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LOUNGE => General Board => Topic started by: drumz1 on April 06, 2003, 12:21 AM

Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: drumz1 on April 06, 2003, 12:21 AM
We all know that Bernard "Buddy" Rich was THE drummer of drummers.  He was truly incomparable in the drumming world.  A lot of things were said of him, both good and bad.

Almost every big-name drummer who met Buddy had words of praise for him.  Click the link below for some quotes:

http://www.buddyrich.com/tribute.html

Then, there were the ones in his band who suffered at times when Buddy didn't feel that they were living up to his standards.  Here is the link for the actual text of the infamous "Bus Tape".  CAUTION - be aware that the text uses very vulgar language.  Buddy was known to "tell it like it is", and his vocabulary sometimes wouldn't fit in with the Church congregation, if you get my meaning.

http://www.bridgeboymusic.com/billyboy/mybuddy.htm


I personally went to five or six of Buddy's concerts, and like everyone else there, was absolutely mesmerized at his ability on the kit.  Once, I went through the autograph line after the show.  He was sitting at the table in the front part of the bus, talking animatedly to all the fans, signing everything from drum heads to admission ticket stubs.  When I stepped up to get his autograph, I said, "After seeing you play like that, I think I'll go out and burn my drums and get out of the business!"  He grinned at me and said "No, man, keep playin', don't ever quit - you'll hate yourself if you do that!"  

Well, I haven't quit yet, Buddy.  And I'm glad I took your advice.


Rest in peace, Superdrums.  (Click the link below)

http://www.seeing-stars.com/ImagePages/BuddyRichGravePhoto.shtml

Regards,
drumz1
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 07:01 AM
I think I'm the one drummer on this planet who doesn't think Buddy was as good as all the hype.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Louis Russell on April 06, 2003, 07:04 AM
Maybe not that good, but it was Buddy and Ringo who brought drumming to the masses.  Two of the reasons I am a drummer anyway.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: felix on April 06, 2003, 07:42 AM
 ::)

Love Buddy...when I feel I'm ready I'm really looking forward to the day when I can study his playing.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: organik on April 06, 2003, 07:53 AM
how can you *not* think he was good? have you ever heard him play? i remember hearing people claim his only skill was fast singles, but if you check out westside story suite or something along those lines, it'll become pretty clear that it extends beyond that.. =)

i definately agree that his main contribution was his influence though, from all accounts he sounds like a great showman. too bad us drummers dont have the front seat like we used to =(
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 06, 2003, 11:20 AM
     buddy was a true revolutionist. amazing player. one of my favorite his many skills was his wood-pecker solo's. Although he was pretty much the biggest jerk you could imagine to his band members, he gave an unsurpassed amount of creativity to the drumming world.  To this day, i don't see his hand speed being surpassed. What a mad man!  :o
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 11:39 AM
I would bet the two big V's (Virgil and Vinnie) have faster hands - not like that makes a drummer good, anyhow.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Carn on April 06, 2003, 12:27 PM
I would bet the two big V's (Virgil and Vinnie) have faster hands - not like that makes a drummer good, anyhow.

Donati certainly not has faster hands, according to my own experience with his clinics, and according to jim chapin;
"the guy practices 8 hours a day, but his hands arent all that"

About colaiuta, man, Vinnie is great, he does stuff buddy probably not even dreamt of, but I`m sure Rich would open a can of woopass if it came down to snare work
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 06, 2003, 01:36 PM
I would bet the two big V's (Virgil and Vinnie) have faster hands - not like that makes a drummer good, anyhow.

absolutly not... i've been to clinics with both Virgil and Vinnie... no comparison... and they'll tell you that themselves. that's just crazy talk
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 01:45 PM
Well, I've never heard or seen Buddy as fast as I've both heard and seen the two V's, so maybe it was a fluke when it happened.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 06, 2003, 01:48 PM
Well, I've never heard or seen Buddy as fast as I've both heard and seen the two V's, so maybe it was a fluke when it happened.

Seems to me that you really haven't ever listened to buddy. I mean really listened, not just hearing and seeing some clips. I mean listening to a whole cd and a whole video. Have you ever gotten any of his Big Band cd's? any of his videos? if you did, i think you'd see the error in your resoning
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 01:54 PM
Or maybe you should try the same with the guys I'm talking about?  And let me add something else - no, I don't think those guys are the fastest guys around, because I know of DCI guys that are incredible with their hands.  Then again, that's all they can do.

It just baffles me that so many people are hung up on Buddy when there were other drummers then and since then that have been just as innovative and incredible - Buddy wasn't the first, just the first one that brought drumming into the limelight (so people have been saying).  If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else.  I never have and never will understand the Buddy phenomenon.  Oh well.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 06, 2003, 02:10 PM
Or maybe you should try the same with the guys I'm talking about?  And let me add something else - no, I don't think those guys are the fastest guys around, because I know of DCI guys that are incredible with their hands.  Then again, that's all they can do.

It just baffles me that so many people are hung up on Buddy when there were other drummers then and since then that have been just as innovative and incredible - Buddy wasn't the first, just the first one that brought drumming into the limelight (so people have been saying).  If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else.  I never have and never will understand the Buddy phenomenon.  Oh well.

 ::) (enough said)
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: AndyDierker on April 06, 2003, 02:20 PM
This thread is pretty weird.

I think Buddy is great, but wanan know what always bugged me? His drum sound! I know it's a silly thing - I've just got no appreciation or taste for the old "vintage" drums. Or maybe it was the poor miking abilities back when he was playing. THey just always seemed like thuddy, papery, weak drums.

I'm just a 19 year old kid, and every drumset I've ever heard a blitzkrieg awesome player play has been a super-nice 100% maple drumset, so I want to disclaimer my statement by saying that I genuinely know jack-sh!t when it comes to vintage drums, or their appeal, or just about anything really. And I thought Buddy was a great player - GREAT. I loved the way he played his bass drum with a stick. He probably wasn'y the first, but teh first time I saw that I thought it was hilarious.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: drumz1 on April 06, 2003, 04:31 PM
Or maybe you should try the same with the guys I'm talking about?  And let me add something else - no, I don't think those guys are the fastest guys around, because I know of DCI guys that are incredible with their hands.  Then again, that's all they can do.

It just baffles me that so many people are hung up on Buddy when there were other drummers then and since then that have been just as innovative and incredible - Buddy wasn't the first, just the first one that brought drumming into the limelight (so people have been saying).  If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else.  I never have and never will understand the Buddy phenomenon.  Oh well.

Some of what you are saying is true.  There are lots of drummers who may, indeed, have the speedy sticks that Buddy possessed, but not too many have the finesse, chops, and imagination that he had.  You admit that some drummers are incredible with their hands, but that's all they can do.  Well, what you may learn is, there is a lot more to drumming than just being fast on the kit.  Rich had it ALL, and if you take the time to visit some of the current drum artist's webpages, you may find out that most of them were highly influenced by Buddy.  His technique on the snare alone raises the bar for all of us.  Watch some of his videos, especially the early ones.  I won't mention which website, but there is one which starts with the letter "k" that you can download a video of Buddy on a TV show in 1965.  Do a search for "video" on "Jerry Lewis" and look for a drum battle between him and Buddy Rich, then download it.

When you watch Buddy doing his solo, notice that when he is cross-sticking between the snare and the floor toms, sometimes he will cross the left stick UNDER the right hand, and other times he will cross the left stick OVER the right hand, all at a blazing speed.  Then ask yourself if you have ever seen the drummers you mentioned in your post do THAT.

And please don't try to blow it all off by saying "If it wasn't him, it would have been somebody else".  That's a copout, and you know it.  Sure there was "somebody else", such as Krupa, Roach, Mousey, and many, many more who influenced Buddy when he was coming up the ranks.  

I don't know how old you are, but it appears that you must be pretty young by your posts.  No offense here, but you really need to do some homework on the alltime "Greats" of drumming.  There is a reason that Buddy Rich was known as the world's greatest drummer, and I just don't think you have it figured out entirely.

Regards,
drumz1
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Louis Russell on April 06, 2003, 04:55 PM
 If it wasn't him, it would have been someone else.  I never have and never will understand the Buddy phenomenon.  Oh well.

Yes, there probably would have been someone else if not Buddy!  The thing is, Buddy is the one who did it.  Take the light bulb for instance, the one Edison made was really dim and didn't last long.  By today's standards it was a total waste, BUT Edison was the one who invented the light bulb.  Even if his is not great by todays standards he still gets credit for his work.  Its the same with Buddy.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 04:56 PM
When you watch Buddy doing his solo, notice that when he is cross-sticking between the snare and the floor toms, sometimes he will cross the left stick UNDER the right hand, and other times he will cross the left stick OVER the right hand, all at a blazing speed.  Then ask yourself if you have ever seen the drummers you mentioned in your post do THAT.


Virgil can do that... and more.  Much more.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Carn on April 06, 2003, 05:01 PM
Han, ever went to a donati clinic? Or did you just "download video's of the net"?

Donati has great chops, but man, He isnt -that- great, I saw jim chapin 3 meters in front of me, that man is 83, and has a hand technique that donati can't touch.

Almost everyone can be a great chops drummer, if they practice insane amounts of time, but there are things that dont appear trough practice, and Buddy Rich has enough of those things that still stand out today.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: tainteddrummer on April 06, 2003, 07:34 PM
wow...  i didn't know ppl from that time period could possibly curse that much... i can't even say @$%# in front of my grandmother.... weird...  
   .. anyway.. back to the point... the stuff i heard  by buddy so far amazes me. his solo's are awesome, amazing speed, great fills, good time....
  i don't know how any drummer could NOT think of him as a great influence
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 06, 2003, 07:52 PM
Han, ever went to a donati clinic? Or did you just "download video's of the net"?

Donati has great chops, but man, He isnt -that- great, I saw jim chapin 3 meters in front of me, that man is 83, and has a hand technique that donati can't touch.

Almost everyone can be a great chops drummer, if they practice insane amounts of time, but there are things that dont appear trough practice, and Buddy Rich has enough of those things that still stand out today.

Haven't been in person, but I have three clinics in their entirety on videotape - bootlegs.  I'd say that's as good as being there, especially since I can go back to see exactly what he's doing.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Gadda on April 07, 2003, 05:50 AM
Quote
I won't mention which website, but there is one which starts with the letter "k" that you can download a video of Buddy on a TV show in 1965.  Do a search for "video" on "Jerry Lewis" and look for a drum battle between him and Buddy Rich

Ive done that ... amazing technique !!

Its actually everything ive heard of buddy rich.
I would like some tips for albums to buy ( or go to the k website  ;D ) to hear some more of him playing. Anyone got something to recommend ? I would really appreciate it

Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: SteveG on April 07, 2003, 07:04 AM
I have to jump in here. Han Steevo my brother, get a grip. Virgil, great chops, independence etc., but have you ever heard the man swing? I haven't and I doubt that he could. Name me one shredder who can swing? Playing fast singles and ostinatos is only a tiny-tiny portion of what we do as drummers.

I'll put Joe Morello's chops, who turns 74 in July against Virgil (yeah, I know this sounds silly). And the independence stuff, Joe was doing it fifty years ago. Your just uninformed about it. Virgil hasn't re-invented the wheel here. I sat and spoke to Joe about Buddy. He is humbled by Buddy's chops. That says a lot for a master like Joe Morello who has done more for the drumming community that V and V, to be humbled by Buddy's chops. Wow!

BTW, when was the last time you heard Virgil driving a big band? I'm still waiting for your answer.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 07, 2003, 08:04 AM
I don't think I ever said that Virgil could swing like Buddy - or even swing that well.  Someone made the comment that Buddy had the fastest singles and that's why I threw in Virgil.  Sure, playing independence-oriented rhythms isn't anything new, but what Virgil and Minneman can do is incredible.

I'm not going to start comparing who can swing better, because that's simply opinion.  As for me, I like Vinnie Colaiuta a hell of a lot more than Buddy for everything.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Mister Acrolite on April 07, 2003, 08:38 AM
Virgil can do that... and more.  Much more.

Virgil has what I call "drum clinic chops." He is capable of truly amazing stuff, with speed, independence, and flash out the wazoo. But apparently only when he's playing by himself.

I've seen him live with a band, and he bored me to tears. He brought NONE of that fire, excitement, or unique ability to his gig, and he was playing with freakin' Steve Vai, which is a great opportunity to play some amazing stuff if ever there was one. He just pounded away sounding and looking like every average rock drummer I've ever seen. Then, when he got a drum solo, he went nuts, and played some truly unbelievable stuff, complete with lots of flash - really amazing stuff. But after the solo, he went right back to being Joe Generic.

To me that was very illuminating. I think he's a great drummer, but I don't think much of him as a musician.

That was Buddy's strength. Same for  Vinnie, Steve Smith, Gadd, Bozzio  and Weckl - they all sound amazing playing MUSIC, not just drum solos. Buddy was an amazing accompanist, and exciting as hell to watch whether he was playing a blazing solo, or just playing brushes on a ballad. Each of the guys I named totally kick @ss live, driving their bands up to a higher level. Virgil totally phoned in the gig unless the spotlight was on him. NOT a sign of a mature musician.

With his incredible technical facility, he has the potential to be an amazing musician. But he ain't there yet. Drumming (to me) is far more than a measure of what challenging things you can do with your arms and legs - it's about making music sound good. Guys like Buddy, Vinnie, etc. know how to do that while simultaneously playing jaw-dropping stuff on the drums. In my opinion, Virgil's not even in the same league, at least not yet.

I say this having seen ALL of these drummers LIVE, not just on videos.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 07, 2003, 08:46 AM
well said Mr. A ;)
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: paul on April 07, 2003, 09:14 AM
I agree.  Buddy wasn't just a chopsmeister.  He was a musician.  Every band he played with got immediately better.

Somebody asked for album recommendations.  My own favorites are "Swinging New Big Band," with the West Side Story medley, "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy," for Channel 1 Suite, "Wham!" just because it kicks butt, and "Time Being."

Also, check out "Art Tatum Group Masterpieces - Volume  3."  Buddy plays behind Tatum and Lionel Hampton, with no bassist, and rarely comes to the front.  An excellent example of his ability to play in a small group.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: KevinD on April 07, 2003, 11:01 AM
Virgil has what I call "drum clinic chops." He is capable of truly amazing stuff, with speed, independence, and flash out the wazoo. But apparently only when he's playing by himself.


Have to agree with Mr. A here. Chops are fine, but they are only a means to an end. The end goal is to make music.

In reference to Buddy Rich, I did have the opportunity to see him with his big band a few times when I was a young,  impressionable drummer.

Yeah, he had great chops (by my definition anyway)  but what struck me was the way he drove the band, the way he comped the soloists and the way he set up the kicks with the brass sections. It sounded great, everything was tasteful as well as powerful where needed, the playing had dynamics that  perfectly compimented the songs. That is what making music is all about.

Jeff Porcaro never played very busily, and never exhibited a lot of flash (although I'm certain he had the ability) but he could say more in 4 bars of time with his feel than most drummers could in a full clinic. He made music, the fact that he was an  'A list" session player who backed a number hit records and with Toto and major artists attests to that fact.

In another example of taste vs. speed. Take a listen to the Bee Gees tracks on the Saturday Night Fever record. I'm no disco fan and the drumming there won't be confused with anything Virgil Donati has done but the feel and the grooves are amazing. It perfectly suits the music which appealed to millions of people. I'd like to think the drum tracks had some responsibility for that.  

That is Steve Gadd and he displays the ultimate in taste and musicality for that situation. I'm sure we've all heard him in other situations with other artists where the music calls for him to play way out and a over the top. He rarely disappoints there either. Bottom line is that he's making music.

Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Ratamatatt on April 07, 2003, 01:20 PM
I think I'm the one drummer on this planet who doesn't think Buddy was as good as all the hype.

Han,

Your musical ear if not your sanity has been seriously called into question.  

I had the opportunity to see him play on two occasions.  IMHO, not only did, and does, Buddy have the greatest chops ever developed (and I don't believe for a minute his contention that he never practiced - impossible), he is the best musician to ever sit behind a drum kit.  When you see Buddy play a single stroke solo for 4 minutes at a tempo faster than most can play for 4 bars, and spontaniously make music that could only come from the mind of Buddy Rich, then you'll get it.  Sure some of Buddy's ideas have become cliche's, that is the stuff others are able to play, but they were Buddy's ideas.  I think it is safe to say that Buddy Rich has more imitators, who themselves are great drummers, than any other drummer in history.  I only wish that I had the physical gift to try to be a BR imitator.

And if nothing else, Buddy had great taste in other drummers.  According to Buddy, Steve Gadd was his favorite drummer, besides himself, I'm sure.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Ratamatatt on April 07, 2003, 01:23 PM
I would bet the two big V's (Virgil and Vinnie) have faster hands - not like that makes a drummer good, anyhow.

The only drummer I've seen who might have faster hands than Buddy (but not the stamina) is Danny Gottleib in concert with Pat Metheny.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 07, 2003, 01:24 PM
buddy was a true monster on the kit. the only way to describe his skill is insane. whether it's monster chops, or light jazz, he's got it.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Ratamatatt on April 07, 2003, 01:29 PM
Quote
I won't mention which website, but there is one which starts with the letter "k" that you can download a video of Buddy on a TV show in 1965.  Do a search for "video" on "Jerry Lewis" and look for a drum battle between him and Buddy Rich

Ive done that ... amazing technique !!

Its actually everything ive heard of buddy rich.
I would like some tips for albums to buy ( or go to the k website  ;D ) to hear some more of him playing. Anyone got something to recommend ? I would really appreciate it

There are 4 recent complilations of the Best of BR.  One that I have is called "The Pacific Years" one is called "Big Swing Face" one is called "Wham" and I'm not sure of the other.  If you buy one, the liner notes should tell you about the others.  As for speed, check out the 4 bar single stroke roll toward the end of "Love For Sale" on the Pacific Years album.  OMG!  He's a freak of nature.

Ratamatatt
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Mister Acrolite on April 07, 2003, 02:03 PM
There are 4 recent complilations of the Best of BR.  One that I have is called "The Pacific Years" one is called "Big Swing Face" one is called "Wham" and I'm not sure of the other.  

 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/b00000db1h/002-0247112-6304865]THIS  is my favorite BR compilation. It was released in the 70's as a double album called SuperPak, but now it's on a single CD called The Buddy Rich Collection. It doesn't have any of the big drum-solo staples like West Side or Channel One - just some great big band tunes with Buddy kicking the hell out of them. Great stuff.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Scott on April 07, 2003, 03:31 PM
Also check out "This One's for Basie."

There is no doubt Buddy KNEW how to swing a band.   8)
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Paul DAngelo on April 07, 2003, 03:54 PM
I think I'm the one drummer on this planet who doesn't think Buddy was as good as all the hype.
Look like you possibly may be the only drummer on the planet that thinks that.  

He did it all and he did a lot of it first.  I agree with Mr_A about Virgil Donati, the one time (only once, I admit) I saw him, his solos were unbelievable, his band's music was boring.

Is Louis Armstrong any less of a legend because there are trumpet players that are technically better than he was, or is his artisitic ability called into play?

Except for obvious examples where someone is just learning to play, it's incredibly inaccurate to "compare" any two artists.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Han Steevo on April 07, 2003, 07:02 PM
For the Nth time... I only compared Virgil's speed to Buddy (which IS faster, btw - I'd like to hear Buddy approach 16ths at 300bpm with singles).  Vinnie Colaiuta, on the other hand, I do believe is a better drummer all-round than Buddy.  He's faster and has a more advanced feel.  Buddy was good - very good - for his time.  There are many drummers now that smoke him.  Sorry guys.   :-\

If you guys don't see that, then you need to remove the blinders.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 07, 2003, 07:05 PM
For the Nth time... I only compared Virgil's speed to Buddy (which IS faster, btw - I'd like to hear Buddy approach 16ths at 300bpm with singles).  Vinnie Colaiuta, on the other hand, I do believe is a better drummer all-round than Buddy.  He's faster and has a more advanced feel.  Buddy was good - very good - for his time.  There are many drummers now that smoke him.  Sorry guys.   :-\

If you guys don't see that, then you need to remove the blinders.

ignorance isn't bliss in this case  ::)

Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Damo_Syzygy on April 07, 2003, 07:21 PM
As much of a prick that Buddy was, he was an insanely talented prick.

Im with the majority here. I was not old enough to remember Buddy Rich but his stuff is still accessible and its mind boggling what he can do. I have met Virgil Several times, aswell as watched him practise on a 3 hour stint, and I can tell you he's also amazing, but no buddy.

Keep in mind also that the requirements of the day were a lot different. Its very easy these days to just slap on another tom or cymbal and create new sounds, but guys like Buddy were pioneers in doing more with less, that alone is worth credit.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RelientKngOdrums on April 07, 2003, 07:32 PM
han steevo... if you truly believe what you're saying about Virgil having better chops than Buddy, you should email him.  I think it'd be cool to see what Virgil says about it. I will garantee that he's humble enough to know that he hasn't met buddy's hands, at least not yet.  I'm not being sarcastic or mean at all with this request, i'm being sincere. I think it be cool to email him, and afterward, copy and paste to let us check out what he says.
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Gadda on April 08, 2003, 05:28 AM
I just wanted to say thanks for the buddy rich albums recommendations you guys gave.

Now its time to go to the record store  ;D
Title: Re:Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Ratamatatt on April 08, 2003, 02:19 PM
For the Nth time... I only compared Virgil's speed to Buddy (which IS faster, btw - I'd like to hear Buddy approach 16ths at 300bpm with singles).  Vinnie Colaiuta, on the other hand, I do believe is a better drummer all-round than Buddy.  He's faster and has a more advanced feel.  Buddy was good - very good - for his time.  There are many drummers now that smoke him.  Sorry guys.   :-\

If you guys don't see that, then you need to remove the blinders.

Han, I'm sorry to have to say this man but, I'm afraid it's confirmed - you're insane.  But seriously, if you believe what you've said, you just havn't listened to Buddy.  When it comes to pure chops, he's a freak of nature.  There is no one else who can do it like Buddy.  That's not to say that Vinnie isn't also a freak of nature in a different way (I've never heard Virgil Donati play so I have no opinion about him), but he simply can't play like Buddy Rich.  IMHO, as great as Vinnie is, and as great of a chart reader as he is, he's not one of the 10 best big band drummers today.  BR was the best big band drummer ever.  If you don't like the big band sound, and many young drummers don't, that's another matter.  

To prove my point, check out the tribute to Buddy Rich with Steve Gadd, Dave Weckle and Vinnie playing with the Buddy Rich Big Band.  They're all great, but they can't play like BR.  They don't have his hands, his sound, his attitude or his musical sensibilities.  As much of a curmudgeon as Buddy was when he got older, you'll notice that when BR was playing, he's always got a broad smile on his face with his huge mouth full of  teeth showing.  And his smile reflected his musical taste.  BR's musical taste was impecible.  IMHO, I've never heard him play a note that wasn't the right note to play at the time he played it.  To further prove my point, if you want to check out a guy who I think has a claim to the best "living" big band drummer, check out Duffy Jackson - a former Buddy Rich student.  There's nobody out there today who can swing like Duffy, nobody.

Don't give up Han, I truly believe there's hope for you.  (Psst, pass the thorazine, quick)!

Ratamatatt
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: victor on June 22, 2003, 07:59 PM
hes the best no doubt. theres nobody that can touch him, and there never will be another buddy.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Monk Man on June 22, 2003, 10:04 PM
opinions are like...well, we all know the rest of that phrase.

nice troll Han Steevo. ;D
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Roger Beverage on June 23, 2003, 07:38 AM
Might as well give up guys, Mr Steevo has dug in his heels and refuses to budge. It's his loss.

Roger
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: felix on June 23, 2003, 07:56 AM
han was booted out of here several months ago, don't expect an answer anytime soon.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Mister Acrolite on June 23, 2003, 08:54 AM
han was booted out of here several months ago, don't expect an answer anytime soon.

Han wasn't booted - he got mad and deleted himself from the Cafe.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: thomasarey on June 23, 2003, 11:08 AM
wow...great thread here....I'm always facinated by these comparisons....
just my $.02......Virgil couldn't swing in a HAMMOCK compared to Buddy....he could swing any band into bad health any and every night he played....

I saw Virgil's clinics a few times, seen him play with his drum machine and was very impressed by the FACILITY he has on the kit....but.....as we know....music is the focus....Buddy could make anyone sound good....because of how supportive he would play...he had the biggest ears in the world and knew how to use em'.  My teacher used to tell me "if you focus on making everyone else sound good then they're going to make you sound good....and then you've got a good sounding band"....
Self indulgence and "why....because I CAN"....has no place in music...
Again...just my $.02.....make it a buck fitty.....
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: felix on June 23, 2003, 01:01 PM
Oh, how could I have forgotten!

Very common around here, people putting a mouse to their heads and ending it all with a single click.

It's like "I just realized I don't know everything in the world about drumming- time to end it all!--Good bye Cruel Drummer Cafe" - new motto Har Har
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Christopher on June 23, 2003, 01:46 PM
Oh, how could I have forgotten!

Very common around here, people putting a mouse to their heads and ending it all with a single click.

It's like "I just realized I don't know everything in the world about drumming- time to end it all!--Good bye Cruel Drummer Cafe" - new motto Har Har

 ;D

Right you are. Too many "you don't think like I do...waaaaaa. I'm going home. waaaaaa" types in the world.

We are bound to have a few here as well.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Joe on June 23, 2003, 03:23 PM
So, what's this I hear about the VF Buddy Rich signature drumstick not being designed by Buddy himself?
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Matt Self (Gaddabout) on June 23, 2003, 04:00 PM
"Hawaiin War Chant" with the Tommy Dorsey Band. Extended duo with Buddy and a trumper player. Absolutely insane musicianship (and showmanship!). I dub it the beginning of art rock. hehehe
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Drumbo on June 24, 2003, 07:32 AM
Quote
As much of a prick that Buddy was, he was an insanely talented prick

There are indeed instances of Buddy reacting to some situations where you could say this. In almost every instance though, you will find it's the veteran of half-a-century in the music business reacting to the smart alec attitude of some unknown youngster who had neither the tact nor the smarts not to challenge the Alpha male.

Buddy was at one time the highest paid sideman in the music business. The Marquee read: "The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra with Buddy Rich - featuring Frank Sinatra" -  Buddy got top billing over Frank if you can imagine a  drummer being that popular! It had never happened before and it hasn't happened since.

Even as Buddy and Frank battled over billing that sometimes ended in brawls and fisticuffs - a rivalry that was epic in show business proportions - it was Frank that loaned Buddy the money to finance his own bands when all was said and done. It was Buddy that Frank choose on more than a few occasions to back him on his world tours. Despite their fights in the 40's they became close friends bonded by the blood they had shed for their music.

Bassie, Ellington, James, Hawkins and 'Traine . . . all loved Buddy and have said so many times. Jerry Lewis, Sammy Davis, Jr., and scores of others lined up behind Buddy to testify of his enduring friendship and gentle side. Many of the guys in Buddy's bands were his close friends and respected mentors; great artists like Art Pepper and Don Menza!

It's always some unknown youngster who's only claim to fame was that he broke Buddy's rules and smuggled a recorder in to document Buddy's wrath who give Buddy his "prick" image, imho.

There were  guys that crossed Buddy and there were feuds during his almost 70-year career, there's no doubt - but, much more often than not, Buddy was loved by the guys (and girls) who sat in his band even though he was a demanding perfectionist. When I hear an isolated tape of some idiot from Buddy's band, on Buddy's bus, telling Buddy he's not going to honor Buddy's dress code, I fall down laughing.

Buddy played his heart out every night of his life from the age of 3 with a very few exceptions (when he was in the Marines or too sick). He gave more to show business than any of us can imagine and what he gave to drumming was to make it an art form - a respected and revered art form - and he set a standard that very few will ever reach, even now with all of our slick technologies, "improved methods" and 50 years of hind-sight to study and analyze his every move. Nine out of ten drummers are still stunned and amazed when they see - or more often hear Buddy's genius in the days before video was common. He put his reputation on the line every gig - and he never, ever compromised his integrety.

Columbus may not have been the greatest explorer to ever live - he was looking for India - but, he'll always be remembered for what he did, "evil white man"; or not. Buddy was that kind of pioneer - he blazed  trails that some of us are still stumbling through - and the fact that someone 50 years later can do this or that as good as Buddy did it is to be expected. The awesome thing is  that so few can even approach it and none have ever surpassed him!

I've strayed from where I was going, which is very easy when talking about Buddy - there's such a rich history and so much fertile musical ground to be covered . . . but people who showed Buddy the respect he deserved very often were respected in return. Very few of Buddy's musicians bad-mouthed him despite Buddy's constant demands for perfection. They'lltell you that in the 70's and 80's that Buddy's "kiddie" bands were the best boot camp in the business and those who played by Buddy's rules were generously rewarded. If you were serious about being excellent, Buddy's bus was the place to be.


Just my 2¢
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Joe on June 24, 2003, 07:47 AM
I was about to post that I wouldn't have minded playing with Buddy, then I realized....... :P  ::)
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Nick on June 24, 2003, 08:30 AM
I was about to post that I wouldn't have minded playing with Buddy, then I realized....... :P  ::)
LOL!

Cleaning tea off my monitor as a direct result of that post...  ;D

 :)

N

Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Joe on June 24, 2003, 11:29 AM
Quote
When I hear an isolated tape of some idiot from Buddy's band, on Buddy's bus, telling Buddy he's not going to honor Buddy's dress code, I fall down laughing.

I totally agree with this and the rest of your post, Drumbo -- I just had to say that I do find it a bit ironic that Buddy was complaining that the trumpetist was "blowing [Buddy's] ear out".... ;D
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Gregg Rivers on June 24, 2003, 01:07 PM
I wonder if ANY of you remember Buddy's appearance on The Muppet show? That man took a pair of sticks and proceeded to play on everything (furniture and any other prop in his path) from his dressing room down the stair (remember the set) and out to the stage with some amazing licks and NEVER missed a beat! I was in high school the first time I saw that and was floored! The punch line was Fozzy Bear saying "Now that playing the HOUSE!"
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Ratamatatt on June 24, 2003, 01:16 PM
Buddy was at one time the highest paid sideman in the music business. The Marquee read: "The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra with Buddy Rich - featuring Frank Sinatra" -  Buddy got top billing over Frank if you can imagine a  drummer being that popular! It had never happened before and it hasn't happened since.


Except for Gene Krupa who was even better known by the public and probably better paid.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Drumbo on June 24, 2003, 04:13 PM
Except for Gene Krupa who was even better known by the public and probably better paid.

In 1938, Buddy debuted on the downbeat poll at # 17. In 1939 he was up to #4. After that he consistently came in at #1 in the readers poll and if I'm not mistaken, he beat Krupa every year until 1943 when Buddy was away in the Marine Corps - in Mel Tormé's words, Buddy was "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" that year.

Despite beating Buddy, Krupa's career as a bandleader was on the ropes due to his arrest and conviction  for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor", and it was Benny Goodman who offered Gene his old seat with the Goodman Band. That didn't last long though as Goodman disliked being overshadowed by Gene's flamboyant performances and by 1944, Tommy Dorsey who was sorely missing his ace drummerman Buddy, offered Krupa, Rich's throne in the Dorsey organization.

For the next four and a half months, Krupa reigned as the hottest drum property in swing music until Buddy was discharged from the Marines and returned from his $33 a month GI gig to become the "highest paid sideman" in the history of the music world with the Dorsey orchestra.

It is known that Rich turned down Art Michaud's (Dorsey's manager) initial offer of $500 a week, and only after the ante was significantly boosted did Rich take his old job back pushing Dorsey's crew and displacing Gene Krupa. Gene never reached a fraction of Buddy's earning-power after that and the slightly older Krupa never again managed to over-shadow Buddy's rising star in the polls or the box-office.

Buddy and Gene were great friends and Buddy Rich held Gene in respectful awe as the man who single-handedly brought drums to the forefront. Buddy went out of his way on many occasions to help Gene's sagging career after 1943, even according to many historians and observers, cutting Gene some slack during many of their famous drum battles so as not to embarrass his influential mentor. It was the great Gene Krupa who called his friend Buddy "the greatest drummer to ever draw breath."  I agree with Gene, "God broke the mold."


Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Big Yummy on June 25, 2003, 07:32 AM
Bah!  I still prefer Gene Krupa.  There's so much more fun and humour in his playing.  Chops, schmops.

Besides, I might be able to learn some of Krupa's stuff.  Buddy's stuff is from Mars.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Drumbo on June 26, 2003, 07:17 AM
lol! Gene was a monster.

I'll say it's certainly much more fair to "compare" the drummers of 60 years ago to each other than to try comparing Buddy or Gene to Vinnie, Virgil, Art or whoever is playing drums today. Buddy had some fantastic contemporaries in Max Roach, Gene Krupa, Chick Web, Art Blakey and Eddie Tough just to name a few, and they all had an even playing field. Using calf skin heads, 1938 "state-of-the-art" foot pedals, flimsy hardware, sticks and even considering computer-aided cymbal technologies that have advanced light years in our own lifetimes makes their accomplishments that much more notable and awesome.  

Just as it's unfair to compare the World War II pilots of P-51 Mustangs to the feats of F-118 or Harrier jet pilots of today, it's silly to compare today's drummers to the great drummers of yesteryear imho. The very fact that it comes up so often in this and other forums attests to the remarkable skills that each of our drumming forefathers possessed! Think about it.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Darren on June 30, 2003, 12:19 AM
Drumbo, you said vinnie virgil art, then you mentioned art blakey.  Did you mean art blakey or art verdi because blakey is dead.  I don't know if you know that.  The next thing about vinnie playing with gadd and weckl on that rich vid.  I think weckl and gadd fit in that rich band better than vinnie did.  vinnie played to many complicated things in the buddy fills with that band.  vinnie thought he was playing with elvin's group that night I guess.  I know it's a crime to say any negative about vinnie and I know you guys would chase me with clubs to my death so being I'm safe I'm sayin it ha! lol
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Darren on June 30, 2003, 12:23 AM
by the way guys I think vinnie is a great great drummer too but he just didn't fit in with that band just don't get me wrong about the great talent that man has.  The difference between buddy and anybody else was, rich fit in with any band from the day he started pro drumming.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Jon E on June 30, 2003, 08:05 AM
(The following statement is made with complete comfort in my own masculinity:)

Gene was cuter than Buddy!

Then again, EVERYBODY was cuter than Buddy!
I think image was starting to be part of the music world even as those two took their places.

Also,
I met Buddy Rich once after a show.  I was about 13 and really just starting as a drumset drummer.  He called me onto his bus where he sat in the A/C to sign autographs.  Though I cannot remember what we talked about (probably had something to do with drums!), our 3 or 4 minute conversation was very pleasant, and he was all teeth and smiles.  A great moment in my life.  THAT is the only Buddy Rich I know personally.

Now, he could have torn the whole band new a**holes once the bus got rolling, but that day, at that moment he was as great, and as cordial as I could have ever hoped.
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: RHSquonk on June 30, 2003, 08:29 AM
In 1979 I had the privilige of seeing Buddy play live. I was all hot on the drummers of the day and my grandfather though I needed some perspective. Boy was he right! I had never seen ( and never since) anything like him. amazing.
I also had a similar experience to Jon E.'s. I met with him for an autograph ( which is still my prized possesion...after the bride of course  ;) ) and shook his hand. I don't think I washed it for a week. I also spent the next few days at the library getting anything I could find with him playing and listened until I wore the grooves out.
He was soooo nice and as with Jon E., I could not even tell you what we talked about...but the guy took the time to shake hands and speak with this pathetic little kid who worshiped him. Say what you will...THATS a class act.
I have met ALOT of music heavyweights in my time and the only one who left that big an impression on me as Buddy did, was Les Paul (Also a class act).
Buddy was THE MAN and as Gene said...the greatest drummer to ever draw breath.
-RHS
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: PJJ on June 30, 2003, 10:48 AM
Just wondering if any of you guys know if Buddy was addicted. I have heard some rumours about this, but cant believe it.  
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Doedrums on June 30, 2003, 04:52 PM
I wonder if ANY of you remember Buddy's appearance on The Muppet show? That man took a pair of sticks and proceeded to play on everything (furniture and any other prop in his path) from his dressing room down the stair (remember the set) and out to the stage with some amazing licks and NEVER missed a beat! I was in high school the first time I saw that and was floored! The punch line was Fozzy Bear saying "Now that playing the HOUSE!"

That folks, it what got me hooked on playing drums!!
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: JeepnDrummer on June 30, 2003, 10:40 PM
I wonder if ANY of you remember Buddy's appearance on The Muppet show? That man took a pair of sticks and proceeded to play on everything (furniture and any other prop in his path) from his dressing room down the stair (remember the set) and out to the stage with some amazing licks and NEVER missed a beat! I was in high school the first time I saw that and was floored! The punch line was Fozzy Bear saying "Now that playing the HOUSE!"
Absolutely!  I remember that scene of him on the stairs and he was playing on the railing.  I was in awe!  Funny you should mention that Louderdb, because I often think about it.

Tom
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: nudrum on July 04, 2003, 05:20 PM
I just bought Big Swing Face by Buddy Rich, recorded in 1966.
It isn't fantastic but it's got alot of tunes on it, including Love For Sell.
On at least one of his solos I noticed he is doing rimshots on the snare that seem to be changing pitch. Whether he is putting pressure on the head of the drum or what, I don't know. But it is cool ;D!
Title: Buddy Rich - The Light Side, The Dark Side, and Somewhere in between
Post by: Drumbo on July 05, 2003, 11:20 AM
Just wondering if any of you guys know if Buddy was addicted. I have heard some rumours about this, but cant believe it.

Addicted to what? Drugs?

I know of no biographer that has made such an outrageous claim. In "Traps", Mel Torme does say that Buddy was "a life-long pot smoker", although I can't recall him ever making any specific eye-witness accounts. It's not that I disbelieve Mel Torme, Buddy's friend of more than 40 years; but even if true, pot smoking is hardly considered an addiction.

The John Minahan book is interesting in that respect in that he traveled with and hung out with Buddy over an eleven month period and never mentions Buddy smoking pot. Even more curious, I was surprised to find out that it was Minahan who presented Buddy with the infamous "Marijuana Pickers Local Union No. 13" T-shirt at 1974's Canadian National Exhibition which Buddy immediately put on for the show and displayed as a prized possession. It is presented in the book as an inside joke that commemorated Minahan's first meeting with Buddy when the talk turned to Buddy's 1967 pot bust in Australia which he, his manager and his lawyer contended was a total frame-up, and if the story related by Buddy and Stanley Kay in the book is true, it was a set-up (the small bag of pot was allegedly found taped inside the tank of the toilet in Buddy's hotel room - and could have been placed there by any guest who ever stayed in that room, an employee or by one of the 20 or so arresting officers who roused him from sleep and tossed his room at 4:00 am, as Buddy seems to think). It was a charge that would not have held up in any US court - do you check the toilet tank when you check into a Hotel? Bah!

Unlike Torme, Minahan never makes the allegation that Buddy ever smoked pot in his presence or that he smoked it at all. I found that an interesting contrast to Torme's statement, and I do feel that Minahan would have "gone there" had Buddy's use been so blatant.

Like many drummers and music lovers, I've made Buddy a life-long research project and I've never heard such an malevolent claim other than a single deleted topic here at this board (BTW Bart - that deletion showed real class pal). Buddy seldom even drank a cocktail if his biographers are to be believed. There's no evidence to support that Buddy ever used hard drugs and it's irresponsible to perpetuate such myths.

As recounted in Minahan's book, Buddy did give Drug Prevention Drum Clinics in poor neighborhoods without pay and his only condition was that he refused to allow the press to attend or publicise the events.

Buddy Rich was addicted to perfection.