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charlie watts bothers me

Started by onmyown, February 06, 2006, 10:45 AM

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NPYYZ

Quote from: Louis on March 14, 2006, 01:27 PM
Since when is music required to be a challenge?  If it is fun to play and the crowds love it thats more than enough for me.   8)

I promised myself I was done with this subject but I have to respond. Some of you are reading things that  I am not saying. I didn't say music has to be a challenge, I said those particular songs offered me no challenge. Heck I played in top 40 cover bands for years and 85% of the songs we played were simple, I made a good living and had a great time, no problem.

PS: I'd also like to add that I don't dislike the Stones or Charlie Watts. I happen to like the older Rolling Stones stuff. I have several of their older albums.

Tony

My final word?  I think you over value chops heavy drumming and undervalue groove.  Anyone with rudimentary skills can play the beats behind AC/DC or Stones songs, of that there is little debate.  To do it it succesfully, over the years, in a major, world reknown rock and roll band, while having every swinging d!ck marching corps, Mike Portnoy, Neil Peart clone bash your style isn't.  

A big difficulty in today's music business is remaining true to oneself and music, depsite what everyone and their mother says about you.  It doesn't matter if your Marilyn Manson or Charlie Watts.  The Stones have prevailed doing exactly what the Stones do for over 40 years.  Do you need anymore proof than that?  I mean, rock and roll is only 55 years old.  They are the one of, if not the longest continuous rock band still making relevant music today.  

And just for the record, Neil Peart is one of my biggest influences and favorite drummers (and people here will tell you I'll defend him more ferociusly than anyone), so I'm not anti-chops or prog.  I guess I just got bored with it when I got to college and realized how much more challenging music there was out there.  

Nice kit, BTW, I really see a lot of Neil Peart in your design and layout.  I guess I look at like this:  While Neil Peart's drum parts are unique, they are unique to him, much like Charlie Watts.  It's not impressive to me when someone plays Rush tunes note for note, like say in a Rush tribute band.  I find copying Neil's drum parts fairly easy as well, since I've been doing it for about 25 years myself.  It's creating those parts and songs that I find impressive, same as the Stones.  Remaining true to one's heart.  

Like you said, it could go on forever, so I'm out.

NPYYZ

Quote from: Tony on March 14, 2006, 01:40 PM
My final word?  I think you over value chops heavy drumming and undervalue groove.  Anyone with rudimentary skills can play the beats behind AC/DC or Stones songs, of that there is little debate.  To do it it succesfully, over the years, in a major, world reknown rock and roll band, while having every swinging d!ck marching corps, Mike Portnoy, Neil Peart clone bash your style isn't.  

A big difficulty in today's music business is remaining true to oneself and music, depsite what everyone and their mother says about you.  It doesn't matter if your Marilyn Manson or Charlie Watts.  The Stones have prevailed doing exactly what the Stones do for over 40 years.  Do you need anymore proof than that?  I mean, rock and roll is only 55 years old.  They are the one of, if not the longest continuous rock band still making relevant music today.  

And just for the record, Neil Peart is one of my biggest influences and favorite drummers (and people here will tell you I'll defend him more ferociusly than anyone), so I'm not anti-chops or prog.  I guess I just got bored with it when I got to college and realized how much more challenging music there was out there.  

Nice kit, BTW, I really see a lot of Neil Peart in your design and layout.  I guess I look at like this:  While Neil Peart's drum parts are unique, they are unique to him, much like Charlie Watts.  It's not impressive to me when someone plays Rush tunes note for note, like say in a Rush tribute band.  I find copying Neil's drum parts fairly easy as well, since I've been doing it for about 25 years myself.  It's creating those parts and songs that I find impressive, same as the Stones.  Remaining true to one's heart.  

Like you said, it could go on forever, so I'm out.



I can agree with that   ;D

DougB

Next up:  "Max Weinberg bothers me" thread

Ranman

Quote from: DougB on March 15, 2006, 06:59 AM
Next up:  "Max Weinberg bothers me" thread

And then it will be SOOOOOOO ONNNNNNNNN!!!!!

NPYYZ

Quote from: DougB on March 15, 2006, 06:59 AM
Next up:  "Max Weinberg bothers me" thread

Or even better a "What's the difference between Max Weinberg and Charlie Watts" thread.     :o

Tony

Quote from: NPYYZ on March 15, 2006, 08:16 AM
Or even better a "What's the difference between Max Weinberg and Charlie Watts" thread.     :o

About 20 years and 30 million dollars ;D


DougB

Quote from: Ranman on March 15, 2006, 07:58 AM
And then it will be SOOOOOOO ONNNNNNNNN!!!!!

For the record, Max DOES bother me.  I cringe when I see him on the Conan show.

Christopher

Quote from: DougB on March 15, 2006, 11:05 AM
For the record, Max DOES bother me.  I cringe when I see him on the Conan show.

Really?  ???

I find that I've gained more respect for him after seeing him on the Conan O'Brian Show. He of course has done some cool stuff with Springsteen, but I hadn't ever seen him stretch out like he does now.

The man can play.

His crossovers and speed are pretty incredible.

I try to make it a practice to find the good in players. Charlie and Max have ââ,¬Å"goodââ,¬Â to spare in my opinion.



Mister Acrolite

Max has some pretty serious back problems, and is usually trussed up pretty tight when he plays. That may make him look stiff, but if you close your eyes, I think you'll find he doesn't sound stiff at all.

Everytime I've seen him with Bruce he has absolutely KILLED.

Jon E

I believe Max overcame (or adapted to) some pretty serious Carpal Tunnel-type injuries/stress.

I think his playing style has changed from the early days.

TnT

I've always loved Charlie Watts. Not because he can play a fast single stroke roll, or has some kind of technical thing that makes me go wow. He's musical. It's so rare sometimes to see a drummer that makes it happen musically it's sad. But I think it isn't a genre thing really. Whatever suits what you're playing. I'm not a big metal fan, but hey I've watched metal players and have appreciated a great player who makes it happen. Ring Starr blows me away sometimes when I listen to Beatles records, the power of 4 booms placed just right in Lucy in the sky with diamonds. The fills Charlie does in Paint it Black. In many of their songs.
Now Phil Rudd, is a huge favourite. I got even more respect for him one night when I played an AC DC tribute at a club. One tune we did was Let There Be Rock. Now lay it down, 2 and 4, 1 and 3 on the kick, real hard, and on like he does, and keep it up, with the kind of intensity he does. Sure anyone can play that simplistic beat. But that's totally missing the point. There's a whole world in the way that groove should played, and as much studying and practicing of technique I've done over the years, that is a skill I have grown to have the deepest respect for, and I spend a lot of playing time thinking about how I'm laying the groove as opposed to what another drummer might think of that last double triplet paradiddle roll I squeaked in in between that last chorus of a pop song.
;)

Paicey

He really does look odd while playing and um ya, he is kinda buggy but i really dig his playing.

DougB

Okay - does Nigel Ollsen bother anyone?  I like him but I've heard others claim that he was lame.  He's sort of in the same category as Charlie Watts (although not the same style).  He's a good drummer in a great band that has had mammoth success.

lilblakdak

I like Nigels work with Spencer Davis. I think most peoples problem with Charlie is that hes not very animated behind the kit. He plays exactly what a Stones songs needs nothing more, and he does thrash around like a monkey while doing it. Its Micks job to be the center of attention not his.

xdrummer2000

I have a lot of respect for Charlie Watts. I don't like his technique (what with the traditional grip and all) very much, but I like how he plays. He keeps a good groove going.

Also, about the whole Phil Rudd thing, I sort of respect him, too. He may be extremely basic to emulate, but at least he does a good job at it.

If there's one drummer I cannot stand, it's Meg White from the white stripes. She's possibly one of the worst drummers I've ever seen. And I didn't say she's one of the worst PRO drummers I've seen, but out of every drummer I've seen. I probably have friends who are better than she is. Sorry, but I just needed to say that.

Mister Acrolite

Quote from: xdrummer2000 on March 24, 2006, 09:45 PM
I have a lot of respect for Charlie Watts. I don't like his technique (what with the traditional grip and all) very much, but I like how he plays.

Can we assume that you also don't like the techniques of Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Smith, Buddy Rich, Dave Weckl, and Steve Gadd?

Dave Heim

X, sometimes I get a little lost in your contradictions.  Help me out here: you say you like how Charlie plays, and that he keeps a good groove going.  But you don't like his technique (with the traditional grip and all).  

In my mind, one lends itself to the other.  His technique helps him play the groove you like.   Is it just the trad grip that bugs you?

xdrummer2000

Quote from: DaveFromChicago on March 25, 2006, 08:45 AM
X, sometimes I get a little lost in your contradictions.  Help me out here: you say you like how Charlie plays, and that he keeps a good groove going.  But you don't like his technique (with the traditional grip and all).  

In my mind, one lends itself to the other.  His technique helps him play the groove you like.   Is it just the trad grip that bugs you?

Yup. It's just the traditional grip.

KevinD

Quote from: xdrummer2000 on March 24, 2006, 09:45 PM

Also, about the whole Phil Rudd thing, I sort of respect him, too. He may be extremely basic to emulate, but at least he does a good job at it.


Not to single you out, but I notice a lot of drummers here and in general, like to minimize guys like Charlie Watts, Phil Rudd and guys that play like them. I guess it is because they and players like them are known mostly for non-technical playing.  

I often hear these players denigrated and hear talk about how "easy" these guys are to emulate, and often hear cover bands playing their songs, yet I donââ,¬â,,¢t often hear them being ââ,¬Å"emulatedââ,¬Â successfully. As Tony says above, anyone with rudimentary skills can ââ,¬Å"playââ,¬Â those ââ,¬Å"beats,ââ,¬Â but as he also alludes, there is much more to it than what first meets the ear.

Iââ,¬â,,¢m not trying to restart the ââ,¬Å"less is moreââ,¬Â argument either, that is another topic altogether, what Iââ,¬â,,¢m saying is a lot of people think that what those guys are playing is so easy to recreate and they often think that theyââ,¬â,,¢re doing it but theyââ,¬â,,¢re not. As just one piece of proof of that all you have to do is to walk into just about any Guitar Center all across the country and youââ,¬â,,¢ll see ton of drummers sitting there trying to copy those beats (and poorly).

Granted, Phil Rudd, Charlie Watts and players like them are not playing in the vein of Neil Peart, Mike Portnoy, or Dave Weckl  or any of those drummers, but what they are playing has itsââ,¬â,,¢ own nuances to it. Those guys, along with Vinnie C. Dennis Chambers and Tony Williams are some of my favorite drummers but it took me a while playing and listening in different situations to understand that some of the simpler guys are no slouches either.

If youââ,¬â,,¢ve ever had to go into a studio and play a simple back beat, with NO variation in time, stroke, attack, etc..for 3 or 4 minutes while the red light is on you would understand that it is no easy task. And those who do it and do it well time and time again are few and far between.  Did you ever see a picture of Frank Beardââ,¬â,,¢s drum head? Two marks, ââ,¬Å"one for the shuffle and the other for the ââ,¬Ëœfo foââ,¬â,,¢ (4/4),ââ,¬Â talk about consistency, and heââ,¬â,,¢s done it well for years.

Take ââ,¬Å"For Those About to Rock,ââ,¬Â I have NEVER seen that played well in a club, to maintain energy without overplaying it or speeding it up is what I consider an accomplishment. Rudd pulls it off live as well.

I guess to me this is the telling truth: Over the years, through mutual acquaintances Iââ,¬â,,¢ve met a pretty well known bass player who lives near where I grew up. Iââ,¬â,,¢ve been fortunate to have had a few conversations with him from time to time about drumming and his favorite drummers. Now this bass player has played with just about EVERY one of my drumming heroes from Buddy Rich, to Bruford, to Bozzio and even Mike Portnoy, heââ,¬â,,¢s also played on tons of records and more than a few hits so anything he says I give a lot of creedence to.

He has his own band that he is taking on a world tour in a few weeks, his favorite drummer, who is pretty well known in his own right is playing with him on this tour. This drummer can really get technical and play some wild stuff but heââ,¬â,,¢s best known for his playing in a great, simple groove,  similar to the stuff that Watts, Beard, or Rudd  have played. But like them, I guess it is his way of playing it that makes him stand out to this bass player who could have any one of the best drummers in the world play with him.

Also, just because a drummer is playing simply to fit the tune (or what the producer told him to which is more likely the case with Phil Rudd) don't think that is only what theyââ,¬â,,¢re capable of. If the only cut from John Bonham youââ,¬â,,¢d ever heard was ââ,¬Å"Kashmirââ,¬Â or the only Steve Gadd cut youââ,¬â,,¢d ever heard was the Bee Geesââ,¬â,,¢ ââ,¬Å"Stayinââ,¬â,,¢ Aliveââ,¬Â would you still have a similar opinion of them?