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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: Scheming Demon on February 22, 2003, 03:25 PM

Title: Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Scheming Demon on February 22, 2003, 03:25 PM
Just wondering what the general feeling in the drum community about Tico (Taco Bell) Torres, of Bon Jovi is?

I personally like the chops oriented drummers, like Peart & Portnoy.

However, here's a guy, throughout his entire career does next to nothing drum wise.  I can't recall any drum fills the guy does or even cool grooves.  It's practically the same thing over and over again.  His got a double bass that he has never used and probably has never had to change any heads except on his snare.  I'd like to dub him the laziest drummer in rock.

I'm not saying he's a bad drummer because in fact he's obviously got good timing skills and plays in the pocket.  He's also part of one of the biggest selling and most popular bands of all time.  I'm sure he's crying all the way to the bank about opinions similar to mine.  Hell, Charlie Watts and Ringo Starr are like Mike Portnoy in comparison.

SO - do you think he plays this way because his chops are limited

because he is not very creative coming up with various drum beats without taking away from the songs

because he is instructed to play this way

or because that is the best way to play those songs and any other drum beat would ruin the songs and Bon Jovi would not be the rock icons they are?

I'm sure we'd all give our right arms to be in a band like Bon Jovi, except from a drummers perspective I personally would be bored to tears playing that stuff.

We have guys with incredible chops, master musicians who can play circles around most drummers and they are pretty much unknown and struggling to make a career.

On the other side, we have someone like Tico, who just about any drummer could play with minimal skills who is very well known and probably making tons of money.

I hope I'm not coming across as jealous, because I'm not.  Envious maybe.  I think we all make our choices to play the style we love and whatever level of success we can achieve with that, at least that is the case with me.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Nomad442 on February 22, 2003, 03:44 PM
Better yet why don't you tell him yourself  http://www.tico-torres.com/]http://www.tico-torres.com/  maybe have him critque your stuff as well
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Scheming Demon on February 22, 2003, 04:24 PM
Better yet why don't you tell him yourself  http://www.tico-torres.com/]http://www.tico-torres.com/  maybe have him critque your stuff as well


I guess I should have expected a comment like this.  I personally don't like his particular approach to playing drums.  Just an opinion from a nobody drummer.  His drumming is fine.  Why would I want to tell somebody, you're a good drummer but I personally prefer other styles better.  Like he really cares what I think.

As far as my playing, it's out there for any and all to listen to and comment on should they choose.

You however still didn't answer any of my questions or should I just assume you think Tico is a great a drummer and personally aspire to that style?
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Andrew on February 22, 2003, 04:27 PM
... because that is the best way to play those songs and any other drum beat would ruin the songs and Bon Jovi would not be the rock icons they are.

Probably a combination of elements, but if there's a reason why Bon Jovi has held on to Tico for so long, that's it.

I saw a band last night that I've followed for a year or so. In that time, they've switched drummers. The new guy is really talented -- probably more-so than the last drummer. HOWEVER, they really need to reign this guy in. He practically ruined a couple of their songs... One in particular demands a "When the Levee Breaks"/"Tom Sawyer" kind of steady forward momentum, and he threw in a lot of bouncy, splashy, flashy stuff that just killed the song, IMHO.

It's a good question to ask, though, and your list of proposed answers shows that this is something you've clearly given some thought to (as opposed to a "drummer X sucks" rant).
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 22, 2003, 05:01 PM
Just wondering what the general feeling in the drum community about Tico (Taco Bell) Torres, of Bon Jovi is?

I personally like the chops oriented drummers, like Peart & Portnoy.

However, here's a guy, throughout his entire career does next to nothing drum wise.  I can't recall any drum fills the guy does or even cool grooves.  It's practically the same thing over and over again.  His got a double bass that he has never used and probably has never had to change any heads except on his snare.  I'd like to dub him the laziest drummer in rock.

I'm not saying he's a bad drummer because in fact he's obviously got good timing skills and plays in the pocket.  He's also part of one of the biggest selling and most popular bands of all time.  I'm sure he's crying all the way to the bank about opinions similar to mine.  Hell, Charlie Watts and Ringo Starr are like Mike Portnoy in comparison.

SO - do you think he plays this way because his chops are limited

because he is not very creative coming up with various drum beats without taking away from the songs

because he is instructed to play this way

or because that is the best way to play those songs and any other drum beat would ruin the songs and Bon Jovi would not be the rock icons they are?

I'm sure we'd all give our right arms to be in a band like Bon Jovi, except from a drummers perspective I personally would be bored to tears playing that stuff.

We have guys with incredible chops, master musicians who can play circles around most drummers and they are pretty much unknown and struggling to make a career.

On the other side, we have someone like Tico, who just about any drummer could play with minimal skills who is very well known and probably making tons of money.

I hope I'm not coming across as jealous, because I'm not.  Envious maybe.  I think we all make our choices to play the style we love and whatever level of success we can achieve with that, at least that is the case with me.

WHAT! YOU INSULT TICO TORRES!  I KEEEEEL YUUU!  Where eees my plasteeec exploseeve and my dynamite belt.

But, seriously.  Don't you think Tico plays pretty much what the band leader wants him to play?  Not all leaders give their side men the discretion to play what they want.  And even if Tico had such discretion, it's not like BonJovi's music calls for Carl Palmeresque fills.  I'm not much of a BonJovi fan, I think I've seen him on TV a few times lately, but, I wouldn't be surprised if Tico can do a lot more than what he's doing with that gig.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 22, 2003, 05:05 PM
. . . We have guys with incredible chops, master musicians who can play circles around most drummers and they are pretty much unknown and struggling to make a career. . . .

Maybe the reason the guys with such chops don't make carreers is because their too busy playing circles around the bands they play in.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mark Schlipper on February 22, 2003, 05:31 PM
ill take "because its suits the music" for 500$ alex.  same reason you play the way you do id assume.  because its what you like and youll surround yourself with musicians who like that as well.

and be careful underestimating folk.  just cause you dont hear 'em play doesnt mean they cant.  charlie watts is a great example.  if the only time youve heard gadd was on this recent clapton thing, you might think the same thing.  
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 22, 2003, 05:59 PM
ill take "because its suits the music" for 500$ alex.

¡Exactamente!

Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know. We still love and respect him though, and he works his butt of because he plays the right parts (which in the real world, are usually not complicated chopfests.)

I think Tico is a fine drummer. I don't know if he's capable of doing more, or not, and it makes no difference - he's playing the right parts for the situation he's in.

Now if Scheming Demon asked "what would Tico do if he had to play with Chick Corea?" that might yield a different set of answers.

But not every drummer is meant to inspire. It's fine if they don't, and fine if we don't discover something in every drummer that we can take home with us, that's not what enjoying music is about! For those who thrive on chops and extreme playing, there's plenty of it out there. For those who just want grooves and find beauty in 2 & 4, there's plenty of that out there, too!

It's all good. No drummer is necessarily lacking just because they do a lot of 2 & 4, and no drummer is necessarily amazing just because they have chops.

The great players are the ones who know when to play the right parts. What are the right parts? The great players know the answer to that...

Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: bentakis on February 22, 2003, 05:59 PM
I'm with 563 on this one. If you're listening to Bon Jovi for killer drum grooves, you'll be more satisfied listening to some other group. I don't personally listen to Bon Jovi, but I'm sure the millions of people who do like the catchy melodies and such. I'm sure Tico Torres is the perfect guy for the group.

also, let's not underestimate the skill involved in laying down perfect time. in my opinon/experience, this is a skill that is just as hard to develop as fast paradiddles around the toms. So whether there are fill ins or not, I have to respect a drummer who can just nail a groove. and there are tons of bands who I love whose drummers barely do anything. Talking Heads and Radiohead are two of these bands, not to mention the Beatles. And if I can love a song, I think the drummer has done his/her job well.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 22, 2003, 06:48 PM
And if I can love a song, I think the drummer has done his/her job well.

Exactly...again!

I take music on face value: I either like it, or I don't. But I don't make that decision based on whether I think the drummer is playing up to my preferences... I listen to the entire thing. When I want to focus on the drummer's playing, there may be certain styles and songs I listen to, even though I may not actually enjoy that song otherwise.

It's not necessarily all about the drummer... not even to another drummer!
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: DrumGun on February 22, 2003, 07:11 PM
bermuda is on it.  Listen to the song first, then decide, if you must, whether or not the drummer is pleasing you.  It won't even be a factor if you love the song!

I think I understand, though, that this thread wasn't started as a slam to Tico, neccesarily, but as a question about why folks play as they do...I can say that with the bands I play for, I'm not "told" or even guided in a direction most of the time because I take it upon myself to try and make whatever the music is feel as good as possible.  Sometimes it's not easy, as I've played for folks that aren't up my alley, but you always have to reel in the desire to be noticed and praised by all of the drummers in the crowd...

I think tico's just a Jersey boy that is stoked that he's gotten rich and famous playing straight up rock and roll, so he just pushes the song along for Jon to preen and prance to.  Everyone you've seen hides SOME skills.  In fact, IMO, if you've seen ALL of somebodys licks, they probably don't have alot of taste or self-control...

Kevin
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Nomad442 on February 22, 2003, 09:50 PM
Quote
I'm not much of a BonJovi fan, I think I've seen him on TV a few times lately, but, I wouldn't be surprised if Tico can do a lot more than what he's doing with that gig.

I aggree 100%
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Nomad442 on February 22, 2003, 09:52 PM
Quote
I think tico's just a Jersey boy that is stoked that he's gotten rich and famous playing straight up rock and roll, so he just pushes the song along for Jon to preen and prance to.  Everyone you've seen hides SOME skills.  In fact, IMO, if you've seen ALL of somebodys licks, they probably don't have alot of taste or self-control...

Kevin

I agree 100%
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 22, 2003, 10:26 PM
You seem offended when people snap back at you, but your post smacks of immaturity. If Tico is lazy, I hope I can get that lazy too.

Tico's nickname is "the hitman" - because records he plays on become hits. The guy studied with Joe Morello, and had recorded with Frankie and the Knockouts, Pat Benatar, Chuck Berry, Cher, Alice Cooper, and Stevie Nicks before hooking up with Bon Jovi. Not exactly an amateur.

Guys like Tico get called in to replace drummers like you in the studio, the first time you find how hard it is to play a 3-minute, 8th-note-oriented "simple" track, and find out you can't do it with perfect time and a consistent feel. Tico can. That's my kind of chops.

If you don't dig Bon Jovi, that's fair enough. But don't assume it's easy to do what Tico is doing - it's not.  It's about playing appropriately for the song. Tico gets that. Maybe some day you will, too.



Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: JeepnDrummer on February 22, 2003, 10:54 PM
Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.
I have the Sheffield Drum Record (vinyl) that was recorded back in 1980 and it has Jim Keltner on one side and Ron Tutt on the other.  It showcases some of their chops.  It's groovy stuff, man!

By the way, there was a thread elsewhere about starting late in life on the drums.....well, Ron Tutt didn't start playing until his senior year in high school.  Interesting.

Tom
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 22, 2003, 11:09 PM
I have the Sheffield Drum Record (vinyl) that was recorded back in 1980 and it has Jim Keltner on one side and Ron Tutt on the other.  It showcases some of their chops.  It's groovy stuff, man!

Yep, and that's the only time I've heard that kind of playing from Jim! I actually have that on CD, but I do have the first 3 "direct-to-disc" Lincoln Mayorga albums on vinyl, some great Jim Gordon work on the first of those, with Keltner on Vol 2 & 3 (and prior to the Drum album.)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Scheming Demon on February 22, 2003, 11:19 PM
You seem offended when people snap back at you, but your post smacks of immaturity. If Tico is lazy, I hope I can get that lazy too.

Tico's nickname is "the hitman" - because records he plays on become hits. The guy studied with Joe Morello, and had recorded with Frankie and the Knockouts, Pat Benatar, Chuck Berry, Cher, Alice Cooper, and Stevie Nicks before hooking up with Bon Jovi. Not exactly an amateur.

Guys like Tico get called in to replace drummers like you in the studio, the first time you find how hard it is to play a 3-minute, 8th-note-oriented "simple" track, and find out you can't do it with perfect time and a consistent feel. Tico can. That's my kind of chops.

If you don't dig Bon Jovi, that's fair enough. But don't assume it's easy to do what Tico is doing - it's not.  It's about playing appropriately for the song. Tico gets that. Maybe some day you will, too.

Why do I seem offended when people snap back, what gave you that impression?  I asked a question, which some people got which was why do you play the way you do and not a personal slam on Tico or drummers like him.

I, in fact think he's a fine drummer and while I'm not a Bon Jovi fan per se, I have a great deal of respect for them and think they are an extremely talented band.

Why are you attacking me personally, you have no idea what I can or cannot do in the studio or otherwise?  Seems immature on your part not mine.  I'm just trying to have a lively discussion and now you're attacking me.

I also do not dispute the "hitman" reference because it's obviously true.  Is he playing well below his potential, maybe but he's been around for a long time, played on a lot of songs and I've never heard anything chops wise from him.  It's not good or bad just a statement based on my personal experience of hearing his playing.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 22, 2003, 11:33 PM
If you don't dig Bon Jovi, that's fair enough. But don't assume it's easy to do what Tico is doing - it's not.  It's about playing appropriately for the song. Tico gets that.

Word.

It always amazes when a drummer wants to "improve" upon a part that exists on a record, or "make it their own." Unless there is a specifically different arrangement, or you are told otherwise by the person paying you, play the parts that were on the record! Those are the beats and fills and sounds that made the record worth listening to in the first place, and worth covering 10, 20, 30 and 40 years later! They're the parts that everyone agreed at the time sounded right for the song!

When I'm doing '60s/'70s oldies (which I love dearly,) I strive to play the original parts - the parts that made the songs what they were. I have no illusion or ego that makes me want to "better" the playing of Ringo, Charlie, Mick Avory, Hal Blaine, John Barbata, etc.

Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

On my first gig in a particular band this January, when we got to We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, and I played that little tom/snare-accent thing after the chorus, the guys turned around and looked at me like I was from Mars - they had never heard a drummer do the right parts (other than on the record, I suspect.) I have continued to work with them as a result of that, and all of the other true-to-the-original parts I played that night, without rehearsal, and without having to be told that the songs should be authentic. In a cover band, as far as I'm concerned, that's just a given.

But what it boils down to is, play the right parts. Even in an original project, figure out what works - often your first instinct - and stick with it. Players who are constantly trying to "evolve" parts (under the guise of not wanting to become stale) are actually demonstrating that 1) they didn't get it right the first time, and 2) they still don't know what to play.

Bermuda
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 22, 2003, 11:43 PM
Sorry, got on a slight tangent there...

What I meant to also point out is that in popular music, more often than not, the right part is usually pretty simple, and undoubtedly those players can do more than what you hear on that recording. And there are genres where the drummer must really push the limits of their expression, and by the same rule, those are the right parts for that music.

I have a few tricks up my sleeve, but I've never been paid to demonstrate them either live or on record. Hey, that's cool. I have been accused many times of playing the right parts, but have never been accused of overplaying.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Nomad442 on February 22, 2003, 11:51 PM
I think Tico is a Fantastic Drummer.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: DrumGun on February 23, 2003, 12:24 AM
I agree with Mr. Bermuda.  

I can tell you I, on occasion, have been tokd to "play some of that crazy underhanded @$%#" at the held chord at the end of a song, but that's about it.  Guys like Virgil Donati, or Bozzio have decided to be solo artists, and in that situation they can play like they wish.  Guys like Portnoy or Beauford are in bands that encourage some over the top playing, and that allows them some freedom as well, but in 90% of the cases, I assure you, the artist paying you wants to HEAR themselves, and FEEL you.  If it's the other way around, I'm gonna come take your gig.

With Love,

Kevin
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: JeepnDrummer on February 23, 2003, 02:42 AM
It always amazes when a drummer wants to "improve" upon a part that exists on a record, or "make it their own." Unless there is a specifically different arrangement, or you are told otherwise by the person paying you, play the parts that were on the record! Those are the beats and fills and sounds that made the record worth listening to in the first place, and worth covering 10, 20, 30 and 40 years later! They're the parts that everyone agreed at the time sounded right for the song!

When I'm doing '60s/'70s oldies (which I love dearly,) I strive to play the original parts - the parts that made the songs what they were. I have no illusion or ego that makes me want to "better" the playing of Ringo, Charlie, Mick Avory, Hal Blaine, John Barbata, etc.

Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

On my first gig in a particular band this January, when we got to We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, and I played that little tom/snare-accent thing after the chorus, the guys turned around and looked at me like I was from Mars - they had never heard a drummer do the right parts (other than on the record, I suspect.) I have continued to work with them as a result of that, and all of the other true-to-the-original parts I played that night, without rehearsal, and without having to be told that the songs should be authentic. In a cover band, as far as I'm concerned, that's just a given.

But what it boils down to is, play the right parts. Even in an original project, figure out what works - often your first instinct - and stick with it. Players who are constantly trying to "evolve" parts (under the guise of not wanting to become stale) are actually demonstrating that 1) they didn't get it right the first time, and 2) they still don't know what to play.

Bermuda
I agree.  The way I came to this conclusion might be a bit different though.  I'm completely self taught.  While I have virtually zero skill with paradiddles and the like, I learned to lay the beat down and do fills based on the '60s and '70s bands I have on records.  That was 99% of my reference.  When I saw local bands, I knew it didn't work when the average amateur drummer put a fill in at ever opportunity.  I know I don't have the chops, but I usually know what the song needs.

Tom
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Misenko on February 23, 2003, 04:46 AM
Not a big fan of Bon Jovi but the simple fact that Tico has been with them for ages and has played on more records than you or I could ever dream of would indicate to me that he has talent somewhere.

Bands often wouldn't let you express your drumming urges in their music anyway. They want you to play a beat that they can play too. I get shouted at if I mess about too much.

Misenko.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Louis Russell on February 23, 2003, 06:38 AM
Chops?  Chops?  You want Chops?  Try playing your so called simple 8th notes for 3 minutes.  That can be one of the hardest things to master, especially if consistency means anything to you.  A musician must play what fits the music, Tico does this extremely well.  If what he was playing was not working, he would have been replaced long ago.  It takes maturity as a sideman to learn that   simple is more and understand it can also be much harder to accomplish.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tkitna on February 23, 2003, 07:54 AM
Quote
When I'm doing '60s/'70s oldies (which I love dearly,) I strive to play the original parts - the parts that made the songs what they were. I have no illusion or ego that makes me want to "better" the playing of Ringo, Charlie, Mick Avory, Hal Blaine, John Barbata, etc.

-Off the subject but when I read John Barbata's name, it took me back. My brother had a live CSNY record that announced his name as the drummer. I was young but always remembered that (if its the same person)

-Again off the subject, speaking of CSNY, I saw them a couple years ago in Pittsburgh and our seats were directly behind the stage. Jim Keltner was their drummer and to say I enjoyed myself is an under statement.

Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: nudrum on February 23, 2003, 07:56 AM
Is there anything left to be said on this thread?
Oh yeah, I like drummers who can keep the groove, in good time, with appropriate accents, and a nice feel. Sometimes, (usually) that's all the chops you need.
I think we drummers get so wrapped up in speed and complexity that we lose sight of the music, which often consists of melody, harmony, and often words. This line of thinking takes our head out of the music and into the technical thrashing and bashing that gets dirty looks from the musicians (reference to what do you call a person who hangs out with musicians joke).
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Drumbo on February 23, 2003, 08:54 AM
Is there anything left to be said on this thread?

Maybe.
A thread tittled "Might Start a War - but that's not the intent" speaks for itself imho.  It's very like, "I don't mean to start a fight; so excuse me while I throw the first punch".     :o
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 23, 2003, 08:59 AM
-Off the subject but when I read John Barbata's name, it took me back. My brother had a live CSNY record that announced his name as the drummer. I was young but always remembered that (if its the same person)

Same guy, and he also played with Jefferson Lawsuit. Er... Starship  :)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 23, 2003, 09:11 AM
Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

LOL - Yeah, that brings to mind the thought of a bunch of Mike Portnoy fills on a Bon Jovi song - *CRINGE*  :-X

I'll admit - when I was a kid, first learning how to play, I looked at every quarter note as an opportunity to play a bunch of 32nd notes. I couldn't understand why drummers didn't fill every conceivable space with as many notes and cool chops as possible. I thought Ringo sucked.

Like I said, I was a kid.

If you don't like Bon Jovi because they don't sound like Dream Theater, guess what - you just don't like Bon Jovi. And that's fair enough. But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Play for the song. There's different kinds of songs out there. Listen, and play along.  ;D
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 23, 2003, 09:26 AM
On the topic of the right part, and my specifically mentioning drummers in 60s bands, I should point out that not every drummer in a group did play the right parts, so Hal Blaine was brought in to help make the tracks more radio-friendly (and also undoubtedly saved a lot of studio time by nailing tracks in a minimum of takes.)

Bands whose drummers were okay live, but not quite right to play on the records and were replaced by Hal, included the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & The Playboys, Paul Revere & The Raiders, Herb Alpert & Tijuana Brass. I can't even begin to list the countless other artists whose records Hal played on, because he was the guy who knew what worked... what to play... what the right parts were.

BTW, you rarely heard Hal do anything that could be construed as "fireworks" in his playing. Not because those concepts didn't exist in the 60s, but because the vast majority of pop music didn't require it; those kind of parts wouldn't have been right.

This concept of studio players tracking records has pretty much disappeared, as drummers in groups are typically more talented (thanks to growing up with the drumming of behind-the scenes mentors like Hal) and they have a better sense of what works on songs. But there are obviously still some studio heroes like Keltner, Ferrone, JR, who know when it's time to lay down 'time', which is most of the time.

Unless instructed otherwise, whenever I approach a new song, I start out with 1 & 3 on the kick, 2 & 4 on the snare, and gradually work in an extra kick here & there until I think it's enough, maybe an extra snare if I think the song is crying out for it. It's rare that I got asked to play more than I'd already done, but I was definitely never asked to play the most complicated crap I could conjure, and I never needed to play anywhere near the limit of my ability.

Anyway... "right part" - very important. Tico gets it.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 23, 2003, 09:41 AM
But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Yep. While the parts may be radically different, the concept of the right part applies to both, equally.

Can there be more than one right part? Possibly, probably yes in many cases. But could a Ringo backbeat or a Bozzio ostinato - both right perhaps for their respective genres - both work for a particular song? Of course not don be ridiculas!

The right parts for a specific song will be fairly consistent to each other, not radically different.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 23, 2003, 09:49 AM
I asked a question, which some people got which was why do you play the way you do and not a personal slam on Tico or drummers like him.

I, in fact think he's a fine drummer and while I'm not a Bon Jovi fan per se, I have a great deal of respect for them and think they are an extremely talented band.

Why are you attacking me personally, you have no idea what I can or cannot do in the studio or otherwise?  Seems immature on your part not mine.  I'm just trying to have a lively discussion and now you're attacking me.

I'm sorry if you felt I attacked you. And I made the mistaken assumption that you were a kid - I've visited your band's site, and it appears you're both a grown-up and a good drummer. Your tastes differ from mine, but so what? Good luck with your band.

As far as your "respect" for Tico - I feel comments like this undermine that respect: "I can't recall any drum fills the guy does or even cool grooves.  It's practically the same thing over and over again.  His got a double bass that he has never used and probably has never had to change any heads except on his snare.  I'd like to dub him the laziest drummer in rock."

You also described his drum parts as something "just about any drummer could play with minimal skills"

From that comment, I do feel safe in assuming you've never done any pop/rock session work. If you think it takes minimal skills to make a professional sounding record - regardless of the style - then you and I are not on the same page.

Anyway, we all have our opinions. I acknowledge the skill it takes to play like Portnoy. But to me it takes no less skill to play like Ringo. I've never heard a mistake on a Beatles album. I've never heard anything I thought I could improve. And actually, I have heard some sloppy playing on some LTE and TransAtantic CDs that Portnoy played on. But he's still an excellent drummer.

For some people it's really hard to appreciate the skill and hard work involved in a work of art that is not to their tastes - whether it's Bon Jovi, Judas Priest, or Rush. I'm rare, in that I enjoy almost all musical styles. And I do NOT assume that the styles that have the highest note count per song are actually any harder than getting an AC/DC song just right. Your mileage varies. Fair enough.

Happy drumming!


Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: bentakis on February 23, 2003, 10:37 AM
I believe if Mr. Peart was here, he'd reply to this all by saying "LESS IS ALWAYS JUST LESS"

(Mr. Peart's views do not necessarily reflect the views of Ben Takis or the Drummer Cafe Discussion Forum)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Carlos Benson on February 23, 2003, 12:31 PM
Serve the music ... and Tico does. 8)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Louis Russell on February 23, 2003, 01:16 PM
Serve the music ... and Tico does. 8)

Pass the groove please ;D
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: benleb on February 23, 2003, 05:49 PM
I think the song Homebound Train (on BJ's New Jersey CD) gives a pretty good idea of Tico's chops...

Not a difficult song to play but it,s some very colorful and inspiring drumming.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tony on February 23, 2003, 06:50 PM
I believe if Mr. Peart was here, he'd reply to this all by saying "LESS IS ALWAYS JUST LESS"

(Mr. Peart's views do not necessarily reflect the views of Ben Takis or the Drummer Cafe Discussion Forum)

Gotta go there, eh? :)

I grew up in the 'burbs of NYC and first heard BJ on the WPLJ compilation album.  Having seen these guys from small clubs to arenas over the years, trust me, Tico's got chops.  

There really is no need to rehash the smart drumming concept that has been revisited again on this thread.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Han Steevo on February 23, 2003, 07:07 PM
I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to read through the thread.  Here's my response to the initial post:

because he's limited


Vinnie Colaiuta has played with numerous musicians including Sting, and while playing with Sting he still played perfect for the music, but made it interesting.  It's possible to play what's required and still keep drummers' interest while not showing off.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 23, 2003, 09:03 PM
I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to read through the thread.  Here's my response to the initial post:

because he's limited

Please take 10 minutes and read all of the responses that we weren't too lazy to write, before arriving at such a hasty conclusion about Tico.

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: felix on February 24, 2003, 06:08 AM
Well, while some of you guys were bashing Tico (one of my fav. cats believe it or not) I was recording all weekend and let me tell you, I had about a 5 minute song where I had to play an 8th note rock groove.  We worked on the tune about an hour or so and I'm still not happy with it-  we have been working on this particular one about a year!

It is VERY HARD to lay down groove like Tico does.  If some of you are so talented where you can do that, more power to ya, I guess your justified in your posts.  All I can say is I am a big fan of Tico and trust me he knows art, crap, he deals in fine arts all the time.  That perfect 2 and 4 of his is BEAUTIFUL...if you can't hear it then I question your talent.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Louis Russell on February 24, 2003, 06:18 AM
It is VERY HARD to lay down groove like Tico does

Thats what I just said Felix,  Its harder than most realize and even harder when you listen to what you just recorded.  
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: felix on February 24, 2003, 06:35 AM
I know you said it Louis and I totally agree...since I actually took the time to read thru ALL the posts.

I also have to agree with Mr. A that Vinnie C's stuff really isn't a whole lot harder for me to play than ACDC!

You know as absurd as that sounds I do both and find them both as challenging!  I think that is the weirdest epiphany I've had about drumming in a long time...  I've always thought it, but the reality of the concept keeps coming back and slapping me in the face.  There is still a lot of stuff I can't play, always will be, but I'm surprised at how hard it is to be a great groove player.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Louis Russell on February 24, 2003, 06:47 AM
the reality of the concept keeps coming back and slapping me in the face.  

Yep,  I am a charter member of the slap in the face club. ;D
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: RHSquonk on February 24, 2003, 06:54 AM
I grew up in the 'burbs of NYC and first heard BJ on the WPLJ compilation album.  Having seen these guys from small clubs to arenas over the years, trust me, Tico's got chops.  
I'm with Tony, had the privilage of a BJ soundcheck back in the day...and the man can play his asscot off  ;). As it has been re-iterated 1 bajillion times here...it s playing the right part for the song...or using the right tool for the right job. You can hammer in a nail with a screwdriver...but why would you want to? Tico knew what was best for the song and put it out there, end of story.
Quote
I think the song Homebound Train (on BJ's New Jersey CD) gives a pretty good idea of Tico's chops...
give this song a listen...and then try and play it...then play it everynight for 2 solid years like Tico did while touring the world. Then...you will be a Jedi. Until then...enjoy your status as an endless apprentice like the rest of us. a little humilty is a good thing.
rant rant rant..... :)
-RH =)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tkitna on February 24, 2003, 08:03 AM
Kind of off the subject but I was watching VH1's 100 greatest hard rock bands and i think AC/DC was #4, but when different artists were talking about them, they mentioned how fantastic the simple driving beat of the drums were and how hard it is to get that sound. One of the artists was Roger Glover from Deep Purple and he was preaching this. I found it funny because Ian Paice seems just the opposite to me. Maybe Roger was mad at him or something.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: benleb on February 24, 2003, 08:22 AM
Kind of off the subject but I was watching VH1's 100 greatest hard rock bands and i think AC/DC was #4, but when different artists were talking about them, they mentioned how fantastic the simple driving beat of the drums were and how hard it is to get that sound. One of the artists was Roger Glover from Deep Purple and he was preaching this. I found it funny because Ian Paice seems just the opposite to me. Maybe Roger was mad at him or something.

IMHO, Ian Paice is one hell of a groove-oriented drummer! He's very capable of doing incredible fills but when I think of his drumming, groove is what comes to mind.

Just to name a few: Stormbringer, Perfect Strangers, Space Truckin', Knocking At Your Back Door, Burn... groove all the way!
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tkitna on February 24, 2003, 08:39 AM
Theres no question about groove. Ian Paice is amazing and one of my favorite drummers. I was just comparing the two styles of Ian and Phil Rudd. Not a cap in any way.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Han Steevo on February 24, 2003, 10:43 AM
"I also have to agree with Mr. A that Vinnie C's stuff really isn't a whole lot harder for me to play than ACDC!..."

"...There is still a lot of stuff I can't play, always will be, but I'm surprised at how hard it is to be a great groove player."


I'm confused... You're saying you can play Vinnie's stuff, but then there's other stuff you CAN'T play?  What would that be, 4-limb independence sight-reading and 600bpm 16th-note blasts?  I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\


PS - Please don't get all uppity, I'm honestly wondering what you consider to be more difficult than Vinnie if it's comparable to AC/DC's work.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Bermuda Schwartz on February 24, 2003, 11:01 AM
I'm honestly wondering what you consider to be more difficult than Vinnie if it's comparable to AC/DC's work.

I understand what he meant, that a drummer has to apply themselves just as much to be complicated, as to be simple. The technique is vastly different, but the approach is the same.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 24, 2003, 11:14 AM
I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\

 http://www.wavplanet.com/MOVIES/Austin_Powers/getit.wav]CLICK HERE  for an audio summation.  ;)

Seriously, there's more to being able to play AC/DC than simply being able to move your arms and legs fast enough to replicate the notes. There is a conviction present in drumming like that that is a HUGE part of why their songs sound so good. It's timing; it's instinct; it's attitude - it's a host of other intangible things that make Phil Rudd sound better playing those notes than Dave Weckl ever could.

There's a reason Kenny Aronoff and Eddie Bayers keep getting called to do records that seldom call for anything faster than an 8th note. When these guys play 8th notes, it just plain sounds better.

I think what Felix is getting at is that it's every bit as hard to get your simple drumming to sound as good as a topflight pro, as it is to try to learn their most complex licks.

You say you can play AC/DC. But can you play it well enough that you'd win an audition for the drum chair, playing the same parts as 200 other drummers who auditioned? You may not believe it, but there is a HUGE difference in how a real pro can make those beats sound and how an average drummer who thinks this stuff is easy can make it sound. Guys like Phil Rudd, Simon Kirke, Russ Kunkel, etc. absolutely KILL me - I wish I could play 8th notes like that!

Maybe you just don't hear it yet. But believe me, the musicians you play with - now or in the future - they'll hear it.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tony on February 24, 2003, 12:20 PM
Quote
Quote from: Mister Acrolite
Seriously, there's more to being able to play AC/DC than simply being able to move your arms and legs fast enough to replicate the notes. There is a [i
conviction[/i] present in drumming like that that is a HUGE part of why their songs sound so good. It's timing; it's instinct; it's attitude - it's a host of other intangible things that make Phil Rudd sound better playing those notes than Dave Weckl ever could.

Maybe you just don't hear it yet. But believe me, the musicians you play with - now or in the future - they'll hear it.

Well stated, but I think it's a waste of time to try and explain this concept to some people.  As you know, it takes a great deal of maturity and experience as a musician to undestand this concept.  It seems to me that this forum is slowly becoming inundated with players who are more concerned with quantity of notes over the quality.  My instructor used to tell me the same things and I used to blow him off the same way many people here do to us.  It was only after I lost out on several gigs to "worse" drummers that I finally understood it.  That, and a few humbling lessons with drummers such as Kenny Aronoff. ;)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 12:23 PM
Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.
I have the Sheffield Drum Record (vinyl) that was recorded back in 1980 and it has Jim Keltner on one side and Ron Tutt on the other.  It showcases some of their chops.  It's groovy stuff, man!

By the way, there was a thread elsewhere about starting late in life on the drums.....well, Ron Tutt didn't start playing until his senior year in high school.  Interesting.

Tom

Now, senior year in HS is late in life!  OMG!!!   :o

Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 12:32 PM
Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

LOL - Yeah, that brings to mind the thought of a bunch of Mike Portnoy fills on a Bon Jovi song - *CRINGE*  :-X

I'll admit - when I was a kid, first learning how to play, I looked at every quarter note as an opportunity to play a bunch of 32nd notes. I couldn't understand why drummers didn't fill every conceivable space with as many notes and cool chops as possible. I thought Ringo sucked.

Like I said, I was a kid.

If you don't like Bon Jovi because they don't sound like Dream Theater, guess what - you just don't like Bon Jovi. And that's fair enough. But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Play for the song. There's different kinds of songs out there. Listen, and play along.  ;D

The amazing thing is how young Ringo and the Beatles were when they had taste.  I can't say I ever hear Ringo play an inappropriate note.  Maybe that was or wasn't his call, but, I thought "It Don't Come Easy" was the natural progression of Ringo's style after the breakup and was an excellent example of the pure art of drumming.

Ratamatatt

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Han Steevo on February 24, 2003, 12:32 PM
Well, it can be if that's what you hope to pursue as a career.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: SheldonWhite on February 24, 2003, 12:37 PM
>Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.

Yes, I hear him play up to his ability everytime he plays one of those simple, impossibly smooth, impossibly steady, impossibly tasty tracks that fits impossibly well with the music.
I think that's a lot harder than just throwing out a bunch of licks and tricks and hoping something sticks.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 12:39 PM
I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\

 http://www.wavplanet.com/MOVIES/Austin_Powers/getit.wav]CLICK HERE  for an audio summation.  ;) . . . .


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhaaaa!!!!
Title: Yeah, but...
Post by: c. jude on February 24, 2003, 01:04 PM
Almost didn't read this thread expecting the usual.  A couple of great posts in here though.  It is a difficult concept to convey, and some of you have done so pretty articulately.  The nuances of timing and timekeeping of this attack or that, this subtle color or that, (even in straight four) are what set the Jim Keltners of the world apart, not fast singles and flashy fills.  There are thousands of drummers that can execute a lot of notes fast, there are dozens that can play virtually the same thing infinitely better (same goes for straight four too).  If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

The tough one to take is the commercially successful song where maybe the drum part is overplayed, maybe underplayed, maybe the part was essential right, but when you play it, it just sounds tons better.  You just gotta keep smiling when that happens... and definitely count that in the blessings category and keep on plugging.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: DrumGun on February 24, 2003, 01:23 PM
I've got to dive in here, because Ringo's been reffered to a couple of times, and 'maturity" a couple of times and "taste" a million times.  I think good drumming comes down to common sense, a love of melody, and (when applicable) restraint.  I have friend that actually asked Ringo about his maturity and taste in regards to his early develpment of (what was then) Ringo's new, innovative style of drumming and music.  His reply speaks volumes on both sides of the coin, basically saying that in all honesty he was playing at the top of his ability as far as "chops", that he wasn't terribly coordinated, couldn't generate much speed, and really wasn't sure at the time what "good" technique was.  He stated that he simply played what he heard in his head as John or Paul sang him an idea, that sometimes he wanted to do more but couldn't, or wanted to play less and was talked into more by the others.  He finished up by saying that only later, towards the end of the band, did his hands,taste, and knowledge land on the same page. So, in essence, he was never in a position to try to impress, it was always about creating something with others.

These are wonderful statements, in my opinion, because it drives to what is, IMO, the essence of being a good drummer.   Are there guys out there that claim to "serve the song", but in actuality play simply because they can't DO anything else? Of course there are, just like the guys that also talk a big game about playing musically, then @$%# all over ever phrase in the show because  another drummer is in the room.  Common sense is the key.  You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    

If your are lucky and driven enough to have develped mad skills, great.  Congratulations.  Lot's of people have.  Do you have true, honest restraint in your personality?  Do you view other drummers as a threat?  The answer to these questions and a little dose of common sense should tell you whether you are actually a drummer/musician or a hack, wasting time hitting things with sticks.

On the other side, not every famous drummer is necessarily a good player.  Sometimes, chance had alot to do with their success.  There is, however, ALWAYS a correlation between success and the blend of personalities in any given group, so many times it's the personal dynamic that really makes the difference, even more so than ability.I don't wish to start a bitchfest, so I 'll not name names, but the most successful heavy metal drummer ever is a complete hack behind the drums, especially live, but he runs the band and has a dynamic personality that binds the group.  That group would not be where they are with someone else behind the kit, crappy time be damned.

All of this should lead you, as a musician, to one thing.  Common sense.  Woodshed on EVERYTHING, not just what you're good at.  Enter every situation with an open mind.  If you stumble into a situation where the group leader says "I really what you to just crush all comers constantly throughout this song, because that's what it needs", then start cutting heads, have some fun, and shut up when that song is over.  There really is no right and wrong in our world, only good and bad, and even that is relatively subjective.  I can't make it through a Dream Theater song.  I'd rather chew glass.  Mike Portnoy, however, is no doubt a very talented player who deserves recognition.  I LOVE Knig's X & Jerry Gaskill, but only about 7 other people on the planet know who they are.  Subjective. Decide what you want to say and head down that road.

This thread started with TIco, so I'll end with Tico.  He may be at the top of his ability playing for Chompers (Jon), he may have mad skills laying in wait.  I don't care whcih is the case.  When I see an add for my local bar that says "tonight only, the Tico Torres Jazz Conundrum" I'll go and find out.  Until then, I know that he chose his path and stuck to it, and he's a far better drummer for Bon Jovi than I would be.  I think I could handle "Wanted Dead or Alive", but the puke on my snare would probably hinder "I would die for You"...

Subjective.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Jim Martin (cavanman) on February 24, 2003, 01:24 PM
>Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.

Yes, I hear him play up to his ability everytime he plays one of those simple, impossibly smooth, impossibly steady, impossibly tasty tracks that fits impossibly well with the music.

Amen. Keltner is my current hero. I want to play everything with the kind of confidence that every note is absolutely the right thing.

BTW: If you think playing fast is tough try playing whole notes with a click track that goes in and out of your headphone mix at 75 bpm.

(Help ....mommy!)

Jim

 ;D
Title: Re:Yeah, but...
Post by: Han Steevo on February 24, 2003, 01:31 PM
If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

I feel the same way about you guys inferring that Vinnie is just a bunch of chops--except I know it's a handicap.  You guys must not realize what he's doing or else there wouldn't think there would be such a controversy over his "many notes."  Also, Vinnie doesn't always play lots and fast, which was my point.  Vinnie has done a lot of stuff, but I don't think I've ever heard him just play boring, simple beats, and yet what he plays always fits the music.

A simple rock beat will do, but so would many other licks, which would most likely complement the music better.

I've been around music my entire life, and both of my parents still play gigs with a "band" at country clubs, parties, etc, so I know all about playing tastefully.  However, I'm still not sure whether you guys truly think that playing a simple rock beat is next to godliness or if you're just saying that to make you feel better because you can't play the busy stuff.  For the record, no, I can't play all of that "busy stuff."

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Han Steevo on February 24, 2003, 01:39 PM
You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    


Right, because all Virgil does is overplay and ruin every band situation he plays in  ::)

If you truly believe that all Virgil does is try to show off while playing, stop listening to On the Virg and Planet X and listen to Freakhouse.
Title: Re:Yeah, but...
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 24, 2003, 01:44 PM
And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

How much you want to bet?

Han, listening to a jazz guy try to play rock is every bit as painful as listening to a heavy metal guy try to play bebop. And I'm not some rocker who hates jazzers - I was a professional jazz drummer long before I also became a professional rock drummer.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.

Vinnie can, too, but he has a hard time hiding his slickness. Gregg Bissonette can do it. There are others, no doubt about it. But most jazz drummers can't, plain and simple. I'd rather eat glass (to quote Drumgun) than listen to Weckl try to play a heavy rock groove. It's just not his voice, so to speak. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. He can play rock solid time - no question. But he doesn't rock, at least not in my opinion.

I take music very seriously. And I feel that the ability to "rock" is every bit as intangible (and yet essential) as the ability to "swing" is for a jazz drummer. I don't know - I guess we hear things differently.

But I'll stand by my assertion that the ability to play notes is NOT the same as the ability to play a style. That's something I'll bet on.  ;D
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: SteveG on February 24, 2003, 01:50 PM
I wish I saw this thread sooner. Tico and I played the Jersey cover circuit together (although he did start playing the circuit several years before I did). He was in two very prominent bands in the circuit, Phantom's Opera and T. Roth and Another Pretty Face. He also studied with Joe Morello for a while. Let me tell you, the man can play. You WILL NOT hear over-the-top let me fit as many notes as possible in every measure chops in Bon Jovi because Jon's songs do not call for it and Tico is wise enough to realize that. Bermuda mentions Jim Keltner who is my favorite rock/pop drummer. Like Tico, Jim Keltner always plays what is appropriate for the song.

You cannot judge Tico's technical ability by what you hear in Bon Jovi. What you can judge is Tico's ability to know what is appropriate to play and what not to play which is more than we can say for many drummers out there on the circuit.  Those are the guys who usually get the gigs, not the chop/shredders.

Title: Re:Yeah, but...
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 03:33 PM
If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

Now that is funny.   ;D  Hey, I could say I can hear it but can't play it, and you'd never know the difference.  LOL.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 03:40 PM
You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    


Right, because all Virgil does is overplay and ruin every band situation he plays in  ::)

If you truly believe that all Virgil does is try to show off while playing, stop listening to On the Virg and Planet X and listen to Freakhouse.

That's what's so cool about swingin to standards out of the Real Book.  You always get to trade fours.   8)  Of course it's a bad sign if you don't hear that last bass note trail off at the end of the bass solo.   :-\  LOL.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Yeah, but...
Post by: Ratamatatt on February 24, 2003, 03:46 PM
And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

How much you want to bet?

Han, listening to a jazz guy try to play rock is every bit as painful as listening to a heavy metal guy try to play bebop. And I'm not some rocker who hates jazzers - I was a professional jazz drummer long before I also became a professional rock drummer.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.

Vinnie can, too, but he has a hard time hiding his slickness. Gregg Bissonette can do it. There are others, no doubt about it. But most jazz drummers can't, plain and simple. I'd rather eat glass (to quote Drumgun) than listen to Weckl try to play a heavy rock groove. It's just not his voice, so to speak. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. He can play rock solid time - no question. But he doesn't rock, at least not in my opinion.

I take music very seriously. And I feel that the ability to "rock" is every bit as intangible (and yet essential) as the ability to "swing" is for a jazz drummer. I don't know - I guess we hear things differently.

But I'll stand by my assertion that the ability to play notes is NOT the same as the ability to play a style. That's something I'll bet on.  ;D

To my ear Gadd is the only funk/rock drummer I've heard that really feels swing time.  Then, maybe you don't consider him to be a real "rocker."

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Phil Bowman on February 24, 2003, 04:15 PM
To Han Steevo...

My point with the reference to Virgil and Bozzio was NOT implying that uber-chops is all they can do.  If you look at the context, it is refering to the fact that if one wants to "be the ball", which is my Caddyshack term for being the main guy, the focus of the show, the big cheeze, the guy everyone's looking at, etc., then one be a solo drum artist or start/get involved with a group that really has you on display.

I've met both of these drummers and have great respect for each.  They will both tell you exactly what I have, that if being "the man" is what you want, you'll have to build the project from the ground up around yourself or kill Carter Beauford.  95% of working drummers HAVE  to be able to play a groove of comfort.  Usually that groove involves a "2" and a "4".

I too love Keltner.  Anyone who doesn't is probably a monkey.  Just thought I'd toss that in...

Kevin
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: DrumGun on February 24, 2003, 04:18 PM
Sorry, I should've explained that the last post was me, DrumGun, over at  Philips_hed's house on his puter.  Sorry if it was confusing to Mr. Solo, uh, I mean Steevo...

Kevin
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tkitna on February 24, 2003, 06:23 PM
Quote
And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed

I wish I could remember the exact event, I cant, but I remember Phil Collins saying that he played with Ozzy,in some event for the queen or something due to charity or whatever, for a song or two and he had to play "Paranoid" by Sabbath. Phil said it was one of the hardest things he ever had to do. That song sounds pretty easy and i've played it a few times. IMO its not very hard (I know I probably dont sound great playing it but i'm making a point) but it was for Phil. I wonder why? LOL!
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Tony on February 25, 2003, 08:28 AM
Granted, most people with elementary drum skills can play a straight 1/8 note rock beat.  But can they play with conviction, feel and personality?  Hell no.  If you listen to a lot of prog rock a la Portnoy or Donati, it is going to come across in your playing, no matter what the riff.  It seems to me that what takes time to understand for younger players, regardless of their instrument, is the level of emotion and personality that goes into crafting a part for a song.  I don't mean emotion like anger or angst.  I mean conveying the emotion of the song and the intention of the songwriter.  Your own personality is going to come into the way you play a beat.  That's why 50 people can audition for the drum chair in a band like Tonic, but Kevin is going to get the gig.  It has nothing to do with playing the beat that is written, it is how it comes out of you.  Look at big band charts. They are, for the most part, simple phrases with accented horn hits.  So by some people's logic, any idiot with rudimentary reading skills should play it as well as say, Gregg Bissonette or Phil Collins?  Right, if you believe that, I have some land in South Florida you might be interested in ;D

As for jazzers playing rock, etc.  All I'll say is this:  Buddy Rich.  The greatest drummer in history and he sounded like a dork playing a rock beat.
Title: Re:Yeah, but...
Post by: sidereal on February 25, 2003, 01:26 PM
And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.


Interesting to me is that the incident that literally drove Steve into therapy was his personal struggles with meter (whether his own or based on someone else's opinion) that led to his firing from Journey. I can't recall him ever getting fired from a jazz project, or having any insecurity about playing the genre.

By the way, any jazz-schooled chops master who thinks he can lay down a slow slow blues song, show dynamics and restraint, help the singer sound like an angel, do it all with personality over the course of 10 minutes, and end the song on the exact same tempo as it began without the use of a metronome is welcome to try and take my gig away from me.

Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: jordihs on February 26, 2003, 03:45 AM
What about, it's a matter of taste? You mentioned Mike Portnoy as opposed to Tico Torres for being 'chop oriented'. I have listened to Dream Theater and I noticed something very interesting about them: they are mostly popular among other musicians, but 'non-specialiced' listeners seem to think they only make noise. On the other hand, bon Jovi is extremely popular and although I find them cheesy and commercial I see good, proffessional musicians working there. So, if you listen to the musicians you might prefer Dream Theater, but if you listen to the music you might find out (as I did) that these instrument-mag-cover-guy made up band plays junk music made up of all the most intrincate technical artifacts they can find. Technically impressive, yet lacking in soul (IMHO). So, if you listen to drums only Portnoy stands out by far (I agree to that). But listening to music, which is what most of the audience does, well, DT is much harder to swallow than BJ.
As far as I know, Tico Torres worked as a studio drummer before entering BJ, which means to me he's got enaugh musicianship to be respected. Anyway, if you don't like his playing there's lots of Dream Theater CDs in the store and you won't be force to buy Bon Jovi CDs along. Or if you think you are a better player than him apply for his job. And if you think that Mike Portnoy would be a better drummer for Bon Jovi, then I think you are very wrong  ;)
My final thought would be that hearing a chop every other bar is even more boring than hearing no chops at all. At least no chops at all let you hear what the music is trying to say.
Anyway, I'm not censoring you for saying you dislike a famous player, look at how many answers you got. It is interesting to see what people think about the playing of mainstream musicians. And to support this thread I'll say (if that's not evident enaugh yet) that I (musically) hate Dream Theater for making music that is (almost) for musicians only. But Of course I respect people that like DT, just disagree with them  ;D
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: nudrum on February 26, 2003, 05:38 AM
I couldn't agree more with Stoneyhand!!
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: benleb on February 26, 2003, 07:05 AM
John Bonham and Ian Paice - IMHO two examples of the perfect combo of groove/feel vs chops.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: felix on February 26, 2003, 08:21 AM
With Ian I agree with you.  I love him.

John Bonham, as great as he was, had a really strange groove- now you can flame me, but we have talked about this before and his groove is just, well so Bonham.
Don't get me wrong, but J.B.'s groove lets just say was inimitable. :)
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Carn on February 26, 2003, 11:16 AM
Gee, hmm, what shall i say to this. Ah wait! I got it!

All the bands above are popular, famous, succesfull, whatever, because the musicians in the band are making music that sounds 'good'. Take one of the musicians out, then it wont sound the same anymore, even if you put a technically better musician in the same place.

To make good music you need to be a good musician in your field of music, and the fun thing about human beings is that no one is alike, so no matter what kind of chop-monster you are, you probably wont be able to make the music sound the same way as someone else did.

Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: sidereal on February 26, 2003, 12:03 PM
I'll never forgive Carl Palmer for ruining ELP's "Lucky Man." That is such an almost great song, but it's completely ruined and rendered almost unlistenable by Carl's excessive and just plain bad drumming.

Great drummer... wrong drummer for the song.
Title: Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
Post by: Mister Acrolite on February 26, 2003, 12:07 PM
I'll never forgive Carl Palmer for ruining ELP's "Lucky Man." That is such an almost great song, but it's completely ruined and rendered almost unlistenable by Carl's excessive and just plain bad drumming.

Great drummer... wrong drummer for the song.

Yeah - he's one of those guys that I worshipped as a kid, but when I go back and listen now, I cringe. Great player, amazing chops, but his taste and groove seem a bit questionable in retrospect.