Topic: Epiphany  (Read 3803 times)

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Offline Rylie

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Epiphany
« on: April 07, 2006, 09:58 PM »
This may be obvious or perhaps silly to you more experienced drummers, but while watching a video of a drummer playing a 4 piece bop set and sounding as busy as a Bonham solo, I decided to rearrange my standard (12/13/16) set and eliminate the 13" tom so it's more like a bop arrangement - drum sizes notwithstanding.

This obviously allowed me to move the ride cymbal closer and lower, drop the 12" tom as low as it will go, bring my 18" crash (on the right) to an easier to reach spot / height, and all of a sudden I'm actually comfortable behind the set and I'm able to move around it better...and obviously faster.

Boredom can be productive. Go figure.
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Offline Vintage Ludwig

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2006, 10:05 PM »
Nice!  Its funny how we stumble on new things eh?

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Epiphany
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2006, 12:20 AM »
Very cool. That's one of those things that I would say "why didn't I think of this before".  The next step is getting rid of triple braced cymbal stands. ;D

Offline chillman4130

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2006, 01:11 AM »
Good for you! I was fortunate enough to have the foresight to do that with my very first set. That 13" tom just stayed into the closet (until I chopped it into a timbale)
I maintain that set-up today. A 4-pc just has an element of cool that a monster kit does not.
Just curious, what video made you figure this out?
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Offline Rylie

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2006, 09:37 AM »
Good for you! I was fortunate enough to have the foresight to do that with my very first set. That 13" tom just stayed into the closet (until I chopped it into a timbale)
I maintain that set-up today. A 4-pc just has an element of cool that a monster kit does not.
Just curious, what video made you figure this out?

I was scrolling through the videos on the DrummerWorld site, and I can't remember exactly who I was watching when the idea hit me. I watched a dozen or so, several of which played bop / jazz / single ride tom type sets. May have been Travis Barker...or Jake Hanna. There's diversity for you, huh?

As you say, the set definitely looks better too without that swollen, awkward looking 13" tom hanging there. But now I have a 1/2 dozen different 13" batter heads laying around so I  may chop this 13" tom into a snare...or two. It's a cheapy, so if I toast it, who cares. I'm a fairly serious wood / metal working hobbyist with a full shop, so I feel pretty confident I can do it. I've even come up with a jig (in my head) to keep it square and allow the bearing edges to be routed properly. But I digress.
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Offline Chip Donaho

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 12:13 PM »
A 4-pc just has an element of cool that a monster kit does not.
That depends on who's looking.... I wonder who determines that?  ;D  Isn't it all about sound/music and not how many drums you play on that matters.   ;)   I have fun playing on my 4 piece. But I have even more fun playing on a 7 or 8 piece kit. I have yet to have anyone tell me they didn't like any of my drums or I wasn't "cool". But I've had people tell me, "You play the **** out of those things."    8)   I do agree with the "less is more" theory. To me that applies to how I play and not the number of drums used.  
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Offline Rylie

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Epiphany
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2006, 12:57 PM »
I'd say "cool" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. For me, a flat black 2 door '50 Buick hot rod is "cool", while a shiny new Corvette is not. Paul Newman is cool, Antonio Banderas is not. My '68 rat shovelhead is cool, my '98 Ultra Classic  is not, etc., etc. My tendency to belabor a point, not cool.


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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2006, 01:21 PM »
Warren- you do have a keen and accurate sense of what is cool.  I've always played a four piece, and I take it even further and stick with small sizes- 20, 12 and 14.  I even went from a 14 snare to a 13...just today!  Certainly makes loading in and out a lot easier.

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Epiphany
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2006, 02:01 PM »
I would have to agree with Warren's ideas about what is cool. Big time. I have a 60's 4 -piece Ludwig set and a 70's 5 piece Ludwigs. Both beautiful. But all what you were saying above, bikes, cars etc, mmmhmmm.

CrAzEd

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2006, 02:58 PM »
I'll stick with my 7-piece, thank you. It's alot more fun for me and my style of playing to have a bigger kit to mess around with

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 01:10 PM »
Cool

Offline Big Yummy

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Epiphany
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 02:45 PM »
Quote
Isn't it all about sound/music

No.  If it were, the best musicians would be the most successful and most pop stars would be where they belong - flipping burgers.
"Some people say I ain't so super groovy.  Why don't I leave the music alone?"  Black Uhuru

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Epiphany
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 02:59 PM »
Then you would have to define success. I know what you are really saying, but for me, I'd rather be a successful musician with self respect and feeling good about what I am doing with room to grow and change and the ability to choose my own path. That instead of the "fame & fortune" of being a pop star with a lot of pressure and bs to deal with. I know you are meaning that sometimes it seems that the best and most talented are not recognized or rewarded financially for their skill and hard work.

Offline Tony

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Epiphany
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 03:18 PM »
No.  If it were, the best musicians would be the most successful and most pop stars would be where they belong - flipping burgers.

Wow, that's kind of prejudicial, isn't it?  I mean, do you really know how much talent the songwriters behind today's pop stars have?  Seriously?  It doesn't matter how much you dislike pop music, but that doesn't detract from the talent.  Even Britney Spears has to have good songs to perform to.

Don't confuse a performer with a songwriter.  It's insulting to the songwriter, who is usually a person no one has ever heard of who has made millions of dollars writing songs for people like Faith Hill, Tim McGraw, Britney Spears, Alice Cooper, The Rolling Stones Aerosmith, Kiss, Eric Clapton and a plethora of other artisits who have had huge hits with songs penned by a songwriter.  

 
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline Big Yummy

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Epiphany
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 03:30 PM »
Quote
I mean, do you really know how much talent the songwriters behind today's pop stars have?

There's a difference between skill and talent.

Quote
Even Britney Spears has to have good songs to perform to.

Since when?

Quote
It doesn't matter how much you dislike pop music

I like pop music.  I'm not a big fan of generic garbage, though.  The worst teenage punk rock band is infinitely better than a load of coldly cynical, calculated, over produced corporate mush.
"Some people say I ain't so super groovy.  Why don't I leave the music alone?"  Black Uhuru

Offline johndurg

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2006, 03:45 PM »
Here's my feelings on the 4pc (or less) vs bigger kits debate:

I don't really understand why most beginner drumsets are 5 pc.  I think we can all agree that a 4pc drumset is easier to play, because everything is easier to reach.  I've had a bunch of students between 7-15 years old, and i always tell them to use a 4pc setup.

I also agree with the "coolness factor" that comes with a 4 piece kit.  If you're playing less drums, the audience can see YOU more.  It makes you look bigger in comparison to the kit.  Therefore, you look more in control of the instrument IMO.  Your playing is a little more exposed, and i think audiences appreciate that.  The drums are a physical barrier between you and bandmates/audience.  If you play a huge kit, it restricts visual communication for everybody at the show.

Of course,  my ideal size drum kit is based on the type of music i play.  I think small kits are awesome for folk rock.  But I would look like an wimp playing a heavy metal gig with a 3pc drumset.

Offline Tony

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Epiphany
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2006, 03:51 PM »
Quote
Quote:
I mean, do you really know how much talent the songwriters behind today's pop stars have?
 

There's a difference between skill and talent.

Quote:
Even Britney Spears has to have good songs to perform to.
 
 

Since when?

Quote:
It doesn't matter how much you dislike pop music
 

I like pop music.  I'm not a big fan of generic garbage, though.  The worst teenage punk rock band is infinitely better than a load of coldly cynical, calculated, over produced corporate mush.


Right.  Britney Spears has skills, like the ability to dance and sing while putting on an entertaining show.  The people who write her songs are talented.  Mainly because they can pen songs that are appropriate for the artist in which they are written for and the audience they are trying to reach.  

If you don't recognize the talent behind today's pop stars then you don't understand music.  I don't care for today's pop music.  But I recognize that it takes more than a soft core porn act to sell 50 million records.  It takes catchy songs that appeal to a target audience.  

Do you think 8 million screaming girls know the words and melodies to every EnSync (or whoever) song because the songs suck?  My 6 year old daughter can sing the entire "High School Musical" movie soundtrack, because she has listened to it non stop for a week.  Do you think it's because she bought into the hype and commercialism of Disney's movies, or because the songs have a universal appeal to basic human senses of rhythm and melody?

Edit:
Since I wrote this, you added the last line about teen punk bands and corporate mush, and removed the "some adult told me wrestling was real" remark.  I'm guessing you're a kid, so I'll just leave it at that.  When you have some experience in the music industry under your belt, drop me an opinion about it.

The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline johndurg

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Epiphany
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2006, 04:29 PM »
Hey tony,

I definately agree with alot of the things you said.  Most people in the pop music biz are very talented, whether on stage, or behind the scenes.  

But, i don't think it's fair to say that someone "doesn't understand music."  You obviously don't understand music, and neither do I.  No one does, thats what's so great about it!  

When people complain about corporate driven-pop music, it is stupid to say there is no talent there.  But, with alot of that music, its very ENGINEERED to be enjoyed by audiences.  Often, that perfect engineering of songs takes precedence over the musicians trying to express themselves through the music.
Thats the lame part.  

Offline Tony

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Epiphany
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2006, 04:49 PM »


But, i don't think it's fair to say that someone "doesn't understand music."  You obviously don't understand music, and neither do I.  

Shakes head, sighs and writes:

Thanks for your thoughts.  Should I point out the obvious?

 Edit: I removed my snarky follow up comment.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Offline James Walker

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Epiphany
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2006, 07:51 PM »
But, with alot of that music, its very ENGINEERED to be enjoyed by audiences.  Often, that perfect engineering of songs takes precedence over the musicians trying to express themselves through the music.
Thats the lame part.  

Not necessarily "lame" - just different.

Different genres of music can "belong" to different members of the music-making community.  Classical music (and this is a gross overgeneralization) tends to be a composer's medium, with the ensembles serving to realize the composer's creation; jazz (again, grossly overgeneralizing) is often a performer's medium, with the composition serving as a vehicle for the performer's spontaneous creativity.  Pop music (and R&B, and rap) is often a "producer's medium."  It's going back a few years, but (IMHO) Quincy Jones' "Back On The Block" album is definitely "his," as the producer, even though other songwriters were used, and myriad performers.  The performers served to realize Quincy's vision of the music on that particular project.

Performers in pop music can act in service of the producer's creative vision, the same way classical musicians act in service of realizing the conductor's interpretation, and/or the composer's artistic vision.

Obviously, not all styles of music are going to appeal to everyone, and not all approaches to music are going to appeal to everyone.
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Offline Big Yummy

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Epiphany
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2006, 08:37 PM »
Quote
If you don't recognize the talent behind today's pop stars then you don't understand music.

Oh yeah.  That Britney Spears stuff is just too much for me to wrap my noodle around.

C'mon.  This is like trying to tell me I should respect sitcom writers as literary giants or respect the fine cuisine of McDonalds.  Some big brains went into bringing us those fine products.  They're still garbage.
"Some people say I ain't so super groovy.  Why don't I leave the music alone?"  Black Uhuru

Offline Ryan Culberson

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Epiphany
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2006, 11:34 PM »
This may be obvious or perhaps silly to you more experienced drummers, but while watching a video of a drummer playing a 4 piece bop set and sounding as busy as a Bonham solo, I decided to rearrange my standard (12/13/16) set and eliminate the 13" tom so it's more like a bop arrangement - drum sizes notwithstanding.

This obviously allowed me to move the ride cymbal closer and lower, drop the 12" tom as low as it will go, bring my 18" crash (on the right) to an easier to reach spot / height, and all of a sudden I'm actually comfortable behind the set and I'm able to move around it better...and obviously faster.

Boredom can be productive. Go figure.

Hey Warren,

These epiphanies can be mind-boggling, can't they?  My own epiphany went the other way (just to illustrate the individual nature of the drums)...  

For most of my playing life I used a 4-piece kit.  I always felt a "cramped" feeling while practicing or gigging.  In 2004 I switched to a 5-piece kit (with 2 toms over bass drum) and found that I preferred that set up much more than the 4-piece with the ride close in.  

To make a long story short, I have MONKEY arms (my wife calls me "knuckle-dragger")!  For me, having the ride cymbal further away feels more comfortable, and I chalk that up to the abnormal length of my arms.  So moving the ride further out opened a hole for me that I gladly filled in with another drum.  
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Offline Big Yummy

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Epiphany
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2006, 08:09 AM »
Back to the topic:

I find the smaller kit far more ergonomic.  Set-up and tear-down are easier.  The kit is easier to transport.  The kit eats up less space on stage.  There's less "cross-talk" between the drums.  Less mic's are required.   Less money is required.

Also, the drummer is much more visible.  (In my case, I'm not sure that's such a good thing.)

The monster kits are great for monster drummers.  I've seen many a bar rocker hiding behind a monster kit while he played bass and snare all night.  Why bother with the extra gear?  When Neil Peart rolls across the toms, though,  we hear the virtues of the monster kit.

I remember seeing Rush back in the day and even from the edge of the stage I couldn't see a thing Peart was doing.  He had absolutely no presence on stage at all - just a wall of drums.  Now he has a better set-up, mechanized risers, rear screen projection, etc., so he has a huge stage presence.

So, if you're a monster drummer in a monster venue with a monster stage apparatus, the monster kit makes sense.  Otherwise, it's hard to justify.
"Some people say I ain't so super groovy.  Why don't I leave the music alone?"  Black Uhuru

Offline Tony

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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2006, 10:13 AM »
Oh yeah.  That Britney Spears stuff is just too much for me to wrap my noodle around.

C'mon.  This is like trying to tell me I should respect sitcom writers as literary giants or respect the fine cuisine of McDonalds.  Some big brains went into bringing us those fine products.  They're still garbage.

OK.  Thanks for your thoughts.  Have a nice day :)
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

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Epiphany
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2006, 11:18 AM »
Always an interesting topic of discussion and thank goodness for the edit button, huh? It's funny someone should mention the songwriter's behind the songs. I have a few favorite songwriters and though they are not exactly "famous" they are incredible. Yesterday I searched for one, Matraca Berg. It's country, I guess, and never realized how many hit songs for country artists she had written.  I just loved her songs and her singing them. I found out from her site about all the hits. Wow. I would honestly not mind writing songs for others. These are great songs and her royalties are gonna pay for whatever she wants to record and experiment with on her own. And her songs get to be heard.  Music is such a fascinating never ending exploration of unexplainable phenomena. To me. You couldn't really put your finger on it if you tried. You can grow forever in music if you choose to. Some music outlasts most of us and maybe generations to come. And generations before us. But it's kinda fun to argue about it.

Offline Big Yummy

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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2006, 01:56 PM »
Quote
OK.  Thanks for your thoughts.  Have a nice day

The point I intended to make was that other things count besides music: Looks, poise, personality, media manipulation, networking, management, etc.  With enough of those other attributes, a person can be quite successful in the music industry (or any other) with very little directly relevant "talent" and without a very good product.  Without those peripheral attributes, a person can be brilliant at what they do and still not get far.

As for the Britney Spears type acts of this world, I see their teams as being cut from the same cloth as the teams that work for cigarette companies and junk food chains.  They often do, in fact, have great "talent",  but their products are still garbage.  In fact, the more brains these people have, the more reprehensible their conduct is.

The best product seldom dominates any market, and the best music seldom tops the charts.

So, no, it isn't "all about the music".  There's much more to it than that.
"Some people say I ain't so super groovy.  Why don't I leave the music alone?"  Black Uhuru

onuspro

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 12:32 PM »
My 2 cents on the big vs. small:  I have 2 kits, one an 8-piece double bass monster, the other a cheapo 5 piece w/double pedal.  The big kit sits in the band's practice space.  The small kit sits in my house and is transported to gigs that are too small for the big kit.  I play power-prog-thrash metal on both.  My point being: when they put their mind to it, one can do anything on any kit.  Bonham still sounded like Bonham on a little Ludwig jazz kit.  I don't believe one size is superior to the other.  It is true that less is more, but more ain't bad either.  What I can't stand is seeing a 20 piece drumkit on a stage, and the guy barely touches a third of it.

True story:  Last show I went to, a dude has 2 bass drums, with a double pedal attached to the primary.  Nothing attached to the secondary except the hihat stand.  I asked him why.  He said because it looks cool.  Whatever floats your boat, brother.

Offline Rylie

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2006, 01:08 PM »
My 2 cents on the big vs. small:  I have 2 kits, one an 8-piece double bass monster, the other a cheapo 5 piece w/double pedal.  The big kit sits in the band's practice space.  The small kit sits in my house and is transported to gigs that are too small for the big kit.  I play power-prog-thrash metal on both.  My point being: when they put their mind to it, one can do anything on any kit.  Bonham still sounded like Bonham on a little Ludwig jazz kit.  I don't believe one size is superior to the other.  It is true that less is more, but more ain't bad either.  What I can't stand is seeing a 20 piece drumkit on a stage, and the guy barely touches a third of it.

True story:  Last show I went to, a dude has 2 bass drums, with a double pedal attached to the primary.  Nothing attached to the secondary except the hihat stand.  I asked him why.  He said because it looks cool.  Whatever floats your boat, brother.

Agreed. I just bought a new Mapex 6 piece fusion set last Thursday, jammed with it that night - and I'm finding definite benefits to both. I'm still amazed though what some drummers can get out of so few drums...like you said, and I do like the aesthetics of the minimal rig regardless of application.
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Offline chillman4130

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Epiphany
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2006, 04:36 PM »
Warren I must say I am very disappointed. Six pieces? A little pompous now, aren't we? You've sold out, man.

Nah I'm just messing with you. Congrats on your new kit. It's lovely. Actually I'd love to have a 6 or 7 piece to practice with, but I'd never lug it to a gig.

Speaking of gig, I hope to see you in Gainesville on the 20th. It's going to be a wayyy-above average show.
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Offline Rylie

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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 05:59 PM »
When the time comes (when I'm gig-worthy), only 4 pieces are being transported, trust me. I just got a good deal on the Mapex's and besides, just because there's 6 drums in the set doesn't mean they all have to get mounted!

The 8" hanging tom mount (off of the straight cymbal stand) will work perfectly to set it up as a cool 4 piece with a free standing bass, or I could just leave the 10" off the bass drum mount although that may look funky. I bet by the end of the week, I've tried every conceivable arrangement, though.

Thanks, and I hope to see you there. If I make it, I'll be sure to introduce my wife so she believes me that my internet time is spent "constructively".

Shut up and play.

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Epiphany
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2006, 10:43 PM »
If you like playing a 6 piece set, take the whole thing to the gig.  Don't let non-musical issues decide what kit gets used.

I have 4-, 5-, and 7-piece setups.  Given enough space on stage, I take the 7-piece.  The last couple of weeks I've been able to use it with my big band for the first time in almost a year, and doing so has been almost epiphanic.

That said, I also enjoy the smaller setups, and enjoy playing no matter which setup I take to the gig.  I just find that the larger rig offers possibilities that really open up my playing.

There is no "perfect" drumset.  I've had guys in my rock band tell me the snare/bass/ride/hats set I take to rehearsals sounds like a full set, and I've had morons ask how I can play jazz on a 9-piece set.

If you're most comfortable on a 4-piece, great.  That doesn't mean that others are uncomfortable on a different rig, or that your desired configuration has some intrinsic superiority to others.

One great thing about playing drumset is that we truly get to define our instrument in ways that other musicians can only dream about.  I've seen drummers perform terrifically on a snare and ride alone, and on a monster set with more than 20 toms.  They both worked very well under the hands of really good drummers.

Offline Mark Counts

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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2006, 05:19 PM »
I don't know about all this.  To be versitile in all kinds of music and I would rather be called a percussionist than a drummer.
I have 9 drums including my kick drum and 15 cymbals and a wood block, chimes and a cow bell and a tamborine to mount on the Hi Hat.  The only thing I don't like about it is transporting it all.
I don't have a problem reaching any of it.  I have found practical uses for all of it.  I guess each to his or her own but I like it.
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Re:Epiphany
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2006, 11:37 PM »
love playing on 4 peices, have for so long.

But I always thought it'd be a gas to scare my band one night and show up with like 16 clear octobans just for poops and giggles.

 

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