOXD?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00008AOXD]Faith Hill: When The Lights Go Down

Once again..superb groove with plenty of over the ride cymbal close ups camera shots.

Also:

 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/6305869049?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=6305869049]CHAKA KHAN: BET ON JAZZ

A little more playing, but still plenty of meat and potatoes.

All titles are currently in stock from various e-sellers.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 08, 2009, 11:07 PM
Dave Weckl is on a par with Vinnie imho. It wouldn't surprise me that they could mimic each other.

Without a doubt, and we could have another thread on Weckl just like this one. The difference to me is Weckl always has A+ facility on display, whereas Vinnie is more about the surprise at the turn and going way out there on a limb without a rope or a seat belt or a safety net. Vinnie does improv live I would be terrified of attempting privately in my practice room. Or even think about doing privately in my practice room.

What I was pointing out was how both Vinnie and Weckl are distinctive in their approaches, but their playing on the Beal disc was so sparse but intense and technical at the same time, I couldn't tell the difference between the two. If you listen to the Patitucci CDs recorded several years earlier, even a newbie could pick those guys out song-by-song. Part of it, I believe, was Weckl's new approach, and that whole thing has unfolded into a much bigger transition than I think any of us predicted. Weckl is almost an entirely different drummer these days. But you pick that CD up and you can hear the nuanced thinking, and maybe he was listening a lot to Vinnie back then, because he's using a lot of nested phrasings and meter modulations that we more commonly associate with Vinnie.

Anyway, they're both monsters, and I'm so happy to grow up in an age when these guys have done their best work. Before I'm gone, I'll be able to tell the next four or five generations of drummers how I witnessed the art of drumming being advanced to unbelievable levels.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Steve "Smitty" Smith on January 09, 2009, 10:00 AM
Speaking only for myself....and with humble respect..I prefer blowing, crazy, on the edge, seat of your pants, hold your breath, is he really going for that and is he gonna make it out alive Vinnie.

That Vinnie is certainly is something to behold.  :)

I agree that Weckl appears to be on the Vinnie level of amazing technique and artistry.  I also think Steve Smith is on that level. I can't recommend his latest DVD enough.  In terms of sheer technical mastery, the DVD is jaw-dropping.  Don’t let this one pass you by.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on January 09, 2009, 05:47 PM
Discussed Vinnie's playing with FZ with my drum teacher very recently. (As a matter of fact we do that every lesson  :-\. ) I made an assertion which he agreed upon. Bozzio and Wackerman were from a rhythmical and technical point (more than) capable of playing his music. But Vinnie went beyond that. A prime example is the shut up 'n play your guitar album. A lot of the song are polyrhythmic and polymeter explorations between FZ and VC. I haven't heard that kind of interaction (yet) between FZ with Bozzio or Wackerman. Steve Vai made transcriptions of their playing from that record.

Don't get me wrong here, that I think the one is better than the other. I think FZ and VC were a match made in heaven. ;D Also consider Weckl as the "perfect" C. Corea drummer.  


What do you think? Any comments?

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: frankbriggs on January 09, 2009, 06:22 PM
Discussed Vinnie's playing with FZ with my drum teacher very recently. (As a matter of fact we do that every lesson  :-\. ) I made an assertion which he agreed upon. Bozzio and Wackerman were from a rhythmical and technical point (more than) capable of playing his music. But Vinnie went beyond that. A prime example is the shut up 'n play your guitar album. A lot of the song are polyrhythmic and polymeter explorations between FZ and VC. I haven't heard that kind of interaction (yet) between FZ with Bozzio or Wackerman. Steve Vai made transcriptions of their playing from that record.

Don't get me wrong here, that I think the one is better than the other. I think FZ and VC were a match made in heaven. ;D Also consider Weckl as the "perfect" C. Corea drummer.  


What do you think? Any comments?

Apples and Oranges..
I actually like Chad the best with FZ.. it doesn't mean that he was in fact the best only that I like it the best.
I know Chad a little, he used to be my landlord until I bought this place from him. He would be the first to tell you that he can't compare with Vinnie or Terry. I disagree.  The question would be on what criteria would this be judged? Musically or technically? 

 In my opinion it comes down to making music  I enjoy the fact that they have such unique and recognizable voices. They all brought a lot to the table in Zappa's band and yes Vinnie is a freak of nature genius no doubt.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 09, 2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Weckl the perfect Corea drummer..for the Electric Band...no arguments..Three Quartets....Steve Gadd....Nite Sprite..Steve Gadd....Leprechaun...Steve Gadd..Lenore...Steve Gadd....Humpty Dumpty...Steve Gadd

And let's not even mention R.T.F. (Although Steve Gadd was the original drummer in Return To Forever)

It's all still good

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 10, 2009, 11:25 AM
Also consider Weckl as the "perfect" C. Corea drummer.

I dunno. Corea may feel that well, but I always felt like Gadd and Brechtlein had a more natural understanding of the music. Weckl was just being Weckl on those CDs, which is sort of like saying Superman was just being Superman.

Vinnie w/Chick & Tooch Live at the Tokyo Blue Note ... now that is some Warp 12 Vinnie right there. I never felt like Vinnie was much of a swinger until I saw that footage. That just blew me away and I can't believe that was never released in the States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8CDtEVNFNc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 10, 2009, 11:42 AM
Vinnie Swings his ass off..in addition to the Chick/Blue Note thing that Gaddabout alluded to........

Paul Anka: Rock Swings
Quincy Jones: Basie & Beyond
Wayne Bergeon: Plays Well With Others

Bunny Brunnel: Dedication (Check out Pinocchio!!!!!!!!)

Nothin but love for Vinnie
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on January 10, 2009, 12:39 PM
I dunno. Corea may feel that well, but I always felt like Gadd and Brechtlein had a more natural understanding of the music. Weckl was just being Weckl on those CDs, which is sort of like saying Superman was just being Superman.

Vinnie w/Chick & Tooch Live at the Tokyo Blue Note ... now that is some Warp 12 Vinnie right there. I never felt like Vinnie was much of a swinger until I saw that footage. That just blew me away and I can't believe that was never released in the States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8CDtEVNFNc

Dude I cant disagree with you more. Have you seen the Chick Corea Elektric Band Live at Montreux 2004? I cant believe the stuff he's doing. I searioulsy feel he has an amazing grasp on the music.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on January 10, 2009, 01:49 PM
Vinnie Swings his ass off..in addition to the Chick/Blue Note thing that Gaddabout alluded to........

Paul Anka: Rock Swings
Quincy Jones: Basie & Beyond
Wayne Bergeon: Plays Well With Others

Bunny Brunnel: Dedication (Check out Pinocchio!!!!!!!!)

Nothin but love for Vinnie

It's funny, because I really love much of Vinnie's playing, largely on the poppier stuff. I have two of the three albums you mention above, and while I really enjoy them, I'm never particularly struck with his swing feel. On the Anka album he's playing all the "right" notes, but I never feel like he's really in his element there. Though, I think that some of the arrangements on that album are a little busy and take away from the overall feel, I also just don't feel Vinnie's playing propels the rhythm section the way it could in that context.

But, hey, the guy kicks my butt, who am I to talk?  ;D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chris Whitten on January 10, 2009, 03:12 PM
Vinnie is one of the greats of our time.
As far as soul and understanding goes though, I much prefer Gadd and White with Corea and Harvey Mason with Herbie Hancock.
It's a game of percentages though, they are all master musicians.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on January 10, 2009, 04:11 PM
Vinnie is one of the greats of our time.
As far as soul and understanding goes though, I much prefer Gadd and White with Corea and Harvey Mason with Herbie Hancock.
It's a game of percentages though, they are all master musicians.

I have a similar take on things, Chris.

It's like choosing between really beautiful red things and really beautiful blue things. Something just gets me about red...
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on January 11, 2009, 07:17 PM

And let's not even mention R.T.F. (Although Steve Gadd was the original drummer in Return To Forever)

I believe Airto was the original RTF drummer.  Are you thinking the original electik band drummer?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 11, 2009, 07:32 PM
Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on January 11, 2009, 08:56 PM
Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

I own the first Return To Forever album, on vinyl, which is also titled  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000262QW?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000262QW]Return To Forever  and Airto is the drummer. This album was released in 1972. Two albums later and the very next year (1973),  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000046YK?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000046YK]Light As A Feather  was released ... and Airto is on that. In fact the same band played on both of these albums.

The first Chick Corea album that Steve Gadd played drums on was  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000046QW?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000046QW]The Leprechaun  (1975), several years after the first RTF album.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 11, 2009, 09:08 PM
Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

Cheers

Doug

According to the Gadd issue of Traps, he was recruited by Chick in 1973 to join R.T.F., which by then had already released "Light As A Feather". 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 11, 2009, 09:21 PM
I stand humbly corrected...even and old guy can learn from you youngins...

Thanks for the education

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 11, 2009, 09:25 PM
Dougie eats humble pie

The first line-up (1972 - 1973)

The first Return to Forever band played latin-oriented music. The initial band consisted of singer (and occasional percussionist) Flora Purim, her husband Airto Moreira on drums and other percussion, Corea's longtime musical co-worker Joe Farrell on saxophone and flute, and the young bassist Stanley Clarke. Especially in this first line-up, Clarke played double bass in addition to electric bass. Corea's electric piano was the leading instrument in this group's sound, but Clarke and Farrell were also given plenty of solo space. Purim's vocal gave some commercial appeal for their music, but many compositions were instrumental and more or less experimental in their nature. The music was composed by Corea with the exception of the title track of the second album which was written by Stanley Clarke. Lyrics were often written by Corea's friend Neville Potter, and were often related to scientology, though this is not necessarily easy to recognize for outsiders. Clarke was involved in Scientology through Corea, but left the church in the early 1980s.
The first album, named simply Return to Forever, was cut for ECM Records in 1972 and was initially released only in Europe. This album featured Corea's famous compositions Crystal Silence and La Fiesta. Shortly afterwards, Corea, Airto, Clarke and Tony Williams formed the band for Stan Getz's album Captain Marvel (1972), which featured Corea's compositions including some from the first and second Return to Forever albums. The second album, Light as a Feather (1973), was released by Polydor and included the famous song, Spain.
[edit]The jazz-rock era (1973 - 1976)

After the second album, Farrell, Purim and Moreira left the group in order to set up their own band. Guitarist Bill Connors, drummer Steve Gadd and percussionist Mingo Lewis were taken on. However, Gadd was not willing to go touring and leave his job as a hard working studio drummer. Lenny White (who had played with Corea in Miles Davis's band) replaced Gadd and Lewis, and the group's third album, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973), was rerecorded. The first recording featuring Gadd was never released and is said to be missing.
The nature of the group's music had now completely changed to "jazz-rock", similar to what The Mahavishnu Orchestra and some progressive rock bands were doing at the same time. The music was still relatively melodic, relying on strong themes, but traditional jazz feel was almost completely gone. Distorted guitar had become prominent in the band's new sound, and Clarke played mostly electric bass. A new singer had not been hired, and all the songs were now instrumentals. This however, did not lead to a decrease in the band's commercial success - Return to Forever's jazz-rock albums always found their way to US pop album charts.
The second jazz-rock album, Where Have I Known You Before, (1974) was similar in style to the previous album, but Corea played synthesizers in addition to electric piano, and Clarke had developed his famous electric bass sound and style. Since Bill Connors had wanted to concentrate on his solo career, the group had also hired a new guitarist. Earl Klugh played guitar on some group's live performances but he was soon replaced by the 19 year old guitar wizard Al Di Meola, who played guitar on the album.
The next album, No Mystery (1975), was made with the same line-up as its predecessor, but the style of music was more varied. The first side of the record consisted mostly of jazz-funk, while the second side featured Corea's acoustic title track and a long composition that borrowed partly from Spanish music. On this and the following album, each member of the group composed at least one of the tracks. No Mystery won the Grammy Award for Best Jazz Performance by a Group.
The last album by the most long-lasting lineup of Return to Forever was Romantic Warrior (1976). By this time the group had left Polydor for Columbia Records. The album became the best selling of all Return to Forever albums, eventually reaching gold disc status. This album continued experiments in the realm of jazz-rock and related genres, and is also famous for its technically demanding playing.
After "Romantic Warrior" and its subsequent tour, after signing a multi-million dollar contract with CBS and to the surprise of the rest of the band, Chick Corea decided to change the lineup of the group without White and di Meola.[1]
[edit]The last album (1977)

The final version of Return to Forever featured a four piece horn section and Corea's wife Gayle singing vocals, and recorded just one studio album, Musicmagic (1977). The music had returned closer to the gentle feel of the music of the first line-up. However, instead of strong Latin influences, the last album features bombastic arrangements for horn section and synthesizers. Compositions remained relatively complex.
After Musicmagic, Chick Corea officially disbanded the group. Reasons are speculative, but Stanley Clarke's leaving the Church of Scientology is believed to be a factor. In the years following the breakup, Al di Meola commented on the complications of reuniting the di Meola/White lineup "I think we have a Scientology problem to deal with, possibly due to Stanley leaving Scientology. That doesn't sit very well with Chick."[1]
In 1983 the White/Di Meola line up returned briefly on the stage, but did not record a new album, only one track issued on Corea's Touchstone album entitled "Compadres".
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on January 11, 2009, 09:33 PM
According to the Gadd issue of Traps, he was recruited by Chick in 1973 to join R.T.F., which by then had already released "Light As A Feather". 

That would be incorrect actually. Read my previous post; the one just before your post Carl.

I stand humbly corrected...even and old guy can learn from you youngins...

Thanks for the education.

I know your birthdate ... you are only 4 years older than me.  ;)

Thanks for all the details you provided in your last post.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 11, 2009, 10:50 PM
That would be incorrect actually. Read my previous post; the one just before your post Carl.


yeah dude, I should have pointed out that he only joined for a brief time & acknowledged that Airto played before Gadd joining.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Crigger on January 12, 2009, 12:13 AM

After the second album, Farrell, Purim and Moreira left the group in order to set up their own band. Guitarist Bill Connors, drummer Steve Gadd and percussionist Mingo Lewis were taken on. However, Gadd was not willing to go touring and leave his job as a hard working studio drummer. Lenny White (who had played with Corea in Miles Davis's band) replaced Gadd and Lewis, and the group's third album, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973), was rerecorded. The first recording featuring Gadd was never released and is said to be missing.


This is the story I always heard and is now documented on the Verve reissue set from 1996 - Return to the Seventh Galaxy: The Anthology

 http://www.amazon.com/Return-Seventh-Galaxy-Anthology-Forever/dp/B00000474W/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1231740449&sr=8-23

There are - if I remember correctly - two tracks from a radio broadcast with "lost" Hymn of Seventh Galaxy band w/Gadd and Mingo Lewis. So beyond recording that album, they were actually gigging before Gadd's decision came down.

For me, as much as I love Gadd's collaborations with Chick on Leprechaun and My Spanish Heart, etc., I have no regrets about 1973's turn of events as that would've meant missing out on Lenny's wonderful contributions through the four "main" RTF albums - which I adore just as much, if not more.

dc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chris Whitten on January 12, 2009, 01:22 AM
Yes, I was listening to 'Hymn Of The Seventh Galaxy' and Romantic Warrior' just a couple of weeks ago and it struck me then just how they emphasized the rock in jazz/rock.
Lenny was whacking the kit and sloshing his hi-hats, they were phasing the toms and overheads from time to time, Bill Connors, then DiMeola were hitting the distortion pedal.
Of all the jazz/rock supergroups, I think RTF used the rock and funk cues a little more, other than the originator (Miles). It would have gone a different direction with Gadd I think, although he's no rock/funk slouch.
I spent hours listening to this when I was 16.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lFP-alYNq5I
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on January 12, 2009, 01:23 AM
From the horses mouth.... http://www.return2forever.com/index.cfm

And ...Airto Moreira was at Yoshi's last week.  I wasn't able to go but I did hear him interviewed on the local jazz station http://kcsm.org/jazz91/index.php (a great station by the way that you can stream online)...  He mentioned that Chick and company are talking about another RETURN, with the original members of RTF.  That would be very cool.....
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on January 12, 2009, 01:40 AM

Well we've gotten off of the Vinnie subject and I've been holding back but I guess it's late, I'm tired so I'm gonna add some rambling...  for me the key Electrik Band CDs are Light Years, Inside Out, Eye of the Beholder.  According to my taste Weck is perfect for these sessions.  Watching stuff on Youtube doesn't cut it for me.  I have to close my eyes, have good sound and hear the song(s).  What is accomplished in those sessions (recorded and live) is/was simply amazing.  In his latest Electrik Band CD, Corea says that group (JP, FG, EM, DW..) is the perfect one for what he was doing.  Hard for me to grasp that someone would suggest any of those members doesn't get the music. 

Back to Vinnie please!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Dave Heim on January 12, 2009, 09:44 AM
Re: Weckl the perfect Corea drummer..for the Electric Band...no arguments..Three Quartets....Steve Gadd....Nite Sprite..Steve Gadd....Leprechaun...Steve Gadd..Lenore...Steve Gadd....Humpty Dumpty...Steve Gadd

And let's not even mention R.T.F. (Although Steve Gadd was the original drummer in Return To Forever)

It's all still good

Cheers

Doug

Three Quartets with Steve Gadd:  one of my favorite pieces of music!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 12, 2009, 01:30 PM
Did someone ask us to get back to Vinnie...

Enjoy this..Toronto 1990


(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh196%2Fdougtann%2Fvinnie-2-upload.jpg&hash=6b1f5dfb3adb8079de08b5a66b8073fd)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on January 12, 2009, 01:38 PM
Nice cherry recording customs.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on January 12, 2009, 05:14 PM
Nice cherry recording customs.

He gave them a sound thumping, he did.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 12, 2009, 07:15 PM
One of my fave Vinnie videos is the Buddy Rich  Memorial with Weckl and Gadd.  Wowzers! 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 12, 2009, 07:27 PM
My first introduction to Vinnie. I'm not ashamed to say I've used that opening hi-hat lick many times (because at the time I thought it was the height of hip).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NYx5O8M2Yo
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 12, 2009, 07:31 PM
More on that ALF jingle ... notice the second time through Vinnie rides quarters on the bell while playing "&s" with the left-foot hi-hat. The groove itself hasn't changed, but the rhythm has an interesting new twist. Just one of the many little Gadd-influenced flourishes Vinnie does in a pop setting that first endeared me to him. Subtle and nuanced ...
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 12, 2009, 10:05 PM
 gotta love us drummers, man...leave it to us to discuss the nuances of the ALF jingle!  :D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 14, 2009, 07:51 PM
I actually bought the bootleg dvd of Vinnie playing all the chasers from the Joan River's t.v. show. 4 hours of 30 second blowing

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 14, 2009, 07:57 PM
nice Doug! i've been tryin' to search for some of that on youtube.  i was able to snag the A Customs demo video feat. Vinnie when I was workin' @ a music store.  He plays some of the Jing Chi catalog on it.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 14, 2009, 08:10 PM
If you have a Mac you can use I Squint to capture youtube video and save it.  I've got tons of Vinnie on video

Cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 14, 2009, 08:54 PM
sorry mac, i'm a pc!   ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Crigger on January 16, 2009, 12:03 AM
If you have a Mac you can use I Squint to capture youtube video and save it.  I've got tons of Vinnie on video

Cheers

Doug

Doug,

Don't you mean TubeSock?  I use iSquint all the time for squishing movies onto my ipod - but don't think it can do the "suck files off youtube" thing.

Also for everyone saving stuff off youtube - particular music stuff - be sure you're viewing the "high-quality" feed, not the "normal quality" feed. Even when there's little change in the picture, there's always a huge change in the sound.

dc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on January 16, 2009, 03:31 AM
Re:  Ripping movies form youtube via I-Squint (Mac Only)

1) Find a video you like
2) click on window
3) click on activity
4) find the biggest file (Always in mbytes..never in kbytes)
5) double click on  that file
6) a window opens that says "get video"
7) when the video is loaded on your desk top open I-Squint
8) rename the file as desired and drag into I-Squint
9) Follow the on screen prompts for auto loading into I-Tunes (If you wish)

Nice and easy..I've ripped everything on Vinnie and Tony this way and have it on my video file on one of my 500 gig Lacie's.

Good luck

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: lrac3 on January 17, 2009, 02:13 PM
One of my favorite Vinnie videos is the Sting Ten Summoner's Tales VHS.  Does anyone else own this? Basically the band performs the entire album in a studio @ Sting's place over a 24 hour period.  The only downside is that most of the performances are overdubbed with the album tracks, but its still a treat nonetheless.  The most exciting track on the video IMO is Seven Days, which is not overdubbed & you get a chance to hear Vinnie do his thang.  The video has yet to reach DVD format, but here's a link to purchase a preowned copy of the VHS (for those of you who still own a VCR)
http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Summoners-Tales-Sting/dp/6302714125/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=video&qid=1232222894&sr=8-5

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 22, 2009, 11:35 PM
Hey, it looks like the early Patitucci stuff is out-of-print so I downloaded his self-titled album and the "On the Corner" album.  Of course, I don't have liner notes so can someone clue me in on who drums on each track?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 23, 2009, 11:43 AM
Hey, it looks like the early Patitucci stuff is out-of-print so I downloaded his self-titled album and the "On the Corner" album.  Of course, I don't have liner notes so can someone clue me in on who drums on each track?  Thanks.


Get the first one (self-titled) and the third one (Sketches? Sketchbook? I can never remember). On the Corner was ... OK save for a few special moments.

I remember Vinnie playing on Avenue D, which is pretty good "Vinnie stuff" track. Not legendary, but a good representation of what he's about. Weckl lays down some fohn-kay programming on A Better Mousetrap. Did Vinnie play on Flatbush Ave? I ripped that CD a long time ago and stuck the case in a box somewhere, so I don't remember anymore!!!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 23, 2009, 11:53 AM
OK, just ran through the tracks. Here's the way I remember it:

1. On the Corner - Weckl
2. Avenue D - Vinnie
3. Venetian Moonlight - Can't remember ... maybe Erskine
4. A Better Mousetrap - Weckl
5. Vaya Con Dios - Possibly Alex Acuna ... I recall him on a track or two here
6. Kingston Blues - Vinnie
7. Painting - Acuna again I think
8. Strength to the Weak - Don't remember, but I think that's Richard Tee on keyboards, which is always cool
9. Flatbush Ave. - Weckl
10. Storyteller - ???
11. Bertha's Bop - Almost positive it was Erskine

If you get Patitucci's first one, you not only get Vinnie killing it on several tracks, but you get Erskine playing some AMAZING stuff on Searching, Finding ...

http://www.last.fm/music/John+Patitucci/John+Patitucci

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 23, 2009, 12:03 PM
Cool, thanks.  Yeah I want to get the Sketches or Sketchbook whatever it is too.  Very cool albums.  I like the GRP output from that time period.  Be sure to check out "The Sun Was In My Eyes" on Eric Marienthal's Crossroads CD.  Terry Lynn Carrington rips it up! 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 23, 2009, 12:04 PM
Cool, thanks.  Yeah I want to get the Sketches or Sketchbook whatever it is too.  Very cool albums.  I like the GRP output from that time period.  Be sure to check out "The Sun Was In My Eyes" on Eric Marienthal's Crossroads CD.  Terry Lynn Carrington rips it up! 

Already got it! Vinnie was on that disc, too, so ... ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on January 23, 2009, 12:06 PM
OK, just ran through the tracks. Here's the way I remember it:

1. On the Corner - Weckl
2. Avenue D - Vinnie
3. Venetian Moonlight - Can't remember ... maybe Erskine
4. A Better Mousetrap - Weckl
5. Vaya Con Dios - Possibly Alex Acuna ... I recall him on a track or two here
6. Kingston Blues - Vinnie
7. Painting - Acuna again I think
8. Strength to the Weak - Don't remember, but I think that's Richard Tee on keyboards, which is always cool
9. Flatbush Ave. - Weckl
10. Storyteller - ???
11. Bertha's Bop - Almost positive it was Erskine

If you get Patitucci's first one, you not only get Vinnie killing it on several tracks, but you get Erskine playing some AMAZING stuff on Searching, Finding ...

http://www.last.fm/music/John+Patitucci/John+Patitucci



I've got a couple clips from that Patitucci record posted on my Drum Licks from Hell page:

http://www.keithcronin.com/fromhell.html

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on January 23, 2009, 12:57 PM
I've got a couple clips from that Patitucci record posted on my Drum Licks from Hell page:

http://www.keithcronin.com/fromhell.html



Speaking of which, I offer for your consideration any number of clips from Face on Mars from Brandon Fields' Other Places. I already mentioned Vinnie's fill leading into the C section, but there are so many dazzling points of interaction with Lenny Castro that I can think of at least three "Drum Licks from Hell" that could make it on that page. The fill getting back into the A section for the keyboard solo at 3:32 makes my knees week. One of those rare moments where I really have no idea what's going on, hard to venture a guess how to notate it.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on January 24, 2009, 12:36 AM
I've got a couple clips from that Patitucci record posted on my Drum Licks from Hell page:

http://www.keithcronin.com/fromhell.html



Cool.  Hadn't stopped there for awhile.  Thanks for the reminder! 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on February 05, 2009, 05:20 PM
HAPPY BIRTHDAY VINNIE!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on February 07, 2009, 02:47 PM
Yes sir, Happy belated B-Day to Mr. Calaiuta.  I'm sometimes sad that I missed some of the greats in the past, (Dodds, Roach, Krupa, etc.) but what a great thing to have been around and been able to hear, see, meet the likes of Vinnie. 

To all who have recommended specific recordings, thanks.  I'm now poorer :)
Title: Re: The return of Vinnie, Anybody?
Post by: Doug Tann on May 09, 2009, 03:47 PM
Hello friends...

Just walked in the door after an exhaustive nearly 4 month tour though Mexico and up the California coast.  Wonderful to be home with the wife and dawg.

I've written some new stuff, which I will forward to Bart in the next week. 

As there is no rest for the weary, I'm going to Palm Springs on Saturday to play a concert, but I'm taking the wife with me..

So..I'm back..looking forward to getting to it with you all.

If you haven't yet picked the Vinnie/Jeff Beck Ronnie Scott DVD.....my goodness!!

xoxoxox

Doug Tann
Title: Re: Vinnie w/ Glen Campbell
Post by: Doug Tann on May 11, 2009, 11:58 PM
Anybody else seen this..I think it's been floating around for awhile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ7yjMZ-jCQ&feature=related

Vinnie on a 4 piece kit.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on May 12, 2009, 12:39 AM
Hadn't seen it. Very nice. And Luis Conte on percussion (if you were quick enough to catch it)....  Most people don't realize how great a guitarist he is and how many hit recordings he is on as the guitar sideman.  Up there with the Hal Blaine crew....
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 12, 2009, 10:40 PM
Vinnie with 5 Peace ... that stuff is redorkulous. New Blues, Old Bruise ... are you kidding me? Must have Vinnie recording.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 13, 2009, 12:46 PM
Got the 5 Peace Band C.D. and I agree...pretty silly.  I actually bought the Jeff Beck DVD and I'm digging that..but Vinnie really seems to have raised his seat height...his legs are now on a slight downward slant......I've got a Black & White still from 1978 of Vinnie and he's sitting so low his knees are almost touching his chin..really.  On the Jeff Beck/Ronnie Scott DVD his posture is looking different and he seems to have dropped his left shoulder.  Still playing unreal.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 13, 2009, 01:34 PM
Got the 5 Peace Band C.D. and I agree...pretty silly.  I actually bought the Jeff Beck DVD and I'm digging that..but Vinnie really seems to have raised his seat height...his legs are now on a slight downward slant......I've got a Black & White still from 1978 of Vinnie and he's sitting so low his knees are almost touching his chin..really.  On the Jeff Beck/Ronnie Scott DVD his posture is looking different and he seems to have dropped his left shoulder.  Still playing unreal.

His seat was a little higher for the Buddy Rich taping, but you can clearly see his shoulder dropping over and over to get the angle for fingers on the left hand.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 13, 2009, 04:04 PM
You have to wonder how that hasn't manifested itself into some sort of physiological problems....not that I would wish that on him.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 13, 2009, 04:08 PM
You have to wonder how that hasn't manifested itself into some sort of physiological problems....not that I would wish that on him.

Knowing people who know Vinnie, they will all tell you he's always got sticks in his hands. ALWAYS. On tour he walks around banging on things. At home he walks around with sticks and a pad all day long. He's constantly working on his hands. I think he's one of those guys who's always going to tinker with his technique, so maybe things that don't look ergonomic probably don't hurt him because he's going to do something different next week.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on May 14, 2009, 07:49 AM
You have to wonder how that hasn't manifested itself into some sort of physiological problems....not that I would wish that on him.


I seem to recall an interview where he mentioned that the change in seat height was a result of back problems.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Steve "Smitty" Smith on May 14, 2009, 09:40 AM
I saw Vinnie with Jeff Beck a few weeks ago in Oakland.  He was, of course, incredible.  He can rip (musically and tastefully) at any tempo.  However, it was hard to not pay attention to bassist Tal Wilkenfeld, who just stole the show.  She is my new fave bass player.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 14, 2009, 01:17 PM
Get the Crossroads DVD and The Jeff Beck DVD..Both have Tal & Vinnie and it's worth the price of admission...although saying that..plenty of guys have reported that both concerts are available, in some form, on youtube.

I read the interview where Vinnie mentioned he couldn't stand up straight after a gig, thus the seat adjustment, I just wonder about the shoulder slant..still..it works for him.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 14, 2009, 01:29 PM
I just wonder about the shoulder slant..still..it works for him.

I wouldn't teach it that way for sure!

Experiment with finger control using the forefingers in traditional grip. I think the way he leans becomes necessary to pull it off at the speeds he plays. When the wrist is up, I find it impossible to "pull" with the forefingers in trad grip at faster tempos. There's just no muscle there to build up that kind of dexterity. Turning the hand over even a little bit and you have a large muscle group extending into the wrist, but you have to lean that direction to take the strain off the elbow and shoulder.

I'm relatively confident that's what started it. However, you can see him doing that in a more exaggerated way as he ages, and not just for the fingers. He wasn't leaning into his rimshots like that with Sting, but you see video of him with Karizma and his whole body leans that direction.

I guess it shows ergonomics isn't the be all end all to being a great drummer, but I bet if Vinnie could go back in time (and Weckl for that matter) there are lots of things they would have done differently in terms of their grip and posture. You wonder how long these guys are going to be able to play at their level having had some nasty habits in their early days when they were playing every night.

(Admission: I noticed I was leaning a bit myself watching that video! Strange. My unconscious mind must be imitating these habits, but I work on my posture quite a bit!)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 14, 2009, 03:12 PM
I agree...Vinnie has certainly stretched if not broken some of the "golden rules"  i.e..burying the beater..still...he's my favourite and his technical mastery is not arguable, it is finite.  Just goes to show you....Whatever works for you.  It's ironic because I'm watching Steve Smith right now and he is flawless..both in execution and in posture..but boy does he sit high.  There's a great video of Tony on his DW's and he is sitting really high..but has his shoulders down.  All three of the above mentioned guys are pretty much it, yet all three are completely unique and distinct in drumset ergonomics.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on May 18, 2009, 07:06 AM
Quote
I wouldn't teach it that way for sure!

Nor would I, but I think the point that you and Doug are making is that we need to watch that we don't become overly rigid in our thinking about technique/ergonomics. We can teach what we think works best, based on our own experience and application of principles, but there are so many different schools of thought on technique, as well as myriad examples of great players breaking the rules, that we need to stay open to plenty of possibilities. That said, the difference between a beginner and a great pro breaking the rules is that the latter is usually making a choice given plenty of information. All we can do is lead the horse to water.

I had a great reminder of that watching a video of Gadd with a student the other day. I had no doubt expressed my undying love of Gadd's playing. So, we're watching and the kid pipes up and says, "But he's moving all over the place! What about posture? He just jumped off of his stool!"

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chip Donaho on May 18, 2009, 08:06 AM
"But he's moving all over the place! What about posture? He just jumped off of his stool!"
Goes to show, what works best for YOU. That's a hard one, deciding what's best. So many ways, so many days.  ???
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 21, 2009, 10:49 PM
Just stumbled across this

http://www.lastudiomusicians.net/vinniecolaiutatributepage.htm
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Stanoch on May 21, 2009, 11:21 PM
That's a little gem! Even has "Nightshift..." one of my favs - nice!

Thank you Doug!

Now if I could just find that Don Henley tune he did off some movie soundtrack...I can't even remember the name, but it has that loose reggae feel he turns every which way...it's seriously fun.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on May 22, 2009, 03:34 AM
Nice page, but I'missing some of the Zappa grooves. :) Recently i'm studying Keep it greasy. The transcription was published years ago in MD. Really awsome groove.

So, I hope that Vinnie will join Dweezil Zappa for some guest appearances during one of the Zappa plays Zappa shows. Or he could replace Joe Travers ..... ::)

Vinnie performs the black page, the deathless horsie and some other tunes from the shut up 'n play yer guitar albums. I would love seeing him play those zappa songs again. 

Chance that this will happen is probably one in a million, but it would be very very nice.  I keep on dreaming .... LOL



Any of you have Vinnie's email address ;-)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 22, 2009, 09:56 AM
The stuff with Randy Waldman is what I would consider quintessential Vinnie. It's such a strange format, but everything that makes Vinnie special is on those recordings. Two CDs with Waldman. If you haven't picked them up, don't hesitate.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Bart Elliott on May 22, 2009, 10:05 AM
Any of you have Vinnie's email address ;-)

Actually, yes ... and a cell phone number too.  ;D
Personally, I don't think he'll ever do the Zappa thing again. The Vinnie we know today as a person is very different than the Vinnie I know today. I have a hard time picturing today's Vinnie barking like a seal. haha
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 22, 2009, 11:02 AM
Hey Gaddabout..happy birthday (belated).

There are actually 3 Waldman albums...the third is called "Timing Is Everything" with Vinnie and Brian Bromberg.

Love the Vinnie stuff

Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on May 22, 2009, 03:15 PM
The Vinnie we know today as a person is very different than the Vinnie I know today.

I have that trouble all the time.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on May 22, 2009, 03:18 PM
The stuff with Randy Waldman is what I would consider quintessential Vinnie. It's such a strange format, but everything that makes Vinnie special is on those recordings. Two CDs with Waldman. If you haven't picked them up, don't hesitate.

I've got a transcription of Vinnie's work on Waldman's version of Beethoven's 5th (as a Songo...). It's got some great examples of the kinds of things you're talking about. There are a a few stickings he uses a lot, as well as plenty of 4:3 polyrhythms, etc. Simply brilliant. I worked on it a long time to be able to play a lot of it. I'm sure I still don't do it justice.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 26, 2009, 10:02 PM
Anybody hearing any "rumors" as to Vinnie's summer schedule?

Let me know..I'm hearing whispers


Doug
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 26, 2009, 11:22 PM
Anybody hearing any "rumors" as to Vinnie's summer schedule?

Let me know..I'm hearing whispers


Doug

He just a couple of one-off dates with Sting -- early 90s band -- but he's slated to do the Jeff Beck Euro tour in late June through July. What are you hearing?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on May 28, 2009, 11:02 PM
He just a couple of one-off dates with Sting -- early 90s band -- but he's slated to do the Jeff Beck Euro tour in late June through July. What are you hearing?



i actually watched a jeff beck concert with vinny playing. they played some crazy tunes, vinnie is an animal. i wasnt aware that he was that good at double bass. really getting me inspired to buy one soon.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on May 30, 2009, 03:34 PM
 http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/vinniecolaiutaagainstclock.html]http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/vinniecolaiutaagainstclock.html  

Lately I'm digging into Vinnie's playing with Allan Holdsworth. Looking for some performances by Allan Holdsworth himself I found a footage of a drummer playing along to Allan Holdsworth "Against the clock". For those who are interested. Vinnie plays a solo in that song, with some cool Zappa like  ;D Vinnie stuff. On drummerworld.com you can find the transcription of that solo.

Reminds me of a Vinnie statement I read years ago in magazine: it's fun if you can play all that ridiculous difficult stuff, but it's even more difficult to learn when to play that stuff .

I think this is a nice example .... and definitely not the most ridiculous difficult thing he ever did. ;D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 30, 2009, 04:21 PM
That solo ... I wouldn't even begin to know how to count it. Odd groupings of eighth-note triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets, and 32nds intermingled between broken sixteenths played over the bar in 3/4. Good gravy, that solo is ridiculous. That's not even thinking about pulling off clean 32nds between left hand and right foot for what ... four bars?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on May 30, 2009, 06:15 PM
If I can follow the transcription while listening to the solo i.e. that I understand what he's doing, then I'm a happy person.

Well this is a typical youtube clip, some guy playing along to a track,

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuTyiMS81Bs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuTyiMS81Bs

The solo starts around 3'.10".  I think he plays the solo quiet accurately. At the end he's cheating .... no 32nds between hand and foot. So I'll give him 2 out of 10 points. ;-)


 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 30, 2009, 07:55 PM
Wow. Olaf gets an A.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on May 30, 2009, 09:33 PM
That solo ... I wouldn't even begin to know how to count it. Odd groupings of eighth-note triplets, quintuplets, sextuplets, and 32nds intermingled between broken sixteenths played over the bar in 3/4. Good gravy, that solo is ridiculous. That's not even thinking about pulling off clean 32nds between left hand and right foot for what ... four bars?



gaddabout, what do those 5's mean over those 16th notes, i know the 3's mean triplets. what do the 5's mean?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 30, 2009, 09:35 PM


gaddabout, what do those 5's mean over those 16th notes, i know the 3's mean triplets. what do the 5's mean?

Quintuplet sixteenths. 5 strokes to 1 quarter note.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on May 30, 2009, 10:40 PM
yeah thats what i thought they were. would you play the phrase as a 5 stroke roll?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on May 31, 2009, 02:22 AM
Erk

Vinnie is an animal, probably a seal  ;D.

Vinnie has mastered the tables of time years ago. I know a great book on that subject.... ;-) And if you can play a triplet to a quarter, (going back and forth from straight 8th, triplets and 16th ) then the quintuplets are just as difficult to master. I.e. if you can play triplet then you can play quintuplets, septuplets and so on .... with a little practice.

But I think it's more important to learn play 'easy beats" fluently, then this kind a stuff. But this is the Vinnie topic ;-).

CU René

Erk, check out the Black page in the education section ....
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 31, 2009, 09:34 AM
would you play the phrase as a 5 stroke roll?

The notation has nothing to do with the sticking. It's a coincidence, though you COULD in FACT play quint sixteenths as five-stroke rolls (by slurring the space between the tap and the first stroke of the roll). However, this notation has accents that pretty much demand single strokes.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on June 01, 2009, 04:28 PM
gaddabout, you can count them as 12345 right? i was talking to my teacher about it today.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Nathan Cartier on June 01, 2009, 05:39 PM
The worst thing about that chart:  The 3's and 5's look very similar in that font.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on June 01, 2009, 05:45 PM
gaddabout, you can count them as 12345 right? i was talking to my teacher about it today.

Ummmm. That's not helpful. Try this:

Counting:
1-quin-tup-l-et
2-quin-tup-l-et
3-quin-tup-l-et

Sticking:
rlrlr
lrlrl
rlrlr

The numbers in that counting system represent the quarter note in the 3/4 time signature. The whole point of counting is to divide the notes/strokes in between the pulse (in this case, quarter notes). If you're counting "12345" you're not really subdividing. You wouldn't count sixteenth notes as '1234' would you? Of course not. We commonly count those as '1-e-&-a, 2-e-&-a, etc.' We reserve the numbers for the resolution at the pulse. The same logic applies to sixteenth-note quintuplets.

Keep in mind how the math works out here, too:

1 quarter note = 2 eighth notes = 3 eighth-note triplets = 4 sixteenth notes = 5 sixteenth-note tuplets = 6 sixteenth-note tuplets=8 32nd notes.

You're trying to fit a contiguous grouping of five -- evenly -- into the space of one quarter note.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Nathan Cartier on June 02, 2009, 11:18 AM
Don't be so quick to contradict another teacher, Matt, I've been taught the same way. 

I can explain...but writing it would be too difficult...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGhdi7lMco
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on June 02, 2009, 12:10 PM
Nathan, first, your presentation was awesome. You should submit that to Bart as an article for the front page with a link to this thread. Good stuff!

I can't disagree with your logic here, although I've only seen broken nested figures in orchestral or corps settings -- and nothing that challenging to count. I still believe someone new to notation is better off working it out phonetically at first to learn how to feel it. After that, how you count it is less important than simply understanding the math concepts of tuplets.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Nathan Cartier on June 02, 2009, 12:55 PM
Nathan, first, your presentation was awesome. You should submit that to Bart as an article for the front page with a link to this thread. Good stuff!

I can't disagree with your logic here, although I've only seen broken nested figures in orchestral or corps settings -- and nothing that challenging to count. I still believe someone new to notation is better off working it out phonetically at first to learn how to feel it. After that, how you count it is less important than simply understanding the math concepts of tuplets.

Thank you!  I was thinking about how to reply to this thread all night, and I just couldn't do it without being able to talk and write out examples.  

I dunno...first page...that's pretty daunting!  Well, it's cool with me if Bart thinks it's worthy.  

I'd agree that nested figures like that truly only exist in snare drum etudes and percussion ensembles.  It's more of a mental exercise than a physical one, like a Sudoku for drummers.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on June 02, 2009, 01:41 PM
thanks nathan that really helped me out. i can understand it a lot better now. love the shirt too.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Nathan Cartier on June 02, 2009, 01:43 PM
thanks nathan that really helped me out. i can understand it a lot better now. love the shirt too.

I gotta find me a Colbert/Stewart '12 shirt now...
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on June 02, 2009, 01:48 PM
haha of course, 2012 is the year!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on June 02, 2009, 03:31 PM
Hello Nathan and others

Good explanation. I believe that Bart did a lesson on alternatives to counting subdivisions. Couldn't find it, like to mention it as a supplementary to your explanation. So I'll keep it brief here.

An alternative way to counting is singing. The advantage of singing is that it also works at faster speeds and I personally find it easier to add the subdivisions i.e. learning to cope with 5 against 4 polyrhythm. 

So in stead of:

1- trip - let .... sing: Dee Doo Dah or whatever feels and sounds natural (sorry for my Dutch English) and at faster speeds you'll only pronounce the consonants. Singing is easier for me to add the accents and still knowing where you are.

Quintuplets, same story, inspired by my two month old son:

Daa Daa Daa Duh Duh -

;-)

I would have to disagree that nested figures only exist in snare drum etudes. Stravinsky applied it and a lot of other "modern" 19th century "classical" music. And of course Zappa's music ....


Rene





Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chip Donaho on June 02, 2009, 04:27 PM
Singing is easier for me to add the accents and still knowing where you are.
That's how many drummers learned to harmonize and become backup singers. I know I learned that when I was a teen. Which has only been a few years +40.  ;D 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on June 02, 2009, 08:31 PM
WOW!  Awesome job Nathan!     
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Stanoch on June 02, 2009, 09:18 PM
Hey Nathan,
Well done. Very impressive indeed!

The nesting concept makes good sense, like counting in 5/4, but within smaller subdivisions.

Y'all are out of control - but this is good fun!  ;D

I've taught that solo to a few of my students and have heard some nice interpretations in their juries. Breaking it down and shedding it out never fails to remind me what a singularly stunning artist Vinnie Colaiuta is. How many drummers do you know that can walk into a studio and do that, for cryin' out loud?!

For the record, I use konokol (the Indian vocal percussion system) for counting odd groupings in particular but at the end of the day, we're sound merchants so whatever makes it work for you is the way to go.

I have to add that my personal favorite for feeling quintuplets is completely biased by my location on the globe:

"Min-ne-a-po-lis, Min-ne-a-po-lis, Min-ne-a-po-lis..."

 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on June 03, 2009, 04:34 AM
Un-i-ver-si-ty is another device that works.

Ver-y-diff-i-cult is a further possibility, though it sends the wrong message... (This, of course, leads to ver-y-ver-y-diff-i-cult for 7s...)

I think the central point that several of us are making is that we have to find a sound that works and then use our voice to enunciate it. The act of singing might just be our most powerful tool for learning new rhythms. I'm of the mind that this relates to the fact that we are capable of incredible subtly of rhythm and meter in speech - i.e. the part of our brain that speaks/sings is intertwined with the part that hears/creates rhythm. Experiments continue... :)

I use a counting system somewhat like what Nathan describes, though I've started to experiment with Konokol, or my own reasonable facsmile of it. So far my young students don't show a preference either way, and their speed of uptake is about the same. That's what leads me to believe that it's simply the act of finding a sound that counts, though there may be advantages and disadvantages to different sounds - i.e. the problem of the syllabic style when encountering nested rhythms, as Nathan points out or the problem of knowing which beat of the bar you're on when using Konokol.

I started introducing 5s to relative beginners along with triplets and sixteenths, etc. because it dawned on me that what is hard to many of us who weren't taught that stuff early on, is easy for a beginner. They have no preconceived notion that a 5 is tough to play. Perhaps one day the Vinnie stuff will seem old-fashioned... 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on August 03, 2009, 08:16 AM
Don't be so quick to contradict another teacher, Matt, I've been taught the same way. 

I can explain...but writing it would be too difficult...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGhdi7lMco

Awesome bro.    It's going to be very helpful for me as I have been listening to Joe's garage and inspired by Vinnie of course-  Your explanation was very helpful. Yes I'm back to playing some notes now  :)

check out disc #2  Track 4 "He Used to Cut the Grass"  The tune is either in a slow 3/4, 6/8 or 12/8  ::) but practicing these figures within that time signature is something I really want to do.  I'll have to see if I hear that figure within that tune as there are just tons of diamonds to mine from that performance.

I hope hawaii is treating you swell.  Peace out. -f.

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on August 17, 2009, 03:07 PM
Awesome bro.    It's going to be very helpful for me as I have been listening to Joe's garage and inspired by Vinnie of course-  Your explanation was very helpful. Yes I'm back to playing some notes now  :)

check out disc #2  Track 4 "He Used to Cut the Grass"  The tune is either in a slow 3/4, 6/8 or 12/8  ::) but practicing these figures within that time signature is something I really want to do.  I'll have to see if I hear that figure within that tune as there are just tons of diamonds to mine from that performance.

I hope hawaii is treating you swell.  Peace out. -f.





Steve Vai transcribed this tune (guitar AND drums), to be found in the FZ guitar book. He transcribed it in 3/4, but there are some meter changes. Tempo is 72 bpm. This book is a must have for the Vinnie fans, but is nowadays I think very difficult to get.


René
 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on August 19, 2009, 02:13 PM
Had to post this one:

Vinnie playing Mo's vacation (actually the full title is Mo 'n Herbs vacation, bought the original score through Munchkin music) and the blackpage part 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4QqyuWQ7-s

Audio only ........

Hearing Mo's vacation and then think about the anecdote from Steve Vai on VC playing Mo 'n Herbs vacation during a rehearsal .........

René
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: dizz on August 19, 2009, 08:57 PM
Vinnie is completely out of his bird

Nathan, thanks for laying it out so clearly.  I think I see a future teacher in you.  Your breakdown was very interesting indeed.  I look forward to your next vid
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on August 20, 2009, 07:34 AM
the more I play the more I realize how little talent I have compared to some people, esp. vinnie

so he probably sightread Mo's Vacation  ::)

not enough double bass playing though is my only gripe  ;D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Ardent15 on August 29, 2009, 11:47 PM
I showed my brother, who is a drummer that wasn't really familiar with Vinnie ( :o), the infamous fill in Neon Moonlight by Rosco Martinez. He just walked out of the room shaking his head when he heard that fill.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Stanoch on September 09, 2009, 10:28 PM
Here's something for all you Vinnie freaks I just stumbled across from the Australian version of the Today Show. If It's been posted before, my apologies (this is a longer thread than I can review at the moment).

Tal Wilkenfeld is so impressive and she and Vinnie have a marvelous chemistry on everything I've heard them do. I also learned more about her than I knew before watching this clip.

Not a lot of camera work on Vinnie but the playing is top notch heavy doo-do.

The musicianship all around is stunning and the mix is way beyond what you'd expect from television (strap on those headphones if you can).

Try to imagine this happening for 5:26 on the Today Show in the USA! Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_T0pGF0c6Q&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efacebook%2Ecom%2Ftonyaxtell&feature=player_embedded#t=149
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 10, 2009, 12:56 AM
That's back when people were whispering speculating that Vinnie and Tal were dating, which was sort of creepy to think about. Don't believe it was ever true.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on September 10, 2009, 07:37 AM
Vinnie can make anyone sound good.

She's ok, freak factor there.  "I'm sixteen. I'm a girl. I play bass pretty good. I'm on TV." ::)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 10, 2009, 09:56 AM
For everybody who says big deal, I could have done that, etc.


Then why didn't you?


She was performing with folks like Vinnie and Jeff Beck while still in her teens. Those are folks who can play with anybody they choose.

That's not something *I* accomplished. But I sure wish I had. How about you? And if you had, how would you feel to have your accomplishments publicly slagged?

Sour grapes don't make anybody look good.

Me, I say good for her.  At least she's putting her energy into being a serious musician, rather than a pseudo-stripper like Britney Spears. And it seems to be working for her.


EDIT: I see the most bitter remarks have now been removed. But I'll leave mine up there.

Criticizing is easy.

Achieving is hard.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: DoubleC on September 10, 2009, 11:15 AM
Oh man, how can anyone have anything bad to say about Tal's playing especially considering her age?  I love her CD.......Keith Carlock is playing a couple of tracks.....so good. I personally love Tal's tone and feel.

People like Tal, Hannah, Thomas Pridgen, Tony Royster, etc......young musicians that have accomplished so much in little time.  So inspiring to an old man like me............

Thanks Mr. A for saying this.  I'm in awe of her.  Tal fan....peace out.

cc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 10, 2009, 11:39 AM
TAL ROCKS!  I'd be honored to have the opportunity to perform with her.  Drummers love great bassists and I'm sure Vinnie or Jeff Beck could have selected from MANY.  I'd have to say she's at the top of my list as well!

I don't know if Tal has any idea who I am, but I've certainly followed her career for a while and I own her cd too. I think its awesome!

Again, it's not about gender, or age, or hype....it's about musicianship. IMHO Tal's got it!

If I EVER have the opportunity to hang with her...I"M THERE!

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 10, 2009, 12:23 PM
For everybody who says big deal, I could have done that, etc.


Then why didn't you?


She was performing with folks like Vinnie and Jeff Beck while still in her teens. Those are folks who can play with anybody they choose.

That's not something *I* accomplished. But I sure wish I had. How about you? And if you had, how would you feel to have your accomplishments publicly slagged?

Sour grapes don't make anybody look good.

Me, I say good for her.  At least she's putting her energy into being a serious musician, rather than a pseudo-stripper like Britney Spears. And it seems to be working for her.


EDIT: I see the most bitter remarks have now been removed. But I'll leave mine up there.

Criticizing is easy.

Achieving is hard.

Tal played with Chick Corea and Jeff Beck. That's the official Badge of Bad A** right there. When you get calls from people like that and ace the gig, your age is totally irrelevant at that point, IMO.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 10, 2009, 12:26 PM
Oh man, how can anyone have anything bad to say about Tal's playing especially considering her age?  I love her CD.......Keith Carlock is playing a couple of tracks.....so good. I personally love Tal's tone and feel.

People like Tal, Hannah, Thomas Pridgen, Tony Royster, etc......young musicians that have accomplished so much in little time.  So inspiring to an old man like me............

Thanks Mr. A for saying this.  I'm in awe of her.  Tal fan....peace out.

cc

Wow, thank you cc for including me in the list above...yikes.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: felix on September 10, 2009, 02:41 PM
For everybody who says big deal, I could have done that, etc.


Then why didn't you?



Because I was not allowed to play drums when I was a kidand my parents hated the thought of me ever being a drummer.   I got ZERO encouragement.  And ZERO help when I started out, from my parents or anybody. 

Sorry, my dad wasn't JoPo.  That's why.  Don't trash me cause I have an opinion.  Thanks. 

 

 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 10, 2009, 03:25 PM
Because I was not allowed to play drums when I was a kidand my parents hated the thought of me ever being a drummer.   I got ZERO encouragement.  And ZERO help when I started out, from my parents or anybody. 

Sorry, my dad wasn't JoPo.  That's why.  Don't trash me cause I have an opinion.  Thanks. 

 

 



Your parents didn't want you to be a drummer? Join the club. We've got jackets.

I'm not trashing you, but I am calling people out for dissing up-and-coming young drummers from the sidelines.

Seriously, man - excuses are easy. And we all have different obstacles to overcome - some of us more than others. But people from all walks of life, all talent levels, and all AGES have managed to succeed as drummers. Sure, some people seem to have more blessings. But having JoPo as a father didn't prevent Jeff Porcaro from dying in his 30s. It didn't guarantee a charmed life, did it?

I'm just saying it can be helpful to look for the good in other people's success, rather than envying or attacking it. The kind of people Tal is playing with don't NEED to play with people because they're young, or pretty, or whatever. So that makes me think this player probably brings something pretty special to the stage. Maybe she didn't dazzle you with her chops during that brief clip, but then again, would Keltner? Would Porcaro? No, they'd do what she did - play some stuff that sounded really good, and do it while showing a deep love for what they're doing.

Maybe seeing Tal will make more women get serious about an instrument that historically has been dominated by male players. I think that's a good thing. And I just don't see what is to be gained by taking risk-free potshots at somebody who's out there doing what she wants to do.

I don't want to fight with you, but I'm just not a big fan of "oh, poor me" excuses. Nobody I know got very far in music without some pretty serious challenges. So I won't assume Tal's life has been a cakewalk.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Jon E on September 10, 2009, 03:48 PM
This thread has sort of turned into a re-hash of the one about the French drummer/girl (I can't remember her name--sory, I'm lame).  There were a lot of "Yeah, she's OK but....." responses to her clips as well.

Maybe I'm just an old, crotchety man now (OK, scratch the "maybe"), but I just don't/can't spend a lot of time "tearing down" other people's talents.  I may not care for their talent, but I won't tear it down.  And, despite what some of you may thinking about your posts, they really DO come off as sounding sour-grapey and/or envious sometimes.  OH wait, sorry.  That might be your talent and I shouldn't tear it down.  8)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on September 13, 2009, 02:45 AM
Let's end this discussion or defer the discussion to bassplayercafe.com, ;) and back to VC?

René
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on September 13, 2009, 11:15 AM
she's really good. i first saw her playing on a jeff beck concert on tv..i'd love to get a chance to jam with her.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody...erm Tal anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on September 20, 2009, 10:52 PM
If any one is interested..I'm going to see Tal at Bass Player Live at SIR in Hollywood on the 24th of October.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 02:02 PM
Tal played with Chick Corea and Jeff Beck. That's the official Badge of Bad A** right there. When you get calls from people like that and ace the gig, your age is totally irrelevant at that point, IMO.

While true, she is an undeniably incredible talent. And she has some real guts as well, to play with monsters like those cats.

Not knocking her here.

To you and Mister A, I ask… you don't see any novelty motivation here?

Not even slightly?

Maybe my suspicious nature is at work, but I have to confess, seeing video of her playing with Jeff Beck the first time gave me the creepy feeling of seeing an aging rock star wanting to improve his image by lowering his band's average age by a few decades. A “youth vampire” move of sorts.

Call me cynical, but I’m not buying that her age / looks / gender had nothing to do with getting selected for that gig.

There are tons of young, old and middle aged talents out there that can handle that gig just as good, or better that aren’t the novelty she is.

Let the P.C. gender flame fest begin.  ::)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 02:19 PM
While true, she is an undeniably incredible talent. And she has some real guts as well, to play with monsters like those cats.

Not knocking her here.

To you and Mister A, I ask… you don't see any novelty motivation here?

Not even slightly?

Maybe my suspicious nature is at work, but I have to confess, seeing video of her playing with Jeff Beck the first time gave me the creepy feeling of seeing an aging rock star wanting to improve his image by lowering his band's average age by a few decades. A “youth vampire” move of sorts.

Call me cynical, but I’m not buying that her age / looks / gender had nothing to do with getting selected for that gig.

There are tons of young, old and middle aged talents out there that can handle that gig just as good, or better that aren’t the novelty she is.

Let the P.C. gender flame fest begin.  ::)



Age and looks often play a major role in people getting hired in entertainment. It's always been that way, and always will. It makes sense to take advantage of that when you can. I got work as a long-haired skinny guy in the 80s that a fat old bald guy wouldn't get. Was that wrong of me?

But here's a person who does not overtly exploit those aspects of her persona - she's not dressed up like a stripper, nor playing dumbed-down minimalist stuff. This ain't the drummer for the Go Gos - it's somebody who can hang with Jeff Beck and Vinnie.

And let me be blunt. I'm a smart, well-educated professional drummer, but Vinnie plays some stuff that utterly baffles me, to the point where I can't find "one." In other words, if I were a bass player at my current skill level on drums, I wouldn't be able to cut a fusion-oriented gig with Vinnie.

She can.

To me, that says it all.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 21, 2009, 02:34 PM
While true, she is an undeniably incredible talent. And she has some real guts as well, to play with monsters like those cats.

Not knocking her here.

To you and Mister A, I ask… you don't see any novelty motivation here?

Not even slightly?

Maybe my suspicious nature is at work, but I have to confess, seeing video of her playing with Jeff Beck the first time gave me the creepy feeling of seeing an aging rock star wanting to improve his image by lowering his band's average age by a few decades. A “youth vampire” move of sorts.

Call me cynical, but I’m not buying that her age / looks / gender had nothing to do with getting selected for that gig.

There are tons of young, old and middle aged talents out there that can handle that gig just as good, or better that aren’t the novelty she is.

Let the P.C. gender flame fest begin.  ::)


I'll up you one in the non-P.C.-ness and just note she's not very attractive. There's nothing about her on stage that is impressive except her playing.  I'm baffled how anyone can think she's getting gigs for her youth. What's the advantage? At the risk of sounding like a total pig, I wouldn't pay money to just go see her stand on stage. Her stage presence in general has zero dynamic -- she's kind of wooden.

The ONLY reason I even bring this up is I see no financial incentive to hire her as a novelty. What novelty? But she can play. She's not holding others back. She DOES draw a crowd of other bassists wanting to see her live because -- gosh -- she's got skills.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 02:46 PM
There's nothing about her on stage that is impressive except her playing. 

....

I wouldn't pay money to just go see her stand on stage. Her stage presence in general has zero dynamic -- she's kind of wooden.


She and Neil Peart share the same problem. Doesn't seem to be holding either of them back...   ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 02:47 PM

Age and looks often play a major role in people getting hired in entertainment. It's always been that way, and always will. It makes sense to take advantage of that when you can. I got work as a long-haired skinny guy in the 80s that a fat old bald guy wouldn't get. Was that wrong of me?

But here's a person who does not overtly exploit those aspects of her persona - she's not dressed up like a stripper, nor playing dumbed-down minimalist stuff. This ain't the drummer for the Go Gos - it's somebody who can hang with Jeff Beck and Vinnie.

And let me be blunt. I'm a smart, well-educated professional drummer, but Vinnie plays some stuff that utterly baffles me, to the point where I can't find "one." In other words, if I were a bass player at my current skill level on drums, I wouldn't be able to cut a gig with Vinnie.

She can.

To me, that says it all.


Hold on there cowboy. I’m in no way trying to minimize her talent or say that SHE is cashing in on her appearance. I think she’s an absolute prodigy. A really, really great player for her age.

Here’s my point.

There are lots of really great players out there. Lots and lots and lots and lots.

Was Stu Hamm too busy to take Jeff’s call? Bet not. Victor Wooten? Jeff Berlin? But those cats would be an obvious “peer” choice. And they can hang with Vinnie too. They know where the one is, for sure. But none would deliver extra appeal like that which Tal brings.

I smell a rat in the Beck management camp, not in Tal’s playing ability.

Like I said, call me cynical. I may be wrong. But knowing how shallow the music biz is, I doubt it.

Anyone have any interview material from Beck or Chick saying how or why they choose Tal?

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 21, 2009, 02:54 PM

Hold on there cowboy. I’m in no way trying to minimize her talent or say that SHE is cashing in on her appearance. I think she’s an absolute prodigy. A really, really great player for her age.

Here’s my point.

There are lots of really great players out there. Lots and lots and lots and lots.

Was Stu Hamm too busy to take Jeff’s call? Bet not. Victor Wooten? Jeff Berlin? But those cats would be an obvious “peer” choice. And they can hang with Vinnie too. They know where the one is, for sure. But none would deliver extra appeal like that which Tal brings.

I smell a rat in the Beck management camp, not in Tal’s playing ability.

Like I said, call me cynical. I may be wrong. But knowing how shallow the music biz is, I doubt it.

Anyone have any interview material from Beck or Chick saying how or why they choose Tal?



Seriously?

By that logic, Miles Davis should've hired Philly Jo instead of that 17-year-old punk for Seven Steps to Heaven. Whatever happened to that kid anyway?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 02:56 PM


I smell a rat in the Beck management camp, not in Tal’s playing ability.

Like I said, call me cynical. I may be wrong. But knowing how shallow the music biz is, I doubt it.

Anyone have any interview material from Beck or Chick saying how or why they choose Tal?




Is a person a "rat" for making a choice that may A) increase an act's demographic appeal, and/or B) save money?

Frankly, I bet she costs less to hire than Stu Hamm. Vinnie charges a lot for roadwork, because it takes him out of the studio. So Beck might choose a newbie over a bass legend, to help balance his touring costs. Don't forget, it's called the music business, which means people are trying to make a profit.

Really, where's the line between shrewd business person and rat?

And like it or not, things that are new are appealing to an audience. When Satriani broke out, there was no shortage of great guitar players. Yet Mick Jagger hired him to add some new juice to his band, because he was the hot new thing. Just like David Lee Roth did with Steve Vai when DLR first formed his own group.

Like the mafia says, it's not personal; it's just business.

In a few years Tal will not be the latest thing. Right now she is, and it makes sense for her - and for the acts that hire her - to take advantage of her situation while they can. It's just business.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 21, 2009, 03:01 PM

Is a person a "rat" for making a choice that may A) increase an act's demographic appeal, and/or B) save money?

Jazz artists have a long, long, long history (like since it became a commercial entity) of hiring young up-and-comers specifically because the established artists cost too much. Virtually every great bopper started out at scale scrapping together pennies so they could go form their own group and make some money. That's how it works in jazz. That's how it's always worked in jazz, even when times were good to that music, but especially in this age where it has limited financial potential.

But that's not an indictment on the players. Without that system we never would have heard of Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Tony Williams, etc. etc.

Maybe more importantly, Miles Davis set the standard: Never go stagnant, avoid keeping the same line up for too long, always be looking for fresh players to play with because they're going to bring some new to your music.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 03:49 PM
Seriously?

By that logic, Miles Davis should've hired Philly Jo instead of that 17-year-old punk for Seven Steps to Heaven. Whatever happened to that kid anyway?

Okay… Okay… Turning a tad bit nasty, aren’t we?

Can we keep it civil?

And if we are remaining in the real world here, Tony was obviously a guy. Not the incredible rarity that Tal is, in being both super young AND female. Especially in the fusion world.

Age notwithstanding, how many females can you even name who are suddenly in an upper echelon group like Beck’s or Chick’s? And out of the blue?

Let’s keep things apples to apples, shall we?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 04:00 PM

Is a person a "rat" for making a choice that may A) increase an act's demographic appeal, and/or B) save money?

Frankly, I bet she costs less to hire than Stu Hamm. Vinnie charges a lot for roadwork, because it takes him out of the studio. So Beck might choose a newbie over a bass legend, to help balance his touring costs. Don't forget, it's called the music business, which means people are trying to make a profit.

Really, where's the line between shrewd business person and rat?

And like it or not, things that are new are appealing to an audience. When Satriani broke out, there was no shortage of great guitar players. Yet Mick Jagger hired him to add some new juice to his band, because he was the hot new thing. Just like David Lee Roth did with Steve Vai when DLR first formed his own group.

Like the mafia says, it's not personal; it's just business.

In a few years Tal will not be the latest thing. Right now she is, and it makes sense for her - and for the acts that hire her - to take advantage of her situation while they can. It's just business.

Who did I call a rat?

You misread I’m afraid. I said I smelled a rat. Very different.

Let me help…

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/smell+a+rat

Re: “the mafia”…?

Well, not known for their ethics either. Supporting my argument. :)

Of course it’s a business. Hence, the idea of draw from a young, pretty (despite Gaddabout’s view) anomaly of a player like Tal was no mistake.


That’s all I’m saying.

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 04:01 PM
Age notwithstanding, how many females can you even name who are suddenly in an upper echelon group like Beck’s or Chick’s? And out of the blue?


The longer we keep treating being female as a "novelty," the longer it will be one. Here's a solid, dedicated, non-flashy, non-sexy female bass player making waves with some of the best musicians in the world.

How about just being happy for her?

How about hoping that she inspires other young people - female and male - to explore the challenge of improvisational music?

Or is it easier to minimize her accomplishments - which have eclipsed our own - by singling her out as a "novelty," and referring to the people who hire her as "rats?"  (speaking of being a tad nasty...)

It's your call. Me, I'm happy for her.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 21, 2009, 04:06 PM
Not the incredible rarity that Tal is, in being both super young AND female. Especially in the fusion world.

Age notwithstanding, how many females can you even name who are suddenly in an upper echelon group like Beck’s or Chick’s? And out of the blue?

I think that's the conversation ender right there. Sorry Christopher, but I find this perspective offensive. And I'm not a very sensitive fellow.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 04:08 PM
I'm all about the idea of instead of complaining about a problem, offer a solution for those problems.

Christopher, what is your problem with her? That Stu Hamm didn't get her job? How is a new player supposed to get a chance if nobody hires them? You've said yourself that she's a great player. So what's the freaking problem? Does she have to wait until Stu retires? Then will she be old enough to "deserve" the gig? What's your solution?

Like Gaddabout pointed out, the business has a longstanding tradition of hot young players bursting on the scene. People like Tony. Like Weckl. Hell, like Vinnie himself. And now, like Tal.

So it really seems that your only problem is that she's female. And that just doesn't seem cool. And it doesn't seem like you.

Show me how I'm wrong, because I hope I am. But I gotta say, right now it just looks like you're mad that a young female is getting good gigs that typically went to male musicians. Come on, folks - aren't we past that?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Dave Heim on September 21, 2009, 04:11 PM

Age notwithstanding, how many females can you even name who are suddenly in an upper echelon group like Beck’s or Chick’s? And out of the blue?


Ruth Underwood with Zappa.  She was 23 when she started playing w/Zappa.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 04:16 PM
I think that's the conversation ender right there. Sorry Christopher, but I find this perspective offensive. And I'm not a very sensitive fellow.

???

How in the world is that offensive?

Pointing out that there has been not very many female players in top fusion groups? And especially young female players.

And that I don't buy that Beck was blind to that fact.

Please explain if you would.

How are you offended?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 04:22 PM

And that I don't buy that Beck was blind to that fact.

No bandleader is blind to what his bandmembers look like. (no Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder jokes, please)

Seriously - so what? He hired somebody young. Somebody you admit is a great player. And - gasp - she's female.

So what?

Why is that a problem?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 04:30 PM
I'm all about the idea of instead of complaining about a problem, offer a solution for those problems.

Christopher, what is your problem with her? That Stu Hamm didn't get her job? How is a new player supposed to get a chance if nobody hires them? You've said yourself that she's a great player. So what's the freaking problem? Does she have to wait until Stu retires? Then will she be old enough to "deserve" the gig? What's your solution?

Like Gaddabout pointed out, the business has a longstanding tradition of hot young players bursting on the scene. People like Tony. Like Weckl. Hell, like Vinnie himself. And now, like Tal.

So it really seems that your only problem is that she's female. And that just doesn't seem cool. And it doesn't seem like you.

Show me how I'm wrong, because I hope I am. But I gotta say, right now it just looks like you're mad that a young female is getting good gigs that typically went to male musicians. Come on, folks - aren't we past that?



Am I still on planet earth here?

Are you guys seriously saying that you did not notice the fact that Tal was young and female, and very not the norm in such a group when you first saw her?



Again, I have no problem with Tal.

I have no problem that she is a slammin’ player.

I have no problem that she is young.

I have no problem she is a she.

I have no problem that she is (in some people’s view), potentially attractive. (…at least far more attractive to the overwhelmingly male audience that digs the type of music we’re talking about. Much more than a grizzled, old road dog of a bass player who normally assumes the role in such bands).


I am merely saying that I would not be surprised if Beck and/or Chick saw the marketability in her appearance and gender, and capitalized on it.

That's it.

Take it easy guys... will ya? :)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 04:38 PM

I am merely saying that I would not be surprised if Beck and/or Chick saw the marketability in her appearance and gender, and capitalized on it.


And why shouldn't they?

Or more to the point, what should they do instead?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 21, 2009, 04:45 PM
I guess I'd only say if you were a "young Chick" trying to gain position in the industry because of your ability and not your gender you'd be more sensitive about the topic and understand why some get a little offended by your suggestion. 

I would encourage any of you to spend some time at the other forums and plug my name in the search field.  Look at what some of the posters say about me.  It's quite offensive and often times has nothing to do with my ability to drum.  I've never been one to jump on this band wagon and I don't intend on ever making it a huge deal or determining factor in decision making, but I will tell you that it leaves me wondering what these guys are thinking.

I have NO issues with constructive criticism, as a matter of fact I welcome it. I'm only 19 and have so much to learn...but the fact that I'm wearing braces or other features of my body really have nothing to do with how I play.  Why should they be brought up in a forum about drumming?  Because I'm a "Young Chick" who gets everything???  LOL

I NEVER want a gig because of the way I look, my age or my gender.  I don't think Tal would either.  There are way to many positives about Tal as a player to get so hung up on young and female.  She gets the job done....period.

Some things just are never going to change.  I certainly hope that the opportunities that I have been blessed with, as well as future opportunities are based on my merit as a musician not as a "Young Chick"...

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: dizz on September 21, 2009, 05:27 PM
It is what it is. 

She is a young girl
She is a great player
She is advancing her career
She is unique

I hope she stays true to what makes her a she and not try to be something she isn't.  I don't see novelty, I see a pioneer who is being hoisted by veterans who frankly know things noone here knows.  After all, she can technically play the gig.  She wasn't hired to shake a leg as a sideman.  I'd think Beck and Vinny find it rewarding playing with and helping promote any young pioneering talent.  This one happens to be a young woman.

It is what it is.  She is unique and that certainly helps in this competitive industry.  But look guys she can hang regardless. 



Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 21, 2009, 06:16 PM
Please explain if you would.

How are you offended?

Your primary complaint seems to be the fact that she's a woman. Not that she's not talented or that she doesn't deserve the gig based on her skill. She's just a woman, and that seems to darken your day.

 ???

Color me dazzled. I guess. Or something. If Tal were, say, Tim, with the same skill and talent, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. This doesn't seem a bit ... 1950s to you?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 06:53 PM
If Tal were, say, Tim, with the same skill and talent, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. This doesn't seem a bit ... 1950s to you?

Nailed it. THAT is the question you need to ask yourself, Christopher. You've admitted she's a great player.

So would you be blaming marketing, the industry, and "rats" if Tal were Tim?

If not, you may want to reexamine your thinking, and see if it really belongs in this century.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 08:11 PM
I guess I'd only say if you were a "young Chick" trying to gain position in the industry because of your ability and not your gender you'd be more sensitive about the topic and understand why some get a little offended by your suggestion. 

I would encourage any of you to spend some time at the other forums and plug my name in the search field.  Look at what some of the posters say about me.  It's quite offensive and often times has nothing to do with my ability to drum.  I've never been one to jump on this band wagon and I don't intend on ever making it a huge deal or determining factor in decision making, but I will tell you that it leaves me wondering what these guys are thinking.

I have NO issues with constructive criticism, as a matter of fact I welcome it. I'm only 19 and have so much to learn...but the fact that I'm wearing braces or other features of my body really have nothing to do with how I play.  Why should they be brought up in a forum about drumming?  Because I'm a "Young Chick" who gets everything???  LOL

I NEVER want a gig because of the way I look, my age or my gender.  I don't think Tal would either.  There are way to many positives about Tal as a player to get so hung up on young and female.  She gets the job done....period.

Some things just are never going to change.  I certainly hope that the opportunities that I have been blessed with, as well as future opportunities are based on my merit as a musician not as a "Young Chick"...

Hannah

Hannah, please don’t take my remarks as anything negative towards you or what you’re trying to accomplish.

What you are doing is to be admired. It can’t be easy, and I can’t say I would have the same determination.

What you’re experiencing on other boards is the kind of thing that my question is trying to potentially expose. But, on a higher level.

The band leaders undoubtedly know that those types of attitudes exist, and may even share them themselves. I don’t know.

Are they trying to capitalize on those attitudes for profit?

If they are, I call foul. Just bringing that question to light.

Maybe you can help explain to these gents better than I.

I don’t seem to be doing a very good job getting that point across to them.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 21, 2009, 08:24 PM
Christopher, IMHO you did not mean anything offensive...at least I did not take it that way.

What I wanted to point out is why this can be a touchy subject and how even the suggestion that a musician got a part or a gig is because they're a "Young Chick" is enough to start an emotional roller coaster.  As I've already stated, I DO NOT want any special treatment.  By the same token I do not want to be trashed either.  Thank GOD we can have these discussions and others here at the DC with some class.

I guess we (Young Chicks) just can't help but to be looked at differently in what is predominately a man's world.  I think that's unfortunate but I'm also smart enough to choose my battles.

Thank you for taking the time more than once during this thread to make us all understand.

No hard feelings... ;)

Hannah
Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 08:33 PM
Christopher, IMHO you did not mean anything offensive...at least I did not take it that way.

What I wanted to point out is why this can be a touchy subject and how even the suggestion that a musician got a part or a gig is because they're a "Young Chick" is enough to start an emotional roller coaster.

Good deal.

And for the record, the only time I mentioned the word Chick was in naming Chick Corea.

:)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 21, 2009, 08:51 PM
Good deal.

And for the record, the only time I mentioned the word Chick was in naming Chick Corea.

:)

Noted...  :)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 21, 2009, 10:06 PM

The band leaders undoubtedly know that those types of attitudes exist, and may even share them themselves. I don’t know.

Are they trying to capitalize on those attitudes for profit?

If they are, I call foul.

What's the foul?

Any smart businessperson capitalizes on their assets. If one player is going to attract more attention than another, why not hire that player, all other things being equal? This is a VERY competitive business. Given two equally good players who charge the same fees, the smart bandleader chooses the one who brings the most to the table, whether it's looks, fame, showmanship, gender, race (I'm being blunt here: it's a reality that sometimes a person's race gives then an advantage, if the bandleader wants a certain look), or any other factor. It makes sense for the bandleader to try to get the most bang for the buck. I've twice been replaced on records by drummers who were more famous than me, because the bandleader thought having their name on the record would sell more units. And both times, the drummer played the parts I had come up with, almost verbatim. That's showbiz, baby.

But I submit that currently female instrumentalists face FAR more obstacles than advantages, so I see nothing wrong with them taking whatever few advantages may present themselves, at least until people stop paying attention to their gender and instead focus on their playing. And that's only going to happen if people keep hiring females, like Beck and Corea did.

I'm sure Hannah can tell you - I bet the most annoying compliment she gets is that she plays great - for a girl.  >:( That's a frustration you'll never know, but Gaddy and me are trying to wake you up to its reality. Because even now, you're perpetuating that mindset. Even now, faced with a young player who you admit is strong enough for the monster gigs she's getting, you're implying she somehow doesn't deserve those gigs, because she might have been hired for what you think are the wrong reasons. Even though you admit she is a strong enough player.  WTF? How can somebody satisfy this kind of thinking, unless he's male?

But let's follow through on your "foul" claim. If this is indeed a foul on the part of the bandleaders or managers, what should they do instead? 

NOT hire Tal, for fear of being perceived as exploiting this attitude? Only hire males, because then there would be no threat of being perceived as hiring "novelty" players?" What purpose does that serve? Man, that makes the bandleader vulnerable to an endless loop of second-guessing. And the only way to rise above that is to simply hire whoever they want, with no regard for how people like you might perceive it. Which might be exactly what they did in this instance.

Seriously, Christopher, think this through. If Beck and Corea are committing a foul, what should they do instead?

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Christopher on September 21, 2009, 10:57 PM
I guess it’s an unanswerable question, as we don’t have enough data. Because we don’t know why they hired her. And never will I suppose.

If it was truly on her musicianship, (and innocent stage presence type stuff). Hey, my suspicions are unfounded, and I’ll be more than happy to apologize to Mr. Beck and Mr. Corea. And Tal, and whoever the heck else was offended. Line ‘em up. I’m not always right. And not afraid to admit when I’m wrong.

But if we were to learn that it was, “yeah, there were better players around, but Tal was good enough, and such a (insert offensive comment of your own)" then I’d say… that was a sleazy move, disrespectful to Tal, and they should be ashamed.

Just raising the question.

Mostly, because to my knowledge, it’s unprecedented.

Never before has anything like that happened.

And I don’t know about you, but when something unprecedented happens, I like to take notice. And ask questions.

Why hasn’t another very young female been chosen by fusion royalty to play in a small group setting before? Why now? What was the motivation? Is she the only one on the planet since the invention of fusion that could hang? If so, okay then. I find that hard to believe though.

I dig seeing her play with these guys. I’m just hoping she’s there for the right reasons.

Cool to leave it at that?

I’ve been far too much of a distraction from the thread already.

Back to discussing the force of nature that is, VINNIE?

 ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Norris on September 21, 2009, 11:32 PM
I'm almost afraid to wake the sleeping dog, but I have to chime in that many of the great jazzers brought up young prodigies and gave them their chance to shine.  Miles was at the top of that list.  Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, Tony, Coltrane and a slew of others got their big breaks from him.  Herbie and especially Chick have been doing that since the 70's. 

In Christopher's defense, it is odd to look back and see very few if any females be brought up like this, but it just is what it is.  I do remember Beck bringing up a brother and sister combo (I think the boy played drums and the girl played bass) not too long ago too.  Same kind of deal. Great talent that needs to be heard and Beck sees himself as a mentor or something. 

I know I love to find people and get them started into drumming and I take great pride in "passing a long the passion of drumming" to them.  It's almost like "giving back" to the art form.  Beck and Chick etc. do that but to a much much greater magnitude. 
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 22, 2009, 12:08 AM
I'll just rest on a baseball story:

Jackie Robinson was probably not the best black baseball player of his day. Or possibly not even in the top 3. But he was the right man for the job when they picked him to be the first African-American in the major leagues. He was also called a novelty -- suggesting he was taking the position of a better white player -- but the guy was a career .311 hitter, including a phenomenal 1949 when he hit .342, drove in 124 runs, and stole 37 bases. Robinson was actually very good, and for a few special years, amazing. Not only did he belong, but he was capable of excelling.

Who cares why Tal was hired? She belongs. And she's capable of excelling.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Crigger on September 22, 2009, 01:53 AM
Wow - I find this whole discussion about Tal so depressing.

And I'm sorry, but these "questions" that seemingly "have to be raised" would never be raised if Tal was a guy.  No "he" would be that amazing young hotshot fresh out of Berklee. or high school, or whatever like Tony Williams, Al DiMeola, half the guys in all the big bands in the 70's, Bozzio w/Zappa, and on and on.

This IS the center of the successful jazz player's business model - land a prominent a gig for lousy money, gain exposure, learn the ropes, branch out on your own, hire young guys needing exposure and experience who are willing to work for lousy money, so you can finally make some money. And repeat and repeat.

There is always a more experienced player that doesn't get each and every one of those gigs - and while the lousy money factor is essential, there is also the young player's energy, fresh approach and lack of cynicism. These are very appealing factors as well.

As far as "did the most qualified player get the job"? Do we ever know the answer to that? I don't think so. Gigs come about by reputation, relationships, qualifications, experience, does the leader like your playing?, has the leader been exposed enough to your playing to know whether they like it or not?, and on and on.

But... again we wouldn't be discussing any of this if Tal was a guy.

Her playing is stunning... everything else is secondary. Whatever everything else...IT IS STILL SECONDARY. That's the same yardstick we've applied with young male hotshots since the beginning of the last century...

... if the "young hotshot" is being sold as a "young hotshot", but the playing is just ho-hum, then the whole thing is called out as BS. But if the playing smokes, then kudos to the veteran bandleader for introducing a new talent on a promising career.

Almost every jazz record in my sizable collection has a story like that attached to it in some form or another.

For the life of me, I can't fathom measuring the launch of Tal's career by a different yardstick simply because she's a girl.

David
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 22, 2009, 07:57 AM

Mostly, because to my knowledge, it’s unprecedented.

Never before has anything like that happened.


Rare, but not unprecedented. Terry Lynne Carrington and Cindy Blackman come to mind.

But the biggest reason it's rare is because virtuoso female instrumentalists are still pretty rare on certain instruments, like drums or bass. Somebody's got to break that barrier, and we're seeing the pioneers.

And guess what? Those pioneers do NOT have it easy. Because in addition to getting good enough to play with the pros, they ALSO have to rise above thinking like yours. And the more they do that, the less rare it will be to see virtuoso female drummers, bassists, etc., and this problem will eventually go away.

But we can help. Only when people's thinking shifts, and it stops being a big deal to be female in a historically male field - or a black man in a historically  white field - or whatever, will we actually achieve the much-touted equality that we like to preach about here in the US. And that change of thinking starts at the individual level. Each of us has the opportunity to facilitate that change, or to stand in its way, simply by how we think.

Christopher, you can celebrate and promote the success of somebody like Tal, or you can undermine it, and continue to make it more difficult for female instrumentalists to be taken seriously, simply because the scarcity of females playing certain instruments makes you cynical about the success of those who do.

It's your call.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 23, 2009, 11:32 AM
I'm certainly NO Vinnie...there's only one, however if "I" got the call to perform and/or tour with Jeff Beck, I'd be so gone. lol

Thank goodness there are some established and well respected artists that are willing to take some stock in new to the scene, young and somewhat controversial players.

I can only hope that someone takes that chance someday on a girl drummer from Chicago and doesn't let the stereotypical ways of the world keep them from giving the right person the job.

And yes Mr. A, I hear it all the time..."You're a good drummer for a girl" "You're my favorite girl drummer"  "You're one of the best girl drummers in the area"  There's even a local Rock Club that I play on a regular basis that bills me as "One of Chicago's Best GIRL Drummers"....

Again I've learned to pick my battles, but WHY can't I just be a good or bad DRUMMER?

In all fairness I don't believe Christopher meant to cause such a stir on this subject and I sincerely don't believe he meant anything disrespectful to me personally, however this is becoming more and more a topic that's going to cause that stir every time until we get some level ground. 

Considering the way most forums dog me now....can you imagine what would happen if I did get a high profile gig??  WOW....

On that note...I LOVE my DC family.

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 23, 2009, 12:11 PM
In all fairness I don't believe Christopher meant to cause such a stir on this subject and I sincerely don't believe he meant anything disrespectful to me personally

Oh, I agree. I've known Christopher for years - he is a great guy, and I know he meant no disrespect to you, or to anybody in this thread.

That said, I chose to keep pursuing and challenging the points he was making, because he's a case in point: a well-intentioned, intelligent guy who doesn't realize that he's helping to perpetuate a very limiting and damaging mindset towards people like you.

I'm not trying to beat Christopher up. I'm trying to wake him up. Big difference.

But I fear I've not succeeded, and have only offended him. If that's the case, I'm sorry, but I stand by my posts. It's time to change our thinking, and change can cause some ruffled feathers.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Jon E on September 23, 2009, 01:26 PM
Quote
There's even a local Rock Club that I play on a regular basis that bills me as "One of Chicago's Best GIRL Drummers"....

I feel ya.  I'm often billed as "One of Orlando's Best CRAPPY Drummers".  :P

PS: everone please add my friend Jennie Hoeft to your list of great drummers (I will not mention if she is a boy or a girl).  ;)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: NY Frank on September 23, 2009, 06:51 PM
I feel ya.  I'm often billed as "One of Orlando's Best CRAPPY Drummers".  :P

I get that in my region, but they keep leaving out the  Best   part.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on September 23, 2009, 07:16 PM
I'm more ducked than billed.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Stewart Manley on September 24, 2009, 05:50 AM
Well, I'm late to this party. But having had the great good fortune to meet Christopher and (as the father of three talented daughters) feeling just as strongly about this subject as anyone, I feel compelled to say that I think the most he's guilty of here is an unfortunate expression of his cynicism about the motives of some of the people involved. An awful lot seems to have been extrapolated from that - none of which I actually saw Christopher say. Are we saying that just giving voice to the possibility of it being a factor perpetuates the stereotype? I hope not, otherwise any acknowledgment of its existence or discussion about it (including a chunk of this thread) seems to be potentially guilty of the same thing. And you don't right wrongs by pretending they don't exist.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Mister Acrolite on September 24, 2009, 08:10 AM
Well, I'm late to this party. But having had the great good fortune to meet Christopher and (as the father of three talented daughters) feeling just as strongly about this subject as anyone, I feel compelled to say that I think the most he's guilty of here is an unfortunate expression of his cynicism about the motives of some of the people involved. An awful lot seems to have been extrapolated from that - none of which I actually saw Christopher say. Are we saying that just giving voice to the possibility of it being a factor perpetuates the stereotype? I hope not, otherwise any acknowledgment of its existence or discussion about it (including a chunk of this thread) seems to be potentially guilty of the same thing. And you don't right wrongs by pretending they don't exist.

Yeah, but follow through on this "perpetuate the stereotype" thing. What stereotype is Tal banking on? She's young. So was Vinnie when Zappa hired him. So was Weckl when Paul Simon hired him. Nobody said "I bet those guys just got hired because they're young." Why? Because they could PLAY.

Oh, but Tal is also female. But so what? How is she banking on that? She's not dressing up like a tramp. She looks like your basic fusion-playing nerd - like Vinnie, but - gasp - she has boobs. And as everybody has observed - SHE CAN PLAY.

Given all that, what basis do you have for undermining the reasons she got hired? And again, what ELSE are bandleaders supposed to do? Wait until she's old, so there's no threat of being accused of hiring the young (sorry Tony)? Not hire her ever, to avoid the threat of being accused of hiring somebody for whatever sex appeal you attribute to anybody who's female? Where does that thinking lead?

Folks, if she couldn't play, and dressed like Britney Spears, you'd have reason to be cynical. But she CAN play, so to second-guess why she got hired is an insult to the dedication and hard work that it took to get good enough to play with Jeff Freaking Beck, a guy who so far has not been calling me or you with job offers.

If Tal was a guy, we'd be all excited about the new kid in town, like we were when Vinnie and Weckl and Bill Stewart arrived on the scene.

But noooooooo, Tal has boobs. So she's probably just getting hired because of the boobs.  ::)

That's BS, folks. Plain and simple.

And it's particularly disrespectful coming from a bunch of people with some insight into how hard it is to achieve a high level of musical proficiency.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: NY Frank on September 24, 2009, 07:38 PM
My unsolicited two cents:

If there is any out-of-the-ordinary noticing of Tal, it's not because she's a lady - it's because she's young and playing at a level above what one would expect for a person her age.  That's it.   The fact that she's a
lady/has boobs/might be cute - is irrelevant.

She's not getting the gigs because she's a lady.  She's getting the gigs because she's young and - really good and deserving.

Period.

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Robyn on September 25, 2009, 12:15 PM
This thread has taken a curious turn.  It's been interesting growing up female and watching the world change a bit thru the years. Not much, but a bit.  There are things that women can't do as well as men--generally those things that require a lot of muscle/physical strength.  But things like shooting guns, playing drums or bass, driving a bulldozer at a construction site, or jockeying a racehorse have absolutely no bearing on gender.  It's nice to not only see women realizing this fact, but that men are tending more to support it.  Thanks to those of you who do.  I think the young bassist's playing is superb, and for guys like Vinnie who have pretty much reached the pinnacle, I can't imagine a more satisfying thing than to find and help promote a young talent who otherwise might not get that break.  I can tell you from personal experience what an incredible trip it is to have something that a kid wants and dreams of, and be in a position to share that with the kid and help realize his/her dream.  That sort of feeling cannot be bought.

Hannah, you continue to make me proud w/ your insightful, mature comments.  I'm glad that you've learned to deal with the negativity and sexist remarks (that will inevitably dog you for the rest of your life, unfortunately), and learned to dump all that in the "Big F***ing Deal" file.  Your professionalism and hard-working attitude will take you much farther in life than the clods on the Pearl forum.

robyn
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 25, 2009, 01:44 PM
This thread has taken a curious turn.  It's been interesting growing up female and watching the world change a bit thru the years. Not much, but a bit.  There are things that women can't do as well as men--generally those things that require a lot of muscle/physical strength.  But things like shooting guns, playing drums or bass, driving a bulldozer at a construction site, or jockeying a racehorse have absolutely no bearing on gender.  It's nice to not only see women realizing this fact, but that men are tending more to support it.  Thanks to those of you who do.  I think the young bassist's playing is superb, and for guys like Vinnie who have pretty much reached the pinnacle, I can't imagine a more satisfying thing than to find and help promote a young talent who otherwise might not get that break.  I can tell you from personal experience what an incredible trip it is to have something that a kid wants and dreams of, and be in a position to share that with the kid and help realize his/her dream.  That sort of feeling cannot be bought.

Hannah, you continue to make me proud w/ your insightful, mature comments.  I'm glad that you've learned to deal with the negativity and sexist remarks (that will inevitably dog you for the rest of your life, unfortunately), and learned to dump all that in the "Big F***ing Deal" file.  Your professionalism and hard-working attitude will take you much farther in life than the clods on the Pearl forum.

robyn

Thank you Robyn....(tear)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chip Donaho on September 25, 2009, 02:09 PM
Thank you Robyn....
Yes, I'll second that, well said.  8)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: DoubleC on September 25, 2009, 09:59 PM
I'm certainly NO Vinnie...there's only one, however if "I" got the call to perform and/or tour with Jeff Beck, I'd be so gone. lol

Thank goodness there are some established and well respected artists that are willing to take some stock in new to the scene, young and somewhat controversial players.

I can only hope that someone takes that chance someday on a girl drummer from Chicago and doesn't let the stereotypical ways of the world keep them from giving the right person the job.

And yes Mr. A, I hear it all the time..."You're a good drummer for a girl" "You're my favorite girl drummer"  "You're one of the best girl drummers in the area"  There's even a local Rock Club that I play on a regular basis that bills me as "One of Chicago's Best GIRL Drummers"....

Again I've learned to pick my battles, but WHY can't I just be a good or bad DRUMMER?

In all fairness I don't believe Christopher meant to cause such a stir on this subject and I sincerely don't believe he meant anything disrespectful to me personally, however this is becoming more and more a topic that's going to cause that stir every time until we get some level ground. 

Considering the way most forums dog me now....can you imagine what would happen if I did get a high profile gig??  WOW....

On that note...I LOVE my DC family.

Hannah

Wow......you're so cool Hannah.  With this type of attitude, with all that's been said (especially on the Pearl forum) about you, you'll be getting some awesome gigs.   

Let's not forget maybe part of the reason Tal got the gig was simply the fact that she had a great attitude, she was easy to work with and easy to get along with on the road.

cc
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on September 25, 2009, 10:16 PM
Thanks CC...I sure hope your right.

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on October 01, 2009, 03:34 AM
Thanks to a friend, I know own the Jeff Beck DVD. It's AMAZING. Some thoughts:

- Vinnie is probably the least video'd drummer of his status. I was trying to think how often he's been captured on camera. There's the Zappa stuff. There's his time with Sting (Soul Cages tour! Wahoo!). And there's this. It's all I could think of. Other than Soul Cages, this is by far the best Vinnie on video that I know of. He was channeling his inner Billy Cobham for this one.

- There were so many notable guitarists in the audience it was comical.

- Jeff Beck answers the questions here about how Tal got the job. According to him, Vinnie is the one who discovered her. He was in the studio when the door cracked open and he heard this bassist. He walked out and saw Tal, thinking she was someone's girlfriend or sister. She said, "Hi, I'm Tal, I play bass," and Vinnie's association with her began that day. When Pino Paladino became unavailable, Vinnie recommended Tal -- with Pino's implicit approval. Beck thought it was a joke (said she looked like she was 12) but when she played he thought, "It was like Jaco." He said the band was so tight they had the entire first set squared away in about 10 minutes.

If you don't own it and you're a Vinnie fan, be ashamed of yourself then go get it.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on October 01, 2009, 10:45 AM
NICE...thanks Gaddy.

I had a conversation with my A/R Manager at Gretsch yesterday and she was talking to me about my attitude regarding hype, exposure etc and how well she thought I was handling things, positive and negative. Among others, Vinnie came up and she went on to explain that Vinnie does not like being in the spot light too much with regards to public appearances, pics, videos etc.  He just wants to make music. Very down to earth.  She went on to explain that Tal is the same way. Very laid back, down to earth and ate up with the desire to make wonderful music.

Now that's the ticket....

Hannah

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Steve Phelps (Shoeless) on October 01, 2009, 10:53 AM
Never heard this brought up about the kids Belew is playing with:
 http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/Adrian+Belew+Power+Trio+Young+lions+play/1956012/story.html]http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/Adrian+Belew+Power+Trio+Young+lions+play/1956012/story.html
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on October 04, 2009, 12:09 PM
Well saw this music video yesterday on TV. Praise Youtube ... so I could post it here. An attractive singer... btw. Did Herby picked her cause of her looks. Don't think so. Who is the bass player .....  ;)

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuHKxjlamQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIuHKxjlamQ



René
ps enjoy the music

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: eardrum on October 05, 2009, 12:06 AM
....
ps enjoy the music


Thanks, I did very much!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on October 29, 2009, 07:16 PM
Sting is on Letterman tonight..any idea who's playing drums?
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: dizz on October 29, 2009, 08:15 PM
I saw that.  Sting did some song that made me think, X-mas album.  Not sure if he did more than one song, but the one he did was sort of folky and had some fiddles jamming and ad libbing.  

The drummer played bass drum and some type of 16th note pattern on some kind of aux percussion -like a tambourine or shaker or something.  That was it, 1 kick drum and 1 aux percussion instrument.

Music was very simple when you consider it was Sting playing it, but I think his goal was to make some gathering / celebration / holiday music.  I think the tune was called Soul Cake.  Even though it was simple, Sting was still able to have his usual twist incorporated in it.

This was no Vinny material

PS Doug, I really enjoyed reading your article on Cruisin'  Thanks a lot for that!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Chip Donaho on October 31, 2009, 12:40 PM
I seen Sting tonight on TV. The drummer was just using a bass drum and tamborine.  8)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Nathan Cartier on October 31, 2009, 02:10 PM
I seen Sting tonight on TV. The drummer was just using a bass drum and tamborine.  8)

The guy did just get off tour with Stew Copeland, he's probably dying for a little breathing room in the rhythm department.   8)
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on January 29, 2010, 02:49 PM
We had "the against the clock" discussion in this threat. "Those who are ready for the next level", check out this transcription of Vinnie's solo in "the attack of the 20lb pizza".

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/vinniecolaiutasoloslowmotion.html.

The fun part is that you now can actually understand what he was playing.

"Anybody dance ?" (FZ)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on February 09, 2010, 04:37 PM
Hey can someone please tell me what time signature, Love is Stronger Then Justice is in? I'm hearing 7/4, but other people are telling me its 7/8, and others are saying 6/8. When I count it i am counting 2-2-3, or just 1234567. if it was in in 7/8 wouldn't it be 123456sev? and i dont hear how it could be 6/8 at all.

and also, what is that beat he does every third bard in the 7/4 section?it sounds like he plays it faster than the main beat or something. what would that be considered? metric modulation?

thanks guys.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Crigger on February 10, 2010, 03:04 AM
Hey can someone please tell me what time signature, Love is Stronger Then Justice is in? I'm hearing 7/4, but other people are telling me its 7/8, and others are saying 6/8. When I count it i am counting 2-2-3, or just 1234567. if it was in in 7/8 wouldn't it be 123456sev? and i dont hear how it could be 6/8 at all.

and also, what is that beat he does every third bard in the 7/4 section?it sounds like he plays it faster than the main beat or something. what would that be considered? metric modulation?

thanks guys.

Well you're right, it's not 6/8.

I don't want to make a huge distinction between something being in 7/4 versus 7/8, because technically they are one and the same - defined only by their context. Meaning any groove that can be played in 7/8 can be played in 7/4 and will sound the same as long as the tempo is twice as fast. And vice versa. In other words, the top number of the time signature has an absolute meaning. While the bottom number is chosen in deference to traditions, notational context, etc.

That all being said, as far as I'm concerned this piece is in 7/4 - a fast 7/4 at about 164 bpm. Meaning the main groove - bars one and two - are a half-time groove. Vinnie is playing back beats on beats 3 and 7.

Why 7/4? Well, the dead give away for me is the 3rd bar (and 7th bar) of that intro section you mention - or rather Vinnie's interpretation of the 3rd bar. He plays a "straight as can be" 7/4 rock groove in those 3rd and 7th bars - backbeat on 2, 4 and 6. Giving us a peek at the song's true tempo - and making the half-time even feel more like a half-time feel as a result.

Notice he hardly plays anything on beat 7 of those bars. This gives the snare drum on beat 6 a very strong half note feeling. The perfect 1/2 note feeling you would want in a backbeat leading back into a halftime section... which of course, is where he returns on bars 4 and 8.

Then of course, the same fast tempo continues into the 4/4 section for the chorus. There is no double time change of tempo at the chorus IMO - just a feeling of leaving the half time feel behind as the chorus begins to play in the real feel and tempo that has been there throughout. And we're able to feel this as being natural, partially because Vinnie hinted to us in those 3rd and 7th bars what the real tempo of this piece was from the beginning. 160ish, not 80ish.

That piece is one of my favorite "introduction to odd meters" pieces of recent years. All of Sting's odd meter works have been good that way. Though as I've posted before, if you want to really learn how odd meters work on the drum set - there is no better place to start than with Ralph Humphrey's trail blazing work with the Don Ellis Band in the early 70's. Vinnie's work with Sting, Rush, Mahavishnu, all of it - it all perfectly relates back to Ralph with Ellis IMO.

Hope that helps,

David
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on February 10, 2010, 05:54 AM
Don't know why I think I can follow David's perfect response. Just wanted to point out the obvious that the chorus is in 4/4, and it's one of my favorite Sting choruses ever. I also love the pickup-notes back into the intro/verse. They're just so strong and unapologetic back into 7 and they make so much sense.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Erk on February 11, 2010, 05:23 PM
hey thanks dave, that really helped..that 3rd bar is one of my favorite parts of the song.

and yeah gaddabout, that 4/4 is great. all based on the 2 beat groove. i wrote a chart for this...just a form chart, but ive been working on writing things out a lot recentyl.

E.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on February 11, 2010, 05:36 PM
just a form chart, but ive been working on writing things out a lot recentyl.

Keep it up. That's how you make quantum leaps in your playing. Won't take long before you just hear that advanced stuff and know immediately what's going on.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 14, 2010, 11:02 PM
Just added to my recent Vinnie C.D. stuff.  Jeff Lashaway, Jeff Beck and an original 1980 Karizma boot from Dimeadozen that the seeder claims is Vinnie's first gig with the band.

Also..not to be a reposter from othere boards..but has everyone seen the two videos on youtube of Vinnie in the Studio (Gingerbread Boy and Manic Depression)  Worth a look!

B.T.W...Nice to be home aand thanks for all the kudos on the Modern Drummer article.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 15, 2010, 02:24 PM
Sorry to be behind the ball but I've just read that Herbie is touring this summer/fall with Tal and Vinnie.  As it turns out there at the Hollywood Bowl during my next break so....The Wife and I are going.

WEDNESDAY 01 SEPTEMBER 2010
Herbie Hancock
with The Birthday Celebration
Hollywood Bowl
Hollywood, CA, US

In Herbie's own words

I’m going to be playing some of the new tunes from The Imagine Project as well as a couple of the things audiences always expect from me. I’ll have Vinnie Colaiuta on drums. I really like his playing — he’s deep and sensitive and, at the same time, he’s dazzling. He’s got a cult following, and he deserves it. Vinnie can go in any direction and the bottom line is, he’s totally creative.

And on Tal:

I’ve also got Tal Wilkenfeld, an electric bass player from Australia; she’s been working with Jeff Beck. One of the most important qualities I look for in a musician is intuition. Absolutely. Vinnie Colaiuta has that. So does Tal Wilkenfeld, even though she’s still a budding musician. To me, she’s a derivative of Jaco Pastorius — she has the technique, the lyricism, and she plays flawlessly. But Jaco’s only one of her influences. I listen to her and I think: how can she only be 24?

Sounds Good to me!!!!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 18, 2010, 09:11 AM
THE BAKED POTATO
40TH ANNIVERSARY JAZZ FESTIVAL
SATURDAY MAY 22, 2010 & SUNDAY MAY 23, 2010

Got an e-mail from an industry guy saying that Vinnie is making an appearance at this event.  Vinnie always pulls out everything in his arsenal for these gigs...so if you're in the area.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Hannah Ford on May 18, 2010, 10:11 AM
I would LOVE to make this event.  I'm going to be in NY for the MD Festival.  Vinnie is one of my favs...I LOVE Tal as well.   I'm so hopeful for the opportunity to perform with her one day.

Enjoy!

Hannah
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Paul DAngelo on May 19, 2010, 04:46 PM
Gee, I didn't have time to read all 217 replies, so I hope I'm not repeating anything.

I just bought and watched a new DVD entitled " http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NP8PQM?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001NP8PQM]Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's ".  Vinnie on drums, obviously.  Jeff Beck on guitar, obviously.  Tal Wilkenfeld on bass guitar (she is awesome) and a fantastic keyboard player by the name of Jason Rebello.  Guest stars include Joss Stone, Imogen Heap, and Eric Clapton.  Ronnie Scott's is a jazz club in London and it is pretty intimate in terms of size.  I thought that really added to the performances

The concert is simply awesome.  The technique exhibited by all of the musicians is impeccable, the precision of the music is astounding and most of all, the band is very musical.  That may sound odd, but I've seen a lot of technically proficient musicians who did little to move me emotionally, but that is not the case with this performance.

Of course, I had to talk myself out of selling my kit after watching Vinnie play for 90 minutes, he is just incredible.  His precision, fills, ability to play any style, and the fact that he actually looked like he was having fun added to the total enjoyment of his performance.

Plus, after seeing a fusion-type show for almost 90 minutes, I didn't think that simple "blues" would be able to follow and keep the vibe so intense, but I was wrong.  Seeing Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck playing together was worth the price of admission.

And the fact that Jeff Beck is now 65 has nothing to do with his incredible ability and passion for playing.

Did I mention I'd highly recommend this DVD?


Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 20, 2010, 11:47 AM
CONFIRMED!!!!

Steve Weingart is really looking forward to today, and the next few days.... I'll be rehearsing with Luke, Vinnie Colaiuta and Tal Wilkenfeld for the 40th Anniversary Baked Potato concert on Saturday. Next week, I'm off to the mid-west to play some shows with Victor Wooten. I'm seriously digging ALL of this! Have a GREAT day!

You KNOW I'm going!!

THE BAKED POTATO
40TH ANNIVERSARY JAZZ FESTIVAL
SATURDAY MAY 22, 2010 & SUNDAY MAY 23, 2010
sponsered by: 
THE JOHN ANSON FORD AMPITHEATRE
2580 Cahuenga Blvd. East
Hollywood, Ca. 90068
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 20, 2010, 04:42 PM
It just gets better..

Just found out the Vinnie is playing BOTH nights in 2 different bands

Saturday: Steve Lukather/Tal Wilkenfeld/Steve Weingart/Vinnie
Sunday: Jazz Ministry w/Abe Laboriel/Greg Mathieon/Mike Landau (Also Known as Dyno 4)

Tickets are a little steep...but what a line up.  Gary Novak/Tom Brectlein/Will Kennedy/Joel Taylor/..plus..if you're into it..Volto with Danny Carey (Tool) and Kirk Covington (Tribal Tech) on Keys and Vocals.  Might be the Fusion event of the decade.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 20, 2010, 04:58 PM
If you're going, buy tickets ahead of time. BP is TINY and that concert is going to be packed. Parking situation is going to be sticky, sticky too.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 20, 2010, 05:07 PM
Hey Gaddy..Happy 21st Birthday.  The concert is actually at Anson Ford Amphitheater

Here's the poster

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31244132&id=1071550218

Looks Good


Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 20, 2010, 05:17 PM
Oh, shoot. I missed that part of your post. I was just there two weeks ago, saw the posters, and just assumed the concert was there. That makes sense, though. I know for a fact if they held it at the BP there would be 100 times the interest versus what they could handle.

If you go ... pictures!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 21, 2010, 07:24 PM
From Steve Lukather on twitter:

I am rehearsing for the "SPUD" gig SAT with Vinnie Colaiuta, Tal Wilkenfeld and Steve Weingart today=fun!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 22, 2010, 12:04 PM
Here's the latest from Steve Weingart himself

Steve Weingart Happy Saturday Friends! Today I'm off to hang at the Ford Amphitheater for the Baked Potato 40th Anniversary. Festivities start at 2 pm, and I'm playing with Luke, Vinnie Colaiuta, and Tal Wilkenfeld around 6 to 6:30 pm. Its gonna be a great hang all day long! Hope to see some of you there... Have a great weekend!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 23, 2010, 12:20 PM
TONIGHT..Vinnie w/Dyno 4 )AKA Jazz Ministry..Landau/Mathieson/Laboriel..Ford Amphitheatre in NoHo
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 23, 2010, 11:11 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3872673&id=709674393(https://www.drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F&hash=5ff8fb91cedb63815a4a236f39b60634)

From Robert Rameriz and Steve Weingart
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 24, 2010, 07:09 PM
Just thought this could use a "bump"

Herbie Hancock with Vinnie & Tal at the Hollywood Bowl in September

Herbie Hancock Herbie Hancock: Seven Decades – The Birthday CelebrationWednesday, September 1, 2010, 8:00 PM
ARTISTS:
Herbie Hancock
Wayne Shorter, special guest
Derek Trucks, special guest
Susan Tedeschi, special guest
Vinnie Colaiuta, drums
Tal Wilkenfeld, bass
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 26, 2010, 01:12 PM
I didn't take this so no credit goes to me for it..but here's some vid from the Spud's 40th with Vinnie & Tal

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=102933526420690
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on May 26, 2010, 01:42 PM
I heard it was surprisingly lightly attended. Maybe 400 people. That's disappointing.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 26, 2010, 03:19 PM
Ticket prices were a little steep..Something like $240.00 for both days..a little high even for Mr. Colaiuta.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on May 26, 2010, 06:40 PM
Don't Forget...Herbie's Latest "The Imagine Project" drops soon.  Vinnie is ALL OVER that!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ablogsupreme/2010/04/a_teaser_for_herbie_hancocks_imagine.html

http://www.billboard.com/news/herbie-hancock-enlists-dave-matthews-jeff-1004011556.story#/news/herbie-hancock-enlists-dave-matthews-jeff-1004011556.story

I'm looking forward to this!

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Stanoch on August 27, 2010, 01:44 PM
I love this so much I can't stand it.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO3sUczuokQ#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO3sUczuokQ#ws

I could listen to it everyday not to mention watch it...

Here's a live version from Letterman:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQyl65DUZU#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQyl65DUZU#ws

Why isn't THIS  on the radio...It's not like Herbie hasn't won enough Grammies!  ::)

Anyway, it doesn't get any better than this.

Somebody tow Doug in from the high seas...

Enjoy!!!
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Paul DAngelo on August 27, 2010, 03:47 PM
.......Why isn't THIS  on the radio...
Interesting you commented on the radio play.  I actually heard this song on the radio just the other day, I believe on WNRN, a non-commercial station in the Charlottesville VA area.  I noticed because it's the first time I've heard "Space Captain" since listening to it on Joe Cocker's "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" album.  Great stuff.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: David Stanoch on August 27, 2010, 09:27 PM
Interesting you commented on the radio play.  I actually heard this song on the radio just the other day, I believe on WNRN, a non-commercial station in the Charlottesville VA area.  I noticed because it's the first time I've heard "Space Captain" since listening to it on Joe Cocker's "Mad Dogs and Englishmen" album.  Great stuff.

Well that warms my heart! It's such a killin' track...great vibe and of course the exemplary musicianship. You could draw a lot of people in w/this. And on the Vinnie tip it's fun to see him support the band and do his amazingly quirky hip-sh*t. He hasn't lost his fire. He's like poetry in motion.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Todd Knapp on August 29, 2010, 07:09 AM
I was frightened of what I might find in this thread. Then I saw that clip and I know why.

Evil. Pure, unadulterated Evil!  ;)

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on August 31, 2010, 06:32 PM
O.K. kids..this is simply silly....Vinnie

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWRnm0LWLx8&feature=related#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWRnm0LWLx8&feature=related#

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on September 02, 2010, 05:57 PM
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwF0qgIdDII#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwF0qgIdDII#

We should discuss every aspect of VC here, IMHO. Got this one from another website (Oops shouldn't have mentioned that.... Vinnie, you definitely need to work out. Or play way more drums .... ;D.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Zappa-fan on September 04, 2010, 08:19 AM
Some sick vinnie drumming way back and great musical interaction with eric johnson. Shut up 'n play your guitar came to mind .....

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGy77LnWA1Q&search=eric%20johnson%20clinic%20GIT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGy77LnWA1Q&search=eric%20johnson%20clinic%20GIT]www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGy77LnWA1Q&search=eric%20johnson%20clinic%20GIT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGy77LnWA1Q&search=eric%20johnson%20clinic%20GIT

Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on December 29, 2010, 11:41 AM
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBmZ6njbqk#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBmZ6njbqk#

I've only heard the recording. I didn't know there was a video of this song out there. You have to work hard to get past Garfield's outdated samples, but it's a golden performance once you do. This version is not as clean and fiery as the CD. They forget where the head is coming out of the bridge -- I think Garfield kind of blew it and lost everyone. LOL As if it matters because everyone still blows and figures it out like nothing happened.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Doug Tann on December 31, 2010, 04:16 PM
Please pardon my last post.  I pasted a cruise ship thing by mistake.  Here's the real Queen Latifah clip.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4DYuTak_o#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4DYuTak_o#

D
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: NY Frank on December 31, 2010, 06:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBmZ6njbqk#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnBmZ6njbqk#

I've only heard the recording. I didn't know there was a video of this song out there. You have to work hard to get past Garfield's outdated samples, but it's a golden performance once you do. This version is not as clean and fiery as the CD. They forget where the head is coming out of the bridge -- I think Garfield kind of blew it and lost everyone. LOL As if it matters because everyone still blows and figures it out like nothing happened.

Very nice.
Title: Re: Vinnie anybody
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on April 18, 2011, 10:21 PM
This clip has just been sitting out there and I didn't even know it. Absolutely ridiculous Vinnie. The double-bass licks that happen between 2:30 and 2:41 would make even a death metal drummer blush. They come out of nowhere.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SITHNhvnRo0#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SITHNhvnRo0#