What's your opinion on having students memorize drum beats/grooves?

[DoubleC]

I recently had a conversation with a fellow drum instructor and he mentioned he has all of his students memorize the drum beats/grooves out of the book they work on. 

Initially, I thought, "that's crazy talk". 

But a couple of my own students mentioned they were "jamming" with some friends and they found themselves playing the same beat over and over again.  My initial response was, "Hmmmm, were you listening to the bass player and/or the other musicians or more at yourself?".  And both said they were listening to the other musicians but they couldn't remember any of the grooves they've been working on for the last 6-months. 

To me that says, they really have internalized any of that stuff.

So I'm wondering if there could be any truth to having them memorize certain beats/grooves?  What could it hurt if they did?

cc

[NY Frank]

Your post made me try to recall what my teacher did with me 35 odd years ago.

We did tons of beat/groove work, but - I don't think he made me *memorize* them.  He *did* make me memorize certain styles by name.  But beyond that, we didn't.

How do you get a student to memorize and then recall beats?  Do you just ask them to "play page X" of a book?

[Chris Whitten]

I recently had a conversation with a fellow drum instructor and he mentioned he has all of his students memorize the drum beats/grooves out of the book they work on. 
Initially, I thought, "that's crazy talk". 

Hmm, this is an interesting question and I'm not really sure I understand where you are coming from.
I can see you don't want students to learn things parrot fashion and simply regurgitate them later without any thought put into it. However, I can't really understand learning an instrument used in popular music without building up a repertoire, or a memorized kit bag of useful riffs and grooves if you will to use in day to day playing.
I can't imagine being a pop/rock drummer and approaching every piece of work as if it's the first time. Taking basic building blocks like rudiments and constructing usable drum patterns in song form from a thought process based on technical ability.
No.
You learn as many basic grooves and fills as possible in your early years and call on that memory bank for ever more (adding to it as you go along).
I have fusion grooves and fills memorized, Van Halen style hard rock parts, Motown style parts, funk, indie, etc, etc....
People say something has a bit of a 'Bo Diddley' feel and you call on your memory of having worked through this feel in times past. You don't listen to the song and construct something new from scratch. Likewise, the 'Pretty Woman' beat. You know a quarter beat snare pattern with 8's on the hi-hat and off beat bass drum (to suit the song) is what is called for.
To be clear, I'm sure drummers like Manu Katche and Steve Gadd take a less memorized approach to drum playing, and try to add something individual and unique to every song they play, but I'm also sure they can tap into a memory bank of grooves and fills they picked up over the years.
Shorthand aural cues and memorized feels and fills are how I operate every day.
So I guess we have different philosophies, or I'm doing it wrong, or I misunderstood the question.  ;D

[David Crigger]

CC - I think what your students aren't doing - and what you may need to lead them to - is the essential work of connecting the technique behind the grooves in the books with playing along with real, live music from recordings. Maybe you're assuming they're doing that - I know I would. But from reading forums the last few years I'm constantly amazed how much I read comments "What do you mean - play along with CD's?"  :o

Obviously I think this ties in with what Chris is talking about as well and yet is consistent with your "That's crazy talk" as well. To explain - I agree "crazy talk" to be memorizing "grooves" from books. "Grooves" from books are exercises, no matter how useful they maybe - they are only building block exercises. The "grooves" to memorize are from recordings - they aren't just drum patterns, they also have musical context. A student of drumming memorizes the pattern AND the context - weaving them with other grooves into a fabric of vocabulary that can then be applied to other music they encounter while playing or jamming.

And I honestly don't think a teacher can hand hold a student through the actual acquisition of vocabulary - as it is such a personal quest, one fueled by each player's growing awareness and tastes. The teacher's role being rather to layout a foundation of skills to facilitate this growth - basically unravel and help with the technical mysteries, to help move the process along.

But it sounds like your students need to be clued in to the work that THEY'RE supposed to be doing - if they want to become really good drum set players. Absolutely essential work - I can't see how one could actually become a musically effective drummer without  exploring that relationship with a large body of music.

It would be like trying to write a novel having only read grammar, spelling and writing instructional books- yet without ever having read a bunch of novels.

Anyway - so I agree with both you and Chris - there is a TON of memorizing to be done, but not, as a general rule, exercises out of books.

David

[NPYYZ]

I'm a self taught drummer for the most part. I did take lessons many years ago when I was first starting out for a couple months just to learn odd time beats and such. My teacher would write everything out but I would always ask him to play it. I never had any interest in reading so I'd have him play the exercise then I would have it in my head and I then could play it. Everything I've ever learned on the drums is from memory, listening, absourbing, then playing it back myself. This has help me greatly over the years playing in cover bands. I've never had a problem learning any song and playing it just as it was recorded, well as long as my skills were up to par . So memory has been a benifit to me.

[Mister Acrolite]

I think it comes down to not just having your students work on exercises, but also on playing SONGS.

Once my students had enough facility on the instrument, I always encouraged them to bring in recordings of songs they wanted to play along with. Then we'd dissect the song together, learn the beats, the trouble spots, etc.

Bottom line - I think drummers acquire and retain a "groove vocabulary" more from the songs they learn than from the exercises they work on in books. But both are important components for them to work on.

[Chris Whitten]

Thanks guys.
You cleared up my thoughts and explained it better than I did.
:)

[Todd Knapp]

I think it's important to memorise grooves, rhythmic passages, etc. and I have all my students do it with some of the material we work on. I even go so far as to randomly turn their pages around or take them away altogether while they're playing grooves they've been working on for awhile to force them to play from memory/ear. I do this for two chief reasons:

1) To ensure that my students aren't over-reliant on written notation to guide their ideas and movements. That is, so that it's coming from inside and not outside. As Jim Blackley said to me, "get ye nose oot a tha booke, lad..."

2) So that we can free up some precious attention and refocus it on other aspects of performance, like specific technical matters or - most importantly - the sound and feel they're generating.

I completely agree with the sentiments above that it isn't desirable to have students simply parrot parts from books when they're playing with other musicians, but I think we have to admit that's how it often works in the beginning. We're bound to "go with what we know". What I try to do is move from mere reading and book study to musical application to prepare them for those circumstances. Play-along systems like Tommy Igoe's books are great for this, though I don't just use his recommended grooves and variations. I make lists of grooves that we've learned that could be applied to the different tracks. At first I have them use some of my suggestions with the track, and always from memory. I don't want them reading, but listening and reacting to what's happening around them. After that, I encourage them to come up with parts on their own that they think work. This opens up the crucial conversation about musical structure, the drummer's role within the band, etc. This (hopefully) gets them thinking critically about their musical choices. From there, it's an easy leap to get them doing the same for songs they hear on the radio, etc.

After that tangent... For this all to work the way I envision, they have to have a certain amount of material memorised and - perhaps more importantly - digested, so they can use it at will.

[Chris Whitten]

I used to be able to memorize some classical percussion parts.
The youth orchestra I was a member of used to perform short contemporary suites and we'd rehearsed them so much if you'd taken my music away I could still play them.

One thing I wonder if CC Drums was thinking about is the use of the ear and memory instead of reading skills.
This can be a bad thing, especially for a student.
I took some students for a class in song performance.
They were given the opportunity to prepare the song with photocopied charts and an MP3 of the song. I only realised some of the drummers weren't reading the chart when I wanted to change the ending of the song and many of them consistently failed to nail it, even after I'd made them notate the change on the part, or written it on the part for them myself.
My conclusion, if you are given the opportunity to learn to read as part of a course or tuition, you are cheating yourself if you pretend to read, but are really memorizing the drums aurally.

[TheSpindoctor]

From a standpoint of actually being taught, my teacher has been teaching me beats, so i guess I have memorized them.  I have only memorized them by practicing them, I have never sat down at the drums with the intention of memorizing them.  That being said,  I think if you are taught a beat, you will probably memorize it just by practicing it to get it right! 

And the beats that he has taught me (many latin and funk grooves) have helped me improve exponentially!

[Todd Knapp]

I used to be able to memorize some classical percussion parts.
The youth orchestra I was a member of used to perform short contemporary suites and we'd rehearsed them so much if you'd taken my music away I could still play them.

One thing I wonder if CC Drums was thinking about is the use of the ear and memory instead of reading skills.
This can be a bad thing, especially for a student.
I took some students for a class in song performance.
They were given the opportunity to prepare the song with photocopied charts and an MP3 of the song. I only realised some of the drummers weren't reading the chart when I wanted to change the ending of the song and many of them consistently failed to nail it, even after I'd made them notate the change on the part, or written it on the part for them myself.
My conclusion, if you are given the opportunity to learn to read as part of a course or tuition, you are cheating yourself if you pretend to read, but are really memorizing the drums aurally.

That's a good point, Chris. Balance is essential, because - if my own professional experience is any indication - both skills are necessary. I've been concerned with this question for the past few months because I inherited a number of students who had largely been trained aurally and reading had not been emphasised. I quickly figured out that they had little to no conception about some basic theory and notation principles. What I've tried to do in those cases is reverse engineer their reading from their playing. That is, I take grooves they've learned aurally, and then we go through how such grooves look when written down and establish some principles.

The process I use on my beginners ensures that they're reading first, and then memorising what they've read. I do demonstrate grooves, but usually I force them to use prior reading experience to decipher a new groove. If they hit a snag, we discuss the reading. Only after they can read the material successfully do I take the music away and have them play by memory/ear.

[Todd Norris]

My take is similar, but let me articulate it anyway:

I work my students through books to learn beats and patterns, more specifically - small chunks that I call tools or drumset rudiments.  The goal is to "own" them, not just play them, so that any of the little pieces can be inserted at will as they play music. 

I get them playing along to simple tunes fairly soon in the process.  Then once they "own" some amount of these tools, I get them to use them in a musical context by playing along to music where they would be appropriate.  I also show them where many tools appear in songs.  Meanwhile I also point them to a lot of music to listen to so that they can be exposed to more than just what's on the local radio.

The hardest part is convincing the young student to take the time to really own the curriculum.  A few of my students are at that point where they insert the tools at will when the music calls for it.  Now it's time to expand their tool kit.  As for the others...  I've gotta find new ways to inspire them and motivate them. 

[Chris Whitten]

The hardest part is convincing the young student to take the time to really own the curriculum.  

Interesting. What does that mean exactly........ they want to quickly move on after learning a groove say, without really gaining command of that groove first?

[DoubleC]

I used to be able to memorize some classical percussion parts.
The youth orchestra I was a member of used to perform short contemporary suites and we'd rehearsed them so much if you'd taken my music away I could still play them.

One thing I wonder if CC Drums was thinking about is the use of the ear and memory instead of reading skills.
This can be a bad thing, especially for a student.
I took some students for a class in song performance.
They were given the opportunity to prepare the song with photocopied charts and an MP3 of the song. I only realised some of the drummers weren't reading the chart when I wanted to change the ending of the song and many of them consistently failed to nail it, even after I'd made them notate the change on the part, or written it on the part for them myself.
My conclusion, if you are given the opportunity to learn to read as part of a course or tuition, you are cheating yourself if you pretend to read, but are really memorizing the drums aurally.

In my student's jamming situation, I was actually hoping that he would be responding to the player's around him based on what he's been learning from his lessons.  Maybe he's not at a level to do that yet? 

If I understand your statement regarding "use of the ear and memory instead of reading skills", I'm hoping that my students would be able to do both - use their ears while reading if it is a reading type of situation.  I think there's the reverse also.  Like today, I was in a situation today where the worship leader made some last minute changes right before it was time to play the song.  No time to notate the change but we had to listen to not go to the bridge but go to the chorus instead. I know most young students may not be in a situation like that but I think being able to recall the beat/groove on the "fly" is important as well.  I don't know maybe that's more of an experience kind of thing. 

Also.....I've been talking to guitar and piano teachers to see if they have their students memorize scales.  Some do and some don't.  One teacher indicated most of his students do not see the benefit of memorizing scales (exercises) and wished they could foresee the benefit.  Another teacher made a point that the exercise of memorizing scales killed some of her student's enthusiasm for learning and learning songs, from her experience, seemed to be the thing that motivated her students.

So this lead me to think........and this may be another thread.....I don't know.  Is it then better to teach songs versus learning "exercises" from books?

c 

[Chris Whitten]

Not being a teacher I find this all a bit confusing.
I guess in the end students need to be able to learn new things by reading, and also be able to repeat things from memory.
I can read, but most of the stuff I've done in my career has been from memory - and quite often picked up by ear.
With regards to student development, I think early on they will be quite set in their ways, unable to think on their feet and adapt on the fly. That's perfectly normal. They are probably thinking about what each limb is doing too.
Once this all becomes second nature they'll hopefully see the benefit of listening and adapting to changes, even as they are playing a piece.
Finally, I always thought it was good to memorize scales.
Melodic instrumentalists use their knowledge and memory of scales to improvise over a chordal sequence.

[David Crigger]

Interesting. What does that mean exactly........ they want to quickly move on after learning a groove say, without really gaining command of that groove first?

I think that is real common. And I think a real balance needs to be struck in dealing with it. Just like in school, where in US we learn US history in elementary school, and again in high school and for many, again in college (I'm most places do something similar). Now a lot of the same material is covered all three times - but each time the level of detail, depth and nuance is increased - with each level being appropriate to the age and other learned skills of the students involved.

Same thing,  I think with drum students, things seem to go best when a well-rounded beginner is create - who can then move to becoming a well-rounded intermediate, etc. By well rounded - I mean a smattering of rhythmic, reading, memorization, technical mechanics, and musicality skills attained all the first level before the student moves to the next level up.

And it seems to me the best way to do this is basically all at the same time. This way no one aspect of the process - if disliked - is completely overbearing. And it works so well, because so many of the various skills are so interdependent anyway.

So Todd, I'm not sure if that's the worst thing in the world if you are reasonably touching on a bunch of material. Sure you don't want to teach bad habits - but as repertoire goes, for most students, this is only round one - so much gets looked at again later, and again later.

David

[Giraffe Drummer]

    I think that practicing playing and practicing reading are two different things. Unless I'm working on reading, I NEVER look at a piece of paper. If I need to memorize it, I do so as quickly as possible, and then get down to the serious work of making the idea sound as good as Gadd. If I'm in practice mode and listening to myself, I don't want any distractions ie. having to look over to see what comes next. If I have to look at the page even for a milli-second then I've lost my concentration, my meditation.

[Chris Whitten]

If I have to look at the page even for a milli-second then I've lost my concentration, my meditation.

Not losing your mind set is another thing to practice then.
(Sorry for being provocative and picking you up on that).

I know what you mean about really zoning in when practicing. However, it bears mentioning that if any of us sound different when playing with and without music, we need to work on our playing-with-music proficiency.
I know I need to do that.

[Matt Self (Gaddabout)]

Bottom line - I think drummers acquire and retain a "groove vocabulary" more from the songs they learn than from the exercises they work on in books. But both are important components for them to work on.

This is the best comment in the thread, I think. And anyone from my generation probably went through a period where they could only hear Tom Sawyer in any new song/jam situation.

True of any language: You don't learn it until you're thrust into the culture and speak it -- both formally/academically and casually. You simply cannot learn how to write or speak from a book. That's just getting you started systematically to give you hints and clues as you learn in actual practice.

[Todd Norris]

Chris, I meant both that they want to move on before they own the material and that it can be hard to motivate the kids to practice hard. 

Two reasons I relate to are:

1) that younger people today tend to not want to take the time to perfect something and to learn the finer nuances of something.  I see this all the time in the business world.  In days past, people were expected to grow slowly throughout their careers and move up once they are very seasoned.  Today, if someone does something once, they feel like "I did that, now what can I do?"  Lots of initiative, but not taking in the finer points of the skills.

2)  The second reason relates to my approach to working with kids.  I don't make them do rote exercises and all technique work before they get to do "fun" stuff like drum set beats and drum fills, or even exploration time.  It's like going to school in that they will have 3-5 subjects going at all times.  Doing the "fun" stuff at the end of the lesson helps to focus them to get through what I want to cover in the reading/technique etc.   Plus, even a beginner of only a month or two will be playing basic drum grooves.  THAT'S what excites the kids and keeps them coming back IMHO.   I've had good results by doing that.  Like David said, I take them up a notch all across the board (reading, technique, grooves), then work on moving up another notch all across the board.  Often times, each portion compliments another section and they end up getting help in other areas without even knowing it.