I`m Not Happy!

[Jon E]

Nutty, though my Ludwigs were shipped directly from Ludwig in NC, I did order them through Interstate (who matched the lower prices I found from Drums Etc. btw).

I have nothing but praise for them as well.

[Bermuda Schwartz]

I've heard some bad things about the people at Ludwig of late. I know some guys at NAMM and they have said that they were treated like total crap by some of the guys from Ludwig.

I've known some of the key Ludwig folks for a while, and I've also been a NAMM attendee for 22 years. Before defending or agreeing, I'd have to ask specifically what these guys' status at NAMM is - Visitors? Buyers? Exhibitors? What was going on in the booth when they were trying to interact with Ludwig? What exactly does "treated like total crap" entail, and by which persons at the booth? What specific questions or comments were made, or what were the guys doing, that caused any reaction on Ludwig's part?

There are a few things to take into consideration, but first and foremost: NAMM IS A TRADE SHOW! That doesn't mean that players don't get in, but the focus for the exhibitor is to talk to retail store owners and distributors in order to 'write business'. Suppose a visitor comes into the booth and starts wailing on a kit, and the people whose booth it is are attempting to talk business. In that event, I wouldn't blame any company for telling the visitor to cool it in whatever language they deem necessary, or even to get the hell out. The companies aren't there to cater to the players... that's what the PAS show* is for. There are also noise issues at NAMM**, and the smart exhibitors watch their p's & q's and extend basic courtesies to their fellow exhibitors. People who make an undue amount of noise are normally asked to keep it down. It's happened to me a few times. But I would never suggest that I was treated like crap, or even have the right to test gear - NAMM is not intended for players.

Let's say that these guys were exhibitors, specifically, someone from the competition. There's a certain amount of friendliness between companies, very few are in denial about their position in the market and there are none of the ****ing contests that some people imagine exist. However, that doesn't mean that everyone is welcome in everyone else's booth. Were these guys looking where they weren't supposed to? Were they in the booth trying to pull buyers over to their booth (I've seen that happen!) or talking trash about that exhibitor? (I've seen that happen too!)

Were these guys buyers? If so, there's no excuse for bad treatment from any exhibitor - they're the reason the show exists! Could a company stay in business if they treated buyers like "total crap"? Not for long...   However, buyers with an attitude or unreasonable demands aren't tolerated either. If the guys are buyers, what did they say or ask for that could have caused a reaction?

But let's look at Ludwig, too. I'm not saying there couldn't be some unfriendly types there... but I don't know who they would be. Todd Trent is an absolute sweetheart. I've never heard a mean word come out of his mouth, and never seen him truly angry, even in the most frustrating moments before, during or after the show, or apart from there (I've considered Todd a close friend for many years.) Jim Catalano, the head of Ludwig, is also a great guy, although somewhat more distracted during the show. If he's unable to chat socially for more than a few moments, that can't be held against him. Same for Chuck Hueck, a Ludwig vet of many years. Everyone else there has also been nothing but nice to me. And no, they're not trying to lure me in, or giving me any special treatment as a pro. There are much bigger fish at that show if they're concerned about turning on the charm.

Again, NAMM is about writing orders with buyers who attend specifically for that purpose, not about catering to looky-lou's who play an instrument and were lucky enough to manage a pass to the show. I can't fault any exhibitor for excusing themselves from a personal conversation when there's business to conduct, and I'm always very aware of that when I'm chatting with someone. I am respectful and let them do their job. There are a few exhbitors who have some abrasive employees, and everyone comes away with a bad taste in their mouth. I don't like those people either, but I would never say I was "treated like total crap" by them. But I've never heard a bad word about Ludwig's people.

Seriously, I'd like to know more about what happened, and perhaps I can offer a better explanation. I would be flabbergasted to learn that anyone at Ludwig deliberately went out of their way to give someone a hard time.

Bermuda


* - Ludwig displays at PAS and is happy to talk gear all day, and cheerfully encourages the attendees to play their drums.

** - Regarding noise, most of the drum companies are in one hall, and it really gets noisy in there (one reason I'm taking today off from the show,) and there's a certain amount of expectation - maybe even leeway - as to the sound levels in that hall. However, companies like Ludwig, Tama, Mapex, Yamaha and Gretsch have their booths in other halls where the neighboring exhibitors may be showing violins... or music publications... or guitar straps. In those quieter areas, it is especially important to keep the noise down. That could have been the issue with whatever these guys were doing.

[Mark Counts]

Wow, you've got some wind!!!Namm shows!!Guess we don't need to go there since they don't target the people who play their stuff. Does it really matter? You are a player and you buy what you want.  So they may be targeting Music stores and Ware house companies.  I am sure it is a big show!! My local music store goes to them every year! The only thing that means to me is they will be closed for a few day's. Not going
to ruin my day because of this.  It is not worth it.  Have a good day.
                                Nutty

[Dave Heim]

Wow, you've got some wind!!!Namm shows!!Guess we don't need to go there since they don't target the people who play their stuff.

Right.  NAMM is for the people who make, sell and distribute the stuff.

NAMM = National Association of Music Merchants.

That's why your local store goes.

[Snowdogyyz]

I'm not going to go into it, but these guys are exhibitors and buyers. They said their experience wasn't pleasant. They did not play a kit or snare drum.  Were they at the booth to buy Ludwig? Probably not. Most likely just trying to ask questions or chat. I don't know the whole situation, so let's leave it at that.

[Bermuda Schwartz]

I'm not going to go into it, but these guys are exhibitors and buyers. They said their experience wasn't pleasant.

I'm still very surprised to hear it. Buyers are the #1 priority at the show, and there's (normally) no excuse for mistreatment by an exhibitor. Obviously, buyers enter many booths yet don't buy from each of the companies, so not placing an order with Ludwig wouldn't be an excuse for mistreatment either.

But I respect the need for privacy & discretion. And in the absence of facts to the contrary, I'll continue to respect the folks at Ludwig.

Bermuda

[Mark Counts]

Maybe Ludwig needs to know that they have a few Sales Rep's that are sowing sour Grapes.  I agree with much that was said.
Just because you don't buy 10 sets at a time to fill your show room floor doesn't mean that Ludwig Rep's shouldn't act unprofessional. Ludwig Drum Co. builds drums.  Maybe they just don't know what happened at NAMM?  I have talk with someone hear on this web site that used to work for Ludwig?  Let me see if I can find out who it was?  He responded to a thread about a set of Vintage Ludwig's last week that someone was looking at to buy?  He Thanked me for saying that the Green and Blue label Drums were good quality drums because that was when he worked there.  Maybe he still knows some people there? Let me go back and see who it was?  Surly there are enough drummers on this web site that we can let the company know about this bad experience? I for one have enjoyed playing Ludwig drums. I don't think that a few bad sales rep's are going to change my mind about the quality of the drums?
                                       Nutty

[Mark Counts]

DaveFromChicago used to work for them, maybe he can help?
                             Nutty

[Snowdogyyz]

But I respect the need for privacy & discretion. And in the absence of facts to the contrary, I'll continue to respect the folks at Ludwig.

Bermuda

Many people probably have your experience with them as well, so I would never expect you to change your opinion of them. I was just talking about a handful of people's experience. Hopefully, their experience was the exception and not the rule.  Especially since Ludwig is making some really nice equipment again.

[Joe]

While your initial post was powerfully written, bermuda, I respectfully inform you that you seem to have omitted your notation for the quadruple-asterisk in paragraph three.

::d&r::

[Mark Counts]

****ing is not hard to figure out but I guess it is really not called for.  I guess more of us need to pay attention to what we say? I must repent.  I am a sinner too!
                  Nutty

[DWdrmr]

Anyone here believe in fate? If not, this may change your mind. I mentioned a DW kit in a previous post. I contacted the seller. It was local pick up only, about an hour from me.  The opening price was A$4500. I asked how old the kit was, only a couple of months,not a mark on it. I asked why he was selling- now get this- he had broken his neck in a fall and he could no longer play. I didn`t know to say. The kit had only been listed for a day or so. He said if I was interested.I could pay the$4500 and he`d end the auction. so that`s what I did. I was going to pay A$4000 for 4 drums from Ludwig. No snare, no h/ware. For an extra $500, this is what I got:DW birch collectors 24x22 bass, 13x12 ride tom, 16x17,18x17 floor toms, 14x8 snare. Broken glass finish, black h/ware. Zildjian 16.18 Custom A crashes, 16 A rock crash. 14 New Beat hats, Sabian 20 XS rock ride, Paiste 502 18 China. All cymbals are new.5 new Pearl booms, new snare stand, DW 4000 dbl kick. The guy had paid Just over A$11000 all up. I really felt for this guy. I could see it was killing him to part with the kit. I promised him I`d look after it, and I will.

Peter

Man.....that is a DEAL! I feel sorry for the seller also, but I'm sure he was comforted to know they were going to a good home. That is the best he could have hoped for. :) 8)    Sure that DW dbl kick is'nt a 5000 series?

[Joe]

****ing is not hard to figure out but I guess it is really not called for.

I thought it was perfectly appropriate given the intense nature of such a topic, and the use of asterisks (without respect to my drive-by post which was perhaps lost on some) shows decency with regard to the community standards and practices.

[Mark Counts]

OK Joe,
I took what you said the wrong way.  You know I have seen Metallica live and I have seen Ozzy.  I have never heard so much of it, the F word I mean.  Led Zep never had to screem that stuff to make it.  I guess anything goes anymore!  The world has become a really crazy place.  I prefer to keep the show rated PG13.  Just my feelings about it.  I play with 3 Different rock groups and I sit in for my Christian Church from time to time.
It is hard for me to keep one foot in one boat and the other foot in another boat.  Hard to find balance. Not my place to judge but this is my interstrugle.  I like to keep it clean.
                               Nutty

[Dave Heim]

Maybe Ludwig needs to know that they have a few Sales Rep's that are sowing sour Grapes.  I agree with much that was said.
Just because you don't buy 10 sets at a time to fill your show room floor doesn't mean that Ludwig Rep's shouldn't act unprofessional. Ludwig Drum Co. builds drums.  Maybe they just don't know what happened at NAMM?  I have talk with someone hear on this web site that used to work for Ludwig?  Let me see if I can find out who it was?  He responded to a thread about a set of Vintage Ludwig's last week that someone was looking at to buy?  He Thanked me for saying that the Green and Blue label Drums were good quality drums because that was when he worked there.  Maybe he still knows some people there? Let me go back and see who it was?  Surly there are enough drummers on this web site that we can let the company know about this bad experience? I for one have enjoyed playing Ludwig drums. I don't think that a few bad sales rep's are going to change my mind about the quality of the drums?
                                       Nutty

That was me.  

I know some of the guys Bermuda mentioned,  though not as well as he does.  Chances are they don't remember me - its been a long time. -

Regardless, I take the same stance as Bermuda on this.  When you're working the booth at any trade show you're presenting a human face for your company.  A first impression.  A last impression.  Its hard for me to believe that the Ludwig guys would act like that.  I'm not saying they didn't - but at this point its all "he said - she said", and its pretty pointless.  Surely there is another side to the story.  

Besides - the thread is no longer really relevant.  baldmann got himself a nice new set of drums through an unfortunate twist of fate.  Maybe we could all just be happy for him.

[Mark Counts]

Dave,
You are right, I think we should have ended it about 4 or 5 messages ago.  There is no point in getting involved in other peoples business.  I think my opinion of Ludwig drums will stay the same. I am glad Baldmann got a great set of drums!  And this, is the end, I hope of this subject! Let's just keep it to, "I love playing music".  I have never been to a NAMM show and don't care if I ever go!! Have a great day everyone!!!!
                                   Nutty

[Joe]

I prefer to keep the show rated PG13.  Just my feelings about it.

I respect your personal opinion.  I feel I must inform you, however, that minimal profanity is generally acceptable under a PG-13 rating.  Sometimes more instances of harsher expletives will still allow a movie to retain its PG-13 rating, depending on a vote.

[Mark Counts]

Thank You for correcting me Joe,  Let me just clearify my comment.  We don't use profanity on stage.  Forget about the rating.  If there is a few hints of it in the lyrics of a song we might not change the words but I might change the words.
Example: Tigg-o-bitties.  Use your imagination. I use that word in Road House Blues. But I have played in front of young children and I don't want them getting the wrong message from me.
I just don't think it is necessary.  + it is offensive to many.  The world it headed in a direction that I do not want to go.  I think that people have the right do be theirselves as long as it doesn't hurt anyone but I am a Christian and I will be until the end. I thank the Lord for my musical talent and my singing voice
and I will not tarnish his name.  My mission is to build bridges to him and that is why I will stay active in the music program at my church. Just trying to do my part.  Thank you for giving me the oppritunity to explain myself.
                        Mark T. Counts
                     The Nutty Drummer