Vinnie anybody

[frankbriggs]

Discussed Vinnie's playing with FZ with my drum teacher very recently. (As a matter of fact we do that every lesson  :-\. ) I made an assertion which he agreed upon. Bozzio and Wackerman were from a rhythmical and technical point (more than) capable of playing his music. But Vinnie went beyond that. A prime example is the shut up 'n play your guitar album. A lot of the song are polyrhythmic and polymeter explorations between FZ and VC. I haven't heard that kind of interaction (yet) between FZ with Bozzio or Wackerman. Steve Vai made transcriptions of their playing from that record.

Don't get me wrong here, that I think the one is better than the other. I think FZ and VC were a match made in heaven. ;D Also consider Weckl as the "perfect" C. Corea drummer.  


What do you think? Any comments?

Apples and Oranges..
I actually like Chad the best with FZ.. it doesn't mean that he was in fact the best only that I like it the best.
I know Chad a little, he used to be my landlord until I bought this place from him. He would be the first to tell you that he can't compare with Vinnie or Terry. I disagree.  The question would be on what criteria would this be judged? Musically or technically? 

In my opinion it comes down to making music  I enjoy the fact that they have such unique and recognizable voices. They all brought a lot to the table in Zappa's band and yes Vinnie is a freak of nature genius no doubt.

[Doug Tann]

Re: Weckl the perfect Corea drummer..for the Electric Band...no arguments..Three Quartets....Steve Gadd....Nite Sprite..Steve Gadd....Leprechaun...Steve Gadd..Lenore...Steve Gadd....Humpty Dumpty...Steve Gadd

And let's not even mention R.T.F. (Although Steve Gadd was the original drummer in Return To Forever)

It's all still good

Cheers

Doug

[Matt Self (Gaddabout)]

Also consider Weckl as the "perfect" C. Corea drummer.

I dunno. Corea may feel that well, but I always felt like Gadd and Brechtlein had a more natural understanding of the music. Weckl was just being Weckl on those CDs, which is sort of like saying Superman was just being Superman.

Vinnie w/Chick & Tooch Live at the Tokyo Blue Note ... now that is some Warp 12 Vinnie right there. I never felt like Vinnie was much of a swinger until I saw that footage. That just blew me away and I can't believe that was never released in the States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8CDtEVNFNc

[Doug Tann]

Vinnie Swings his ass off..in addition to the Chick/Blue Note thing that Gaddabout alluded to........

Paul Anka: Rock Swings
Quincy Jones: Basie & Beyond
Wayne Bergeon: Plays Well With Others

Bunny Brunnel: Dedication (Check out Pinocchio!!!!!!!!)

Nothin but love for Vinnie

[Erk]

I dunno. Corea may feel that well, but I always felt like Gadd and Brechtlein had a more natural understanding of the music. Weckl was just being Weckl on those CDs, which is sort of like saying Superman was just being Superman.

Vinnie w/Chick & Tooch Live at the Tokyo Blue Note ... now that is some Warp 12 Vinnie right there. I never felt like Vinnie was much of a swinger until I saw that footage. That just blew me away and I can't believe that was never released in the States.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8CDtEVNFNc

Dude I cant disagree with you more. Have you seen the Chick Corea Elektric Band Live at Montreux 2004? I cant believe the stuff he's doing. I searioulsy feel he has an amazing grasp on the music.

[Todd Knapp]

Vinnie Swings his ass off..in addition to the Chick/Blue Note thing that Gaddabout alluded to........

Paul Anka: Rock Swings
Quincy Jones: Basie & Beyond
Wayne Bergeon: Plays Well With Others

Bunny Brunnel: Dedication (Check out Pinocchio!!!!!!!!)

Nothin but love for Vinnie

It's funny, because I really love much of Vinnie's playing, largely on the poppier stuff. I have two of the three albums you mention above, and while I really enjoy them, I'm never particularly struck with his swing feel. On the Anka album he's playing all the "right" notes, but I never feel like he's really in his element there. Though, I think that some of the arrangements on that album are a little busy and take away from the overall feel, I also just don't feel Vinnie's playing propels the rhythm section the way it could in that context.

But, hey, the guy kicks my butt, who am I to talk?  ;D

[Chris Whitten]

Vinnie is one of the greats of our time.
As far as soul and understanding goes though, I much prefer Gadd and White with Corea and Harvey Mason with Herbie Hancock.
It's a game of percentages though, they are all master musicians.

[Todd Knapp]

Vinnie is one of the greats of our time.
As far as soul and understanding goes though, I much prefer Gadd and White with Corea and Harvey Mason with Herbie Hancock.
It's a game of percentages though, they are all master musicians.

I have a similar take on things, Chris.

It's like choosing between really beautiful red things and really beautiful blue things. Something just gets me about red...

[eardrum]

And let's not even mention R.T.F. (Although Steve Gadd was the original drummer in Return To Forever)

I believe Airto was the original RTF drummer.  Are you thinking the original electik band drummer?

[Doug Tann]

Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

Cheers

Doug

[Bart Elliott]

Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

I own the first Return To Forever album, on vinyl, which is also titled  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000262QW?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000262QW]Return To Forever  and Airto is the drummer. This album was released in 1972. Two albums later and the very next year (1973),  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000046YK?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000046YK]Light As A Feather  was released ... and Airto is on that. In fact the same band played on both of these albums.

The first Chick Corea album that Steve Gadd played drums on was  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000046QW?ie=UTF8&tag=drummercafe-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000046QW]The Leprechaun  (1975), several years after the first RTF album.

[lrac3]

Nope..if my history is correct..when Chick first put the band together in New York it was Gadd for a minute..then Airto and Flora with Bill Connors and then Lenny with the very young (19) Al DiMeola....But I'll double check my facts.

Cheers

Doug

According to the Gadd issue of Traps, he was recruited by Chick in 1973 to join R.T.F., which by then had already released "Light As A Feather". 

[Doug Tann]

I stand humbly corrected...even and old guy can learn from you youngins...

Thanks for the education

Doug

[Doug Tann]

Dougie eats humble pie

The first line-up (1972 - 1973)

The first Return to Forever band played latin-oriented music. The initial band consisted of singer (and occasional percussionist) Flora Purim, her husband Airto Moreira on drums and other percussion, Corea's longtime musical co-worker Joe Farrell on saxophone and flute, and the young bassist Stanley Clarke. Especially in this first line-up, Clarke played double bass in addition to electric bass. Corea's electric piano was the leading instrument in this group's sound, but Clarke and Farrell were also given plenty of solo space. Purim's vocal gave some commercial appeal for their music, but many compositions were instrumental and more or less experimental in their nature. The music was composed by Corea with the exception of the title track of the second album which was written by Stanley Clarke. Lyrics were often written by Corea's friend Neville Potter, and were often related to scientology, though this is not necessarily easy to recognize for outsiders. Clarke was involved in Scientology through Corea, but left the church in the early 1980s.
The first album, named simply Return to Forever, was cut for ECM Records in 1972 and was initially released only in Europe. This album featured Corea's famous compositions Crystal Silence and La Fiesta. Shortly afterwards, Corea, Airto, Clarke and Tony Williams formed the band for Stan Getz's album Captain Marvel (1972), which featured Corea's compositions including some from the first and second Return to Forever albums. The second album, Light as a Feather (1973), was released by Polydor and included the famous song, Spain.
[edit]The jazz-rock era (1973 - 1976)

After the second album, Farrell, Purim and Moreira left the group in order to set up their own band. Guitarist Bill Connors, drummer Steve Gadd and percussionist Mingo Lewis were taken on. However, Gadd was not willing to go touring and leave his job as a hard working studio drummer. Lenny White (who had played with Corea in Miles Davis's band) replaced Gadd and Lewis, and the group's third album, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973), was rerecorded. The first recording featuring Gadd was never released and is said to be missing.
The nature of the group's music had now completely changed to "jazz-rock", similar to what The Mahavishnu Orchestra and some progressive rock bands were doing at the same time. The music was still relatively melodic, relying on strong themes, but traditional jazz feel was almost completely gone. Distorted guitar had become prominent in the band's new sound, and Clarke played mostly electric bass. A new singer had not been hired, and all the songs were now instrumentals. This however, did not lead to a decrease in the band's commercial success - Return to Forever's jazz-rock albums always found their way to US pop album charts.
The second jazz-rock album, Where Have I Known You Before, (1974) was similar in style to the previous album, but Corea played synthesizers in addition to electric piano, and Clarke had developed his famous electric bass sound and style. Since Bill Connors had wanted to concentrate on his solo career, the group had also hired a new guitarist. Earl Klugh played guitar on some group's live performances but he was soon replaced by the 19 year old guitar wizard Al Di Meola, who played guitar on the album.
The next album, No Mystery (1975), was made with the same line-up as its predecessor, but the style of music was more varied. The first side of the record consisted mostly of jazz-funk, while the second side featured Corea's acoustic title track and a long composition that borrowed partly from Spanish music. On this and the following album, each member of the group composed at least one of the tracks. No Mystery won the Grammy Award for Best Jazz Performance by a Group.
The last album by the most long-lasting lineup of Return to Forever was Romantic Warrior (1976). By this time the group had left Polydor for Columbia Records. The album became the best selling of all Return to Forever albums, eventually reaching gold disc status. This album continued experiments in the realm of jazz-rock and related genres, and is also famous for its technically demanding playing.
After "Romantic Warrior" and its subsequent tour, after signing a multi-million dollar contract with CBS and to the surprise of the rest of the band, Chick Corea decided to change the lineup of the group without White and di Meola.[1]
[edit]The last album (1977)

The final version of Return to Forever featured a four piece horn section and Corea's wife Gayle singing vocals, and recorded just one studio album, Musicmagic (1977). The music had returned closer to the gentle feel of the music of the first line-up. However, instead of strong Latin influences, the last album features bombastic arrangements for horn section and synthesizers. Compositions remained relatively complex.
After Musicmagic, Chick Corea officially disbanded the group. Reasons are speculative, but Stanley Clarke's leaving the Church of Scientology is believed to be a factor. In the years following the breakup, Al di Meola commented on the complications of reuniting the di Meola/White lineup "I think we have a Scientology problem to deal with, possibly due to Stanley leaving Scientology. That doesn't sit very well with Chick."[1]
In 1983 the White/Di Meola line up returned briefly on the stage, but did not record a new album, only one track issued on Corea's Touchstone album entitled "Compadres".

[Bart Elliott]

According to the Gadd issue of Traps, he was recruited by Chick in 1973 to join R.T.F., which by then had already released "Light As A Feather". 

That would be incorrect actually. Read my previous post; the one just before your post Carl.

I stand humbly corrected...even and old guy can learn from you youngins...

Thanks for the education.

I know your birthdate ... you are only 4 years older than me.  ;)

Thanks for all the details you provided in your last post.

[lrac3]

That would be incorrect actually. Read my previous post; the one just before your post Carl.

yeah dude, I should have pointed out that he only joined for a brief time & acknowledged that Airto played before Gadd joining.

[David Crigger]

After the second album, Farrell, Purim and Moreira left the group in order to set up their own band. Guitarist Bill Connors, drummer Steve Gadd and percussionist Mingo Lewis were taken on. However, Gadd was not willing to go touring and leave his job as a hard working studio drummer. Lenny White (who had played with Corea in Miles Davis's band) replaced Gadd and Lewis, and the group's third album, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy (1973), was rerecorded. The first recording featuring Gadd was never released and is said to be missing.

This is the story I always heard and is now documented on the Verve reissue set from 1996 - Return to the Seventh Galaxy: The Anthology

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Seventh-Galaxy-Anthology-Forever/dp/B00000474W/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1231740449&sr=8-23

There are - if I remember correctly - two tracks from a radio broadcast with "lost" Hymn of Seventh Galaxy band w/Gadd and Mingo Lewis. So beyond recording that album, they were actually gigging before Gadd's decision came down.

For me, as much as I love Gadd's collaborations with Chick on Leprechaun and My Spanish Heart, etc., I have no regrets about 1973's turn of events as that would've meant missing out on Lenny's wonderful contributions through the four "main" RTF albums - which I adore just as much, if not more.

dc

[Chris Whitten]

Yes, I was listening to 'Hymn Of The Seventh Galaxy' and Romantic Warrior' just a couple of weeks ago and it struck me then just how they emphasized the rock in jazz/rock.
Lenny was whacking the kit and sloshing his hi-hats, they were phasing the toms and overheads from time to time, Bill Connors, then DiMeola were hitting the distortion pedal.
Of all the jazz/rock supergroups, I think RTF used the rock and funk cues a little more, other than the originator (Miles). It would have gone a different direction with Gadd I think, although he's no rock/funk slouch.
I spent hours listening to this when I was 16.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lFP-alYNq5I

[eardrum]

From the horses mouth.... http://www.return2forever.com/index.cfm

And ...Airto Moreira was at Yoshi's last week.  I wasn't able to go but I did hear him interviewed on the local jazz station http://kcsm.org/jazz91/index.php (a great station by the way that you can stream online)...  He mentioned that Chick and company are talking about another RETURN, with the original members of RTF.  That would be very cool.....

[eardrum]

Well we've gotten off of the Vinnie subject and I've been holding back but I guess it's late, I'm tired so I'm gonna add some rambling...  for me the key Electrik Band CDs are Light Years, Inside Out, Eye of the Beholder.  According to my taste Weck is perfect for these sessions.  Watching stuff on Youtube doesn't cut it for me.  I have to close my eyes, have good sound and hear the song(s).  What is accomplished in those sessions (recorded and live) is/was simply amazing.  In his latest Electrik Band CD, Corea says that group (JP, FG, EM, DW..) is the perfect one for what he was doing.  Hard for me to grasp that someone would suggest any of those members doesn't get the music. 

Back to Vinnie please!