Topic: Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?  (Read 13471 times)

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Offline Shane Stylianos

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2006, 12:39 PM »

I know I should say, "Hello fine sir, how is your day going".  This doesn't mean I can't say, "Duuuuuude - what is up????"

No, but it is still regarded as poor grammar/speaking (or, at least in my family).  LOL  I wonder if this falls under the "if all your friends started jumping off a bridge...." catagory.  Foshizzle.  ;)

If nobody questioned this stuff, an inch would still be 1 twelfth of some king's foot or something.

For some reason, I was still under the impression that it was! Or at least the last king.  What is its basis now?

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Offline Louis Russell

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2006, 12:52 PM »
It's just like using the word "paradiddle  It should probably have no place in music theory, right?  But we use it because it works.

And also because it is a recognized drum rudiment.  

Just like if I'm wearing a suit and tie at a function with my grandmother, I'll use different language than when I'm hanging out with friends my age.

Excellent point!  When describing music notation you should use the correct term whenever possible.  In the past few years there has been a huge increase in music slang and at times it is almost impossible for people outside the slang culture to communicate effectively.  This is one reason Latin is used so much for scientific purposes.  Being a “dead” language it changes very little over time.  
No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!

Offline Dave Heim

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2006, 12:54 PM »
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH BART!

There is nothing to argue about. If somebody tells me to play 12th notes, I will say: "are you talking about music?"

We learn the right music therms in music theory, because that's it!


I agree.  The original question was "Can triplets in 4/4 be regarded as 12th notes?"  The answer - as stated by many - is no.  

You can call them anything you want.  But if you want to carry on a conversation using time-tested, accepted, theory-based musical terms, then 'no' you can't call them 12th notes.

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Offline Bart Elliott

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 01:41 PM »
JamesC ... I have no problem with new words ... but the argument about 12th-notes is just silly. First of all, there is already perfectly fine terms in place to describe what "12th-notes" is trying to replace or substitute.

Furthermore, its very confusing using the term "12th-notes" because there is no such thing. You can slice it and dice it but you can't come up with a 12th-note. Like has been stated time and again, there are only 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, etc. The number 12 is not a choice when it comes to note values.

Now, if you want to say "12 grouping", "12-stroke", or anything like that, you would be fine to do so and can make sense of it using those words. But to tell someone to play "12th-notes" makes no sense because there is no 12th note. You could play 12 notes in the span of one quarter-note, or one eighth-note, or one sixteenth-note, etc., but you can't play 12th-notes because there is no such thing, nor can you mathematically create a 12th-note using the Western Music Notation System.

If you try to play something in a time span or time signature that doesn't allow for it mathematically (that meaning that its divisible by some numer in direct relation to the time signature), then you would use the ratio notation which Mr. A pointed out. If you are in 7/8 and you want to play 12 strokes evenly spaced in that time signature, you could write 12 eighth-notes in one bar of 7/8 and write 12:7 over it. This tells you to play 12 notes in the span of the normal 7.

I still think its silly to argue the point. The notation system used in western music (as in the western hemisphere or our planet) does not allow for 12th-notes ... and it can not work. People using the term 12th-note are doing so ONLY because they don't know the real term, so they are trying to find a way to describe it. They are not creatiing some hip new term or definition that any musician will ever use or adopt. What they are doing, in my opinion, is making themselves look very foolish.

This is a losing argument, debate or battle ... whatever you want to call it.

All of your examples JamesC, like the paradiddle, is not a good example because the word or label does not take away from another truth in order to create something new. The word "12th-note" is taking from a basic truth of music notation and trying to make something else out of it. Its twisting and perverting the truth and logic of the math. If you want to call eighth-note triplets which fill a measure of 4/4 something else ... that's fine ... but you CAN NOT call it 12th-notes because the process of taking a number and following it with the word "note" or "notes" has already been established to mean an actual note value.

So create all you want, but if you try to twist an established truth which is based on math & logic ... you are not going to get very far. Call it a twelvelet for all I care, but a 12th-note can not exist; period.

JamesC

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2006, 02:23 PM »
Alright, I don't want to get all excited.  I was trying to make the point that just because someone calls something a "12th note", it doesn't mean they are necessarily, "making up terms to try to explain what they don't understand".

It's just a way of saying, "one of those little notes of that group of 12...."  It doesn't mean they're advocating re-standardizing the notation system.

An example would be when playing with a person who doesn't totally understand triplets.  Instead of saying, "accent the third partial of the second triplet", you may say, "accent the sixth 12th note..."  Heck, "partial" may even be an incorrect word, but it's used because it gets the idea accross.

Goofy, but it could work to communicate the idea.  In the same way that, "dude, it goes like this..." (plays lick on hi-hat so guitar player understands).

It doesn't make someone dumb.

Again, 12th note is an extreme example, so it does sound goofy.

Anyone who is knowledgable to be breaking down notes into groups of 12 and talk about this stuff most likely understands what triplets, 8th notes, etc. are.

I do see where you're coming from - I'd hate to see someone tell a new student to "play a bar of 12th notes".  That would make me cringe for sure.

Ryan

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Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2006, 02:43 PM »
I just spent about an hour typing the definitive work on this subject, only to have it erased by the timer on this (public) computer. I'll do it again later. Kinda burnt for now.

And the experimental time signature thing isn't slang; there's math to support it, though it's obvious that the local curmudgeons relentlessly equate their exhaustive knowledge of the inside of "the box" with unfatomable musical omniscience, to the chagrin of us, the marginally-competent laity.

It's worth a giggle, I guess.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2006, 02:49 PM »
I think the point is that if you're going to look at written music analytically enough to understand what a "12th note" would be, why not simply learn what it's REALLY called?
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felix

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Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2006, 02:54 PM »
I never heard of a darn 12 th "note" in all my life.

There is no such thing and there never will be.  And if that day ever comes I'll shall refute it and only play whole  rests on piano my remaining days in the vein of my idol John Cage.

We have had some people come in and out of here in the past with experimental subdivisions and it's really a waste of time- *he he he*

All ya need to do is stick with the basics and perfect the musical structure already in place.  That and talent itself are all one need's to make their mark as a great musician.  The rest is *cue up high pitched new yorker magazine critic's voice* TOTAL CRAP!!!!

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2006, 02:54 PM »

You're reinventing a wheel that's already quite round. Why bother? Particularly for something as mundane as an 8th-note triplet?

I'd be VERY surprised if in the insanely complex  drum music written by people like Delecluse, Cirone, Firth, and even Frank Zappa, they haven't already established sufficient notational methodology to capture any ideas you may be trying to write.

Certainly a case could be made for a notational system for music not so firmly based on increments of two; ie, music VERY different from "conventional" western music. If that's the direction you're going, knock yourself out. I've always been amazed at how "four-centric" music is, particularly since we have five digits on each limb. So if you're boldly going where no musician has gone before, go for it.

But coming up with a new name for 8th-note triplets seems like dumbing down, not innovation.
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Ryan

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Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2006, 02:58 PM »
Hey, I'm not arguing with the current notational system; it works fine.

But like I said...

Ryan

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2006, 03:01 PM »

You're reinventing a wheel that's already quite round. Why bother? Particularly for something as mundane as an 8th-note triplet?

... coming up with a new name for 8th-note triplets seems like dumbing down, not innovation.


Agreed, but you're not following the line of thought to its logical end.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2006, 03:15 PM »
Okay, what does a single 12th note look like?

An 8th note is readily identifiable, regardless of context or time signature. As is an 8th-note triplet.

I can call one of the notes that makes up an 8th note triplet a floobysnoogle just as easily as calling it a 12th note. Of course, neither exists in the known lexicon of musical notation, but if it makes me happy, I can call it that.

You can come up with a new notational system. You can also speak Esperanto. But you'll still face the eternal question: why bother?
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Ryan

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Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2006, 03:42 PM »
Well, Keith, you're totally missing what I'm saying, as is everyone else.

But maybe you're right, you know? Why bother? I mean, why not go back to discussing ride cymbals? Everything ride cymbals! Get it here! Come get your stimulating discussion about ride cymbals!

Or how about discussing, for the 468 thousandth time which drummer is your favorite and why?

Because, even if my point in bringing this up WERE to call an 8th note triplet by another name, at least that would be SOMETHING, and at least I would have TRIED to do something unique.

Give me a guy who tries to use whatever amount of brain he does have to start a conversation over some mentally-flatlined prick who thinks that because he attended Bob's Barnyard School of Drumz and has 14,643 posts on an internet forum that he's the final authority on all things tambourine ANY day.

And maybe you'll get your way. Maybe I'll have no great thought here -- or even a decent one -- and you'll have what you've very obviously been itching to get for days now...

Me humiliated, a Ryan-free forum, a few (more) online back pats from Bart Elliott and, essentially, the final proof that you're smarter, wittier, wiser, more well adjusted, more professional, more well traveled, friendlier, nicer, more chivalrous, more musically inclined, more punctual, and just, plain better than me.

I get it. I'll stay gone.

For get the explanation of this topic. I've got to get busy thinking about more practical things. You know: hunting, digging, etc.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation about cosmically important things, like how real "mature" drummers will recognize that Ringo Starr was teh best kazoo playur in the hole Ar-KIN-sawz!

Talk amongst yourselves. I'll go back to the rudimental forums and discuss the fact that, mathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with.

And I'll do it with my really boring, uneducated co-conversers, who haven't yet booked enough gigs at the local state fair to realize the scope of their online superpowers.

 ::)

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2006, 03:54 PM »
Gee, glad you're not bitter or anything.

I'm not shouting down your thread. I have an extensive music education, and I'm trying to respond thoughtfully to your initial question about whether it was good or bad to call 8th-note triplets 12th notes.

You asked. I gave you an answer, provided my reasons for my answer, offered scenarios where alternative notation might be worth pursuing, and in general clarified my position.

And I managed to do so without calling anybody a mentally-flatlined prick.

So what's the problem? What's the great logic you allude to that defeats the notational system that was good enough for Mozart and Zappa? Why is my well-thought-out and carefully expressed opinion making you angry?

You've offered no compelling reason to call an 8th-note triplet a 12th note. Yet this thread stands open, waiting for you to do so.

Well? We're waiting. Got logic? Bring it on.

But lose the name-calling. It makes your argument no more compelling, and it's offensive.



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AdamBlevins

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2006, 03:58 PM »
I wish I'd jumped on this thread sooner...

I've heard mention of 12th and 24th notes before.  The only places that I've heard of them, though, were in drum corps communities...and drum corps love to "reinvent the wheel".  However, it seems ironic that drum corps are so fond of polymeters but that these particular drum corps members haven't realized that triplets are polymetric rhythms.

For some reason, corps vets like to make things a lot more complicated than they really are (i.e. trying to make a triple based polyrhythm a duple rhythm, for example).  I've also found a case where they try to make simple rhythms polymetric ones.
I downloaded some transcriptions of some drum corps licks at one time and I kept having a strange rhythm turn up...It looked like two consecutive groups of five sixteenth notes...each group had 5:3 written above it.  I acquired the actual recordings and found out that they were eggbeaters...which (for those of you who don't know) are:

Right handed 16th note triplet    RRR
Followed by...
Two left 32nd notes      LL

When two of these are played in a row, it lasts exactly a beat and a half (the span of a dotted 1/4 note)

I have seen numerous weird 5:3 notations for eggbeaters....

It is my belief, that this is the origin of the 12th/24th note...now can we PLEASE put it to rest...??

--adam--

P.S. I'm with Bart and Mr. A...There is not such thing as a 12th note.

JamesC

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2006, 04:02 PM »
Ryan, dude, this place is cool.  It's one of the most down to Earth forums of any kind I've seen on the net.

Come on man, I've seen you on a couple forums over the years, and dig lots of your conversations, and sometimes you just downright have me cracking up.


Now, how about those flams?  Does the grace note land on the beat, or before it?   ;D

Offline Bart Elliott

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2006, 04:03 PM »
Ryan ... I've had enough of your and your attitude my friend. I'm making this public so that everyone knows that this is MY call to mute you. I've continued to show good faith with you and allow you opportunities to turn your attitude around, but I've personally had enough. This is my forum, so when I've had enough, I've had enough; life is too short.

Your comments and insults are unacceptable.

If you don't want to learn and grow ... that's fine with me. One thing I've learned is that you can't teach or help somone who doesn't want to learn or be taught. I've also learned that trying to reason with a fool is a complete waste of time and an impossible task. Good-bye Ryan.

AdamBlevins

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2006, 04:05 PM »
Quote
I'll go back to the rudimental forums

I swear I wrote my last post before reading that.

Quote
mathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with.

I think he may have answered his own question.  Mathematically speaking, the IS no such thing as a triplet.  That's why it has to represented with a polymeter (i.e. a time signature with a time signature).  That's what we use to define rhythms that aren't easily (or possibly) definable in a given time signature.

Offline Dave Heim

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Re:Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2006, 04:09 PM »

. . . I'll go back to the rudimental forums and discuss the fact that, mathematically speaking, there's no such thing as a triplet to begin with. . .

Thus rendering the original question moot.
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JamesC

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Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2006, 04:12 PM »
Adam - interesting that you bring up Eggbeaters!  When I was marching corps, I was determined to figure out what exactly they were, metrically.

I came to the conclusion that they are not quite fivelets, and not quite a little triplet thing followed by 32nd note diddles (don't everyone go saying I don't understand what I'm talking about because I didn't use correct terminology ;D).  They're probably somewhere in between the two mathematical representations.  This is due to how our hands tend to naturally play them - I think, in fact, it would be easier to play the 2nd mathematical representation than the first.  I know this from playing an exercise where my friend would play a roll, and I would play eggbeaters over it.  I had to alter a "comfortable" interpretation to be able to play clean with the guy playing the roll.

No joke - I used to have a little section on my snare drumming website discussing eggbeaters because I was so fascinated by how drumlines could play them cleanly, yet we didn't totally understand what we were playing.  (I was in a 10-man snareline that has some dang clean eggbeaters on recording).

There are some wierd things in drum corps, but I can assure you I see weirder things with my "rock & roll" buddies, where guys exchange music theory like this: "Dude, it's this kind of chord" - (guitar player shows other guitar player the chord shape he's making), other guitar player says, "oh, why didn't you say so!".


 

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