10,000 hours to be an expert drummer?

[David Crigger]

Here's my take. It is ALWAYS a mistake to try and generalize human endeavor and achievement. 10,000 hours, to me, is basically meaningless.

This number - which of course is heavily rounded off - came not from an attempt to measure what has actually happened in the past by studying the background and habits of experts in many different fields. I guess you could call that generalizing - but so then would most scientific study be.

Again to emphasize that this - very rounded off - number isn't from one study but comes from correlating the results of many different types of studies in many different disciplines.

My 7-year-old grandson wants to be a drummer. So does his 9-year-old cousin (a girl).

Neither of them had played drums before they both finally sat down behind my kit 2 years ago. Joey 'played' like a typical kid, smashing everything, making lots of noise, and putting the sticks down after 5 minutes. Katie, on the other hand, had near-perfect timing, even strokes, and a look on her face like she'd seen God. She played until she got tired.

They were both here a couple weeks ago. Neither of them had played in the intervening two years. Joey's drumming was the same, slam bam thank you drums, but Katie had somehow progressed without having played a lick. She asked me to put some ACDC on, and even though she wasn't playing 'correctly' she was PLAYING. She was so excited afterwards she talked to her dad on the phone about it for an hour. A literal hour.

Something clicks in her head when she gets behind the drums. I was the same way at age 10 when I started - drumming released something inside me. I was a drummer from the start. In my head I knew what I was doing - it was just a matter of having my body catch up to my head.

Genetics - neither of my parents played an instrument. None of my brothers do. I started drumming out of emotional need, not pre-programming.

Music comes from emotion. Mathematics is the base music is laid on and that's all. Comparing music to football, math is just the 100-yard field. The players are the music.

There's only one way IMO that generalities like 10,000 hours would have any meaning, and that's if we truly were all the same in every way AND none of us had emotions. To me 10,000 hours refers to the football field, not the players.

Katie is a drummer. Joey isn't. It didn't take 10,000 hours to figure this out. The first time she hit the drums I knew.

Yes Katie is a drummer and so far Joey shows little to no interest in being one.

But Katie is not even remotely an expert drummer. And won't be for a very long time. She may have the interest, she may show a great aptitude for it - none of which has anything to do with this 10,000 hour issue.

If she were to continue to pursue the drums as her life's passion, pursue them to the point of becoming an expert player, then the 10,000 hours in question are what lie ahead for her. As they have for every other former 9-10 year old that have either achieved that level of expertise or are pursuing it.

Lessons, playing at school, practicing, shedding, from 9 till probably into her 20's - if she's really interested, wants it bad enough, and goes for it hard enough, she'll undoubtedly put in that amount of time between now and then...

...and after all that, she still might not be an expert or truly great player - for god knows how many possible reasons.

But that's not really the point. The point is that it is drastically more likely that she has little or no chance of succeeding, of reaching that level, without putting that kind of time in.

And again, not genetics. I know where her passion comes from, it comes from emotional need. She isn't fooling around behind the drums, she's playing them. She needs the release. And she looks like she belongs back there.

And to call her 'gifted' would be a mistake. Her talent, such as it is, arises from need, not innate ability. She needed a release and found one in the drums. As I see it, she found a way to express herself that she hadn't known existed for her. It's not a gift to be emotionally needy. The only 'gift' part was me hooking her up with a drum set.

I'm not sure I follow the joy of playing being equated with the need for an emotional release - I'm sure you're meaning this in the most positive way, I'm just not following what you mean.

dc

[Danno]

I'm not sure I follow the joy of playing being equated with the need for an emotional release - I'm sure you're meaning this in the most positive way, I'm just not following what you mean.

It's how I think things work, that's all. I think most players who are passionate about music started playing because they needed an emotional outlet and found it in music.

[Chris Whitten]

I think people start playing for all kinds of reasons.
Quite often there's little thought put into it.
The school offers drum (or violin) lessons, so little Johnny signs up.
Things have probably changed these days, but back in the 70's there was more frustration, tedious routine involved in instrument lessons.
You were never given a drum kit to sit behind, or a recording to play along to.
You were given a pair of sticks and told to practice holding them properly.

[Big Yummy]

A friend wanted to be a fighter pilot more than anything else in the world and was rejected by the military.  He got his glider licence, his pilot's licence, went to university to study math and meteorology, did all sorts of exercises to improve his hand-eye coordination, and learned what the screening tests involved and practiced the skills required in order to become "test smart".

He went from being "untalented" to commanding the Canadian military's aerobatic team and then flying 50 missions in Bosnia.  If that's not an "expert", I don't know what is.

So there's a situation in which a lot work turned an "untalented" candidate, as assessed by experts, into a "talented" person who became an expert.

I, on the other hand, accepted that I was musically "untalented" and decided to pursue music as a hobby and not take it too seriously because without "talent", I'd never be able to do much with it.

Now, many years later, I realize that was complete crap and the teachers who thought they could reliably recognize "talent" were way out of their depth.

[Mister Acrolite]

A friend wanted to be a fighter pilot more than anything else in the world and was rejected by the military.  He got his glider licence, his pilot's licence, went to university to study math and meteorology, did all sorts of exercises to improve his hand-eye coordination, and learned what the screening tests involved and practiced the skills required in order to become "test smart".

He went from being "untalented" to commanding the Canadian military's aerobatic team and then flying 50 missions in Bosnia.  If that's not an "expert", I don't know what is.

So there's a situation in which a lot work turned an "untalented" candidate, as assessed by experts, into a "talented" person who became an expert.

I, on the other hand, accepted that I was musically "untalented" and decided to pursue music as a hobby and not take it too seriously because without "talent", I'd never be able to do much with it.

Now, many years later, I realize that was complete crap and the teachers who thought they could reliably recognize "talent" were way out of their depth.

To be blunt, it sounds like your friend wanted it more than you did. In my experience, people who are really passionate about something they want cannot be deterred by people who try to talk them out of it.

To me, it's kind of a litmus test. If somebody can talk you out of trying, you don't want it bad enough.

There's nothing wrong with NOT having that kind of passion, by the way. You don't have to have an unquenchable desire to play professionally to derive lots of pleasure from music. But simple discouragement is seldom enough to stop somebody who is truly passionate about his pursuits.

[Chris Whitten]

To be honest I never listened to the teachers at school.
I didn't care whether I was told I was talented or not, I was just doing it.
We regularly had those career's classes where we were told to write down what we wanted to be so the careers teacher could discuss it with us.
After all the nurse, soldier, vet cards were read out my 'professional musician' one was always guaranteed to raise a laugh with the class AND the teacher.
That's life.
But I had the last laugh, because after I became successful I was contacted to join the school alumni association and I put their letter in the bin.
I don't think the concept of talent has anything to do with the knocks you receive as you are on your journey into adulthood.
I doubt the military use 'talent' as the biggest factor in choosing candidates for certain jobs (or training). They'll have a bunch of aptitude and psychological tests as well as academic examinations, all built on years of experience weeding out the wannabies from the potential aces. From time to time they'll miss a gem.
The scenario you describe happens every day. You go for a job interview and for whatever reason, they choose someone else.
Decca records turned down The Beatles.
The reason given had nothing to do with talent or lack of talent.
They didn't like the sound of the band and judged that 'guitar music' was 'on the way out'.
You get knocked down, you get back up.

[Big Yummy]

In my experience, people who are really passionate about something they want cannot be deterred by people who try to talk them out of it.

I'm starting to think that kind of passion has more to do with "talent" than anything else.

But I don't have "natural talent" or 10,000 hours, so I'm talking through my hat.

[Mister Acrolite]

Regardless of whether the message that you have no talent comes from teachers or your own assessment, my point is that if a person wholeheartedly believes it's impossible to be a musician without "talent", then they'll believe it's something they can't do.

My buddy never believed in the talent myth.  He though anybody could become a great musician, painter, pilot, whatever if they only wanted it enough and worked hard enough.

I didn't believe that, but now I do.  (A little late in the game.)

Truth be told, though, I keep seeing both sides of this argument and I don't have "natural talent" or 10,000 hours, so I'm talking through my hat.

Okay, but what I'm getting at is that DESIRE trumps talent. I'm not very talented, but I had desire out the wazoo. My parents tried to discourage me - hell, even my high school band director, who I worshipped, told me I should go into computers, because music was just too rough a business.

Screw you, was my thinking. I'm gonna do this thing.

That's the kind of desire I'm talking about. Not everybody has it. And that's okay, by the way. Desire can be a big pain in the butt, leading you to a life of hardship and sacrifice. I've seen countless relationships fail, spent years on the road far away from people I care about, I've lived on popcorn and ramen noodles, all because I had this burning desire - an urge so strong it didn't even seem like a conscious choice.

And I KNEW I wasn't very talented. Man, I practiced an unbelievable amount of hours, but still the physical challenges of drumming have always been an obstacle. I'm not fast. Never have been, never will be. I'm not a virtuoso. I don't have perfect time. My left hand sucks. But I worked hard to get as good as I could, because I had the desire.

Sounds like your friend had that kind of desire. And it sounds like you probably didn't. Because if you did - whether or not you thought you had talent - you would have gone for it. I knew I didn't have much talent. I was very competitive, and became very aware that other people seemed to have an easier time playing drums than I did. So I just resolved to work harder, because they might have been more talented, but I wanted it more.

This isn't a post about how great it is to have that desire. As I said, I've felt more like a slave to it than anything. But what I want to do is give you a reality check. It's common as we get older to look back on our lives and second-guess our decisions - the whole "Monday morning quarterback" thing. So I could see why you might be thinking, "Gee, maybe I should have gone ahead and tried to become a pro drummer."

But what I'm saying is, you would have gone ahead and tried, if you wanted it bad enough. Talented or not. Discouraged or not. You would have tried.

So let yourself off the hook. You didn't make a mistake. You made the right choice, based on what was important to you. You shouldn't have any regrets.

In the meantime, you can still enjoy drumming - there's always room to grow as a drummer, and there are always opportunities to play. Will you become the next Steve Gadd? No, I feel pretty safe saying you won't. But don't feel bad - neither did I.

You were true to yourself back then, whether you realize it or not. You have nothing to regret. So don't beat yourself up trying to re-write history.

Hope this is helpful - that's the spirit in which this lengthy post is intended.

[Chris Whitten]

As I said, I believe in talent as a positive force.
In my mind you don't have to be 14 year old Tony Royster jr or the next Gadd to be talented.
Having heard Mr A, I can't imagine him thinking he wasn't that talented to begin with and I'm sure TMe was the same.
If you can hammer out the drum part to some cover songs at an early age, when other kids show no co-ordination, you're talented IMO.
And I agree with the no regrets comment too.
I've had many difficult decisions to make in my life, and more often than not made a wrong turn. But was it wrong, as Keith points out?
I admit I do look back on certain episodes with regret, but I know that's unhealthy and I try not to dwell on the what ifs.

[Mister Acrolite]

I'm not dismissing talent. I wish I had more! But my approach was to make up in work ethic what I lacked in talent.

I may not have had talent, but I had passion. (Plus I make really weird faces when I play - that has to count for something, right?)  ;)

[Big Yummy]

According to the people who have researched the 10,000 hour theory, "experts" consistently under estimate their own abilities.