Dream Theater Drummer Auditions

[Steve "Smitty" Smith]

If you haven't watched the You Tube series on the recent Dream Theater drummer auditions following the departure of Mike Portnoy, I highly recommend you check it out.  Bart covered this topic recently in the Press Roll.  Even if, like me, you're not a big fan of the band, I think you'll find this documentary very interesting and compelling to watch.  Seven of the top names in progressive rock and metal drumming are put to the test, and a few of them really struggle with the challenge.  Part one of the three-part series is below.  I'd love to hear some thoughts on this.

Sorry if this is a repeat post (I searched). Moderators please feel free to make any improvements to the format, links, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L609JsPFmmI#ws]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L609JsPFmmI#ws

[Chris Whitten]

Part fascinated, part horrified.
It's like celebrity apprentice for drummers.
I love backstage docos, but overall I think auditions are best as private affairs, especially for the guys who don't make the cut.

[Steve "Smitty" Smith]

Part fascinated, part horrified.

Well, that's good description of how I felt watching the episodes.  I felt embarrassed for the big name drummers that failed the complex time signature portion of the audition.  I'm wondering if the keyboard player made it too hard for them.  But if this is what it takes to be in the band, I guess they need to know. 

I don't know, I'm just kind of annoyed by this thing, and I can't quite put my finger on it. I suppose it's a mixture of the public embarrassment and my annoyance with the excessively complicated music. This is a little harsh, but I think Dream Theater is the perfect example of the truth that you can teach anyone to have mathematical chops, but no amount of training can ever give you soul.  I know the guys in the band grew up worshipping Rush.  Well, Rush has great technical ability, but they have succeeded all these years because they write songs that connect with people.  Dream Theater's mathematical  rock just leaves me cold.  But I digress....

[Bart Elliott]

It has left me, from the very beginning of the audition process, feeling that all of this is about pumping the popularity of Dream Theater ... at the expense of those drummers who auditioned.

After suffering a blow with Portnoy's departure, the band has to do all it can to stay on top. Let's face it, these guys aren't getting any younger, so losing momentum and fighting to stay in the "limelight", as well as capturing the attention of new, younger fans, is going to be a challenge.

I do think we need to be clear, however, that all of the drummers who auditioned, knew in advance that they were going to be video taped. The "reality" aspects were being captured; there were no hidden cameras.

I would think many musicians would find it fascinating to see the audition process.

[Jeff Bankston]

This is a little harsh, but I think Dream Theater is the perfect example of the truth that you can teach anyone to have mathematical chops, but no amount of training can ever give you soul. 

most of the drummers i admire arent techinical or flashy but man do they have soul. btw i aint in the same league as those drummers that auditioned for dream theater. i'm just a simple rock n roll drummer that plays with groove and feel. i couldnt compete with them and the music i play doesnt require me to play like that and i'm not sure i could. my favorite geetarist are Ritchie Blackmore, Johnny Winter, Rusty Burns(Point Blank).

[Mister Acrolite]

Wow, it's fascinating to watch the different way each audition went.

Some great drumming, and a really cool glimpse behind the curtain of a major audition!

[Rusty Beckett]

Wow, it's fascinating to watch the different way each audition went.

Some great drumming, and a really cool glimpse behind the curtain of a major audition!

I agree, I enjoyed watching all three clips.  It seems if anything can be taken out of these auditions is you have to be having FUN!  I'm sure they were all sweating it, but the top two contenders seemed very relaxed and just enjoyed the process. 

[Chris Whitten]

It has left me, from the very beginning of the audition process, feeling that all of this is about pumping the popularity of Dream Theater ... at the expense of those drummers who auditioned.

Well I agree. Maybe I'm way too cynical.

I do think we need to be clear, however, that all of the drummers who auditioned, knew in advance that they were going to be video taped.

That's something that actually bugs me more. If you really wanted to be in Dream Theater and thought you had what it takes, are you going to insist they don't film your audition and risk being knocked out of the audition process before you've played a note?

I would think many musicians would find it fascinating to see the audition process.

Yes, for the rest of us this is extremely interesting and informative.
I guess it would have been kinder to have filmed the whole thing, then after deciding the winner of the gig, edited and shown their journey from auditionee to DT drummer.

[Jeff Bankston]

DT drummer.
[/quote] oohhhhhh !!! DT !!! i saw a pink elephant wonce but it wouldnt frum drinkin, it wuz from tryin to think a thought !!! i'm an 1D10T !!!

[Chris Whitten]

Sorry, I had finger strain from typing in 10c temps. Took a short cut.  ;)

[Jeff Bankston]

Sorry, I had finger strain from typing in 10c temps. Took a short cut.  ;)

oohhhh i "think" i git it , took me a few minutes though. wow there goes those pink elephants !!!  :o  :o  ;)

[David Stanoch]

Wow, it's fascinating to watch the different way each audition went.

Some great drumming, and a really cool glimpse behind the curtain of a major audition!

My sentiments exactly.

It has left me, from the very beginning of the audition process, feeling that all of this is about pumping the popularity of Dream Theater ... at the expense of those drummers who auditioned.

Well I agree. Maybe I'm way too cynical.

That's something that actually bugs me more. If you really wanted to be in Dream Theater and thought you had what it takes, are you going to insist they don't film your audition and risk being knocked out of the audition process before you've played a note?

Yes, for the rest of us this is extremely interesting and informative.
I guess it would have been kinder to have filmed the whole thing, then after deciding the winner of the gig, edited and shown their journey from auditionee to DT drummer.

Well, it's certainly a sign of the times to see the process documented like this but I don't have a problem with it myself. And, if the audition means you agree to play by their rules, I don't have a problem with that either. If the idea of having my audition filmed and broadcast bothered me, I'd figure these weren't the kind of cats I'd want to play with anyway and say no. Perhaps it doesn't bother me because I just don't see it as all that different than going into a studio or live gig situation where I have to sight-read a set of tunes or full show and be on-the-money. Sure, the stakes were high for this audition but putting yourself out there is putting yourself out there whatever you're doing when there's one shot at it, IMO.

We saw who auditioned but I wonder if they were the only ones invited? Perhaps they are the ones who accepted after reading the fine print of the terms and conditions? It's also possible some drummers may have been invited but not interested. I looked up some figures and saw that DT's last album had their highest chart debut, at number 6 on Billboard's album chart, & they can gross anywhere from roughly $58,000 to $317,000 per show depending on the venue and sales. There's some real incentive for sure, but what if you don't care for the music enough to make that kind of commitment?

The drummers profiled certainly had the confidence and desire to give it a shot. That's interesting in and of itself.

It was a brilliant marketing move indeed - high profile prog-rock band w/high profile rock drummer loses drummer and captures the attention of the drumming world fan-base and beyond with their reality show-influenced version of an audition documentary.

It was out there on the web for a awhile before I bothered to look but once I did I was really taken by it. Yes, it was entertaining but I think it's also highly instructive on a lot of levels.

For the younger drummers who dream of a career in music it's must-see-TV, IMO, to have an inside look of what it means to have what it takes to get a high-profile gig - certainly as a player, in terms of ability and professionalism, and even more so as a personality who must be compatible with the band 24/7.

I think the participants are to be commended for their efforts and willingness to reveal themselves and I think there's a great lesson here for everyone including the auditionees - no one has it all!

Even in the prog-rock inner-sanctum of Dream Theatre, it didn't surprise me that the most musical cats were the main contenders. There was jaw-dropping drumming everywhere but some cats seemed more interested in their own parts than the songs or, in turn, the band, if you will. There's a lesson there.

Some of the participants were more known to me, at least, for their work as uberdrummer/clinicians and, short of getting this gig, still are. One auditionee made a remark I found touching - that it would be nice to find a musical home. I think there's as much an art to doing that as developing facility on your instrument takes. I that's something a lot of drummers, young and old alike, would benefit spending some quality time thinking about if they're looking a music as a career.

The audition process was very well-thought out by the band: 1.) Hit on the same three tunes that each drummer can prep for that showcase the different "moods" of the band; 2.) Run each drummer through the same progression that involves mixed meters - a staple of the band's approach; 3.) Jam on some riffs that are part of the new repertoire of the band to get a bead on the drummer's feel and creative approach.

It was really steps 2 & 3 that were the most revealing. It's fair to say some of the auditionees really lacked spontaneity and others, Marco Minnemann for example, absolutely did not. This brings up an interesting dynamic among musicians. Some musicians are more classically oriented, playing composed parts very well, always the same way. Others, more jazz oriented, can improvise and send out a flow of changing, adaptable ideas based on what's happening around them. The classic example is how brilliant Neil Peart sounds in his own band vs. say, the Buddy Rich Big Band. Neil is simply more of a compositional player vs. an improviser. It was clear to me that DT needed someone with that improvisational ability and it was interesting to me that, in general, the more "band-oriented" guys did better on that score - although not exclusively so.

It was here, again, I wondered where the likes of Vinnie or Wackerman were in the search? Bozzio? Maybe they weren't asked, but Lord knows they've been through perhaps the most challenging audition process of all. They could've blown the whole thing apart because they have all of those angles covered. Chad said his audition began with Zappa coolly asking him, "What can you do that's fantastic?"

In the end I think there's a real fact of life lesson in their selection of Mike Mangini. It looked to be down to him and Marco and it could've gone either way I suppose, but beyond Mike's incredible energy and focus in his audition, he had the vibe they wanted. I think musically he and Marco exuded equal intensity but there's another factor in play when it comes down to that. Mike knew the guys and they said he'd played on some of the lead singer's solo work. There's a Boston connection and East Coast vibe they have in common - some history. I've seen this kind of thing before - it makes a difference when you're offstage, in the bus, waiting around - and sometimes makes the difference in who gets the call. It's another lesson that younger players should also pay attention to because if you get down to the top two in an audition and you know you've done your best and they pick the other drummer - for whatever reason - then you have to be able to accept that and let it go without second-guessing yourself or beating yourself up, which I've seen happen too many times.

My congratulations go out to Mike Mangini. It really looked a dream come true for him and that's a beautiful thing to see. As for the other guys, I don't think the exposure is going to hurt them one bit and their die-hard fans will always maintain their favorite got screwed or the that the band blew it anyway.

[Chris Whitten]

Yeah I agree with 99.9% of your post.
I also agree that if I was uncomfortable with the audition process, filming and broadcasting, the gig wouldn't be the right one for me. Probably very true.
The one thing i don't agree with is that this is no different to a gig or recording.
Music shouldn't be a competition, it should be even less a competition between drummers. Auditions are a necessary evil. i would say they are an unusual part of most drummers regular existence, and therefore not the same thing as a gig or recording, sight reading or not.
Again, having said that, you are right this is gold for young drummers looking to make their way in the business.

[David Stanoch]

Yeah I agree with 99.9% of your post.
I also agree that if I was uncomfortable with the audition process, filming and broadcasting, the gig wouldn't be the right one for me. Probably very true.
The one thing i don't agree with is that this is no different to a gig or recording.
Music shouldn't be a competition, it should be even less a competition between drummers. Auditions are a necessary evil. i would say they are an unusual part of most drummers regular existence, and therefore not the same thing as a gig or recording, sight reading or not.
Again, having said that, you are right this is gold for young drummers looking to make their way in the business.

Chris,
For what it's worth, I agree with your sentiment on the audition process but I'm trying to wrap my head around how it's different than putting yourself out there on a gig. I believe strongly in what Max Roach told me when he told me the story of how he learned "you are only in competition with yourself," but that said, is it then the purely the presentation of the DT audition process that strikes you as a competition? The spectacle of it?

What I'm getting at is I wasn't really struck by any "competitive" boasting or vibe in a "drummer vs. drummer" way from any of the auditionees in the filmed interviews - they all seemed hopeful and optimistic for the most part to me, and glad to be invited.

So then, is it simply in the idea you dislike, as Bart said he felt, that the film exploits the audition?

I'm just curious because it has me confused. I'm mean I've been in situations where I've participated in that "necessary evil" as you put it, auditioning for jobs along with drummers who are respected friends of mine and, wanting the job for myself, I'd have to say it's very competitive at that moment and feels every bit like a gig to me where it's imperative to be alert, as relaxed and focused as possible and do my best.

Or is it just different to you because, as you said, the audition is unusual vs. the gig scenarios I mentioned? I know you've auditioned for the best, so I'm very interested in being clear on your take.

Thanks in advance!

[Chris Whitten]

but I'm trying to wrap my head around how it's different than putting yourself out there on a gig.
What I'm getting at is I wasn't really struck by any "competitive" boasting or vibe in a "drummer vs. drummer" way from any of the auditionees in the filmed interviews - they all seemed hopeful and optimistic for the most part to me, and glad to be invited.

Well let's not get too sidetracked on this one point, but....
I'm feeling for the Donati's, Minnemann's, the Brazilian guy, the Swedish guy, who were all discussed on camera after they'd left the room and we all now know didn't make the cut.
So the drummers in the DT video all look very positive about the whole process, but just like the Oscar nominees who don't win, do you expect them to tell you exactly how they feel? Mangini goes into emotional overdrive making the call and finding out he has the gig after all.
I guess it's just a personal journey for me.
On a gig I'm primarily and hopefully entertaining people. It's not a job interview.

[David Stanoch]

On a gig I'm primarily and hopefully entertaining people. It's not a job interview.

Bingo. There's the piece I was looking for. Excellent point & crystal clear. Thanks!

[Chris Whitten]

Just to clarify, I agreed with just about everything you've said in the thread.
Loads of good points!........ and from the other posters too.

[donelk]

I really enjoyed watching this show. I came away liking the drummers and Dream Theatre guys a lot.

I've auditioned and conducted auditions. It was cool to see my experiences match what I saw here.

[Steve "Smitty" Smith]

Here's a postscript to the story from Mike Portnoy:

Fairly recently, I reached out to the guys to try and make amends and offered to reconcile for the sake of having peace back in our lives...(plus I know how much it meant to alot of the fans...) I figured it was still possible to try and save us because they hadn't made any announcements yet or begun any public activity with another drummer...but sadly, they declined my offer (well, actually their lawyer did...they didn't even tell me themselves....)

http://www.metalinsider.net/the-drama-that-never-ends/portnoy-asks-to-rejoin-dream-theater-gets-denied]http://www.metalinsider.net/the-drama-that-never-ends/portnoy-asks-to-rejoin-dream-theater-gets-denied

[Jeff Bankston]

wow he was told by a lawyer they didnt want him back !!! the DT members could have at least had the decency to tell him themselves in person or at least on the telephone. what a bunch of ........... !!!

[Chris Whitten]

what a bunch of ........... !!!

On the flipside, they were crushed by his departure (apparently to join another band who have now dispensed with his services).
They went through the time consuming and expensive process of finding a replacement, and are now expected to tell the successful applicant Mangini he's no longer needed? I think they've shown class, although yes, it would have been better to deal with this in person and not via a lawyer. You never know what the real facts are though, there's always two sides.

[Mister Acrolite]

In that first video clip, they show Portnoy standing next to his former bandmate, and saying that being in the band was getting "stale" for him. That struck me as pretty unnecessary and tactless, and I felt awful for his bandmate, standing there helpless on camera while his life's work is dismissed as stale.

Portnoy made his bed. Now he gets to lie in it.

And frankly I think Mangini is ten times the drummer Portnoy will ever be. All told, I think everything worked out quite nicely.

[David Stanoch]

Well, I'll wear the cynical hat for a moment now with the thought that if the new CD and tour don't pan out to their expectations they can always exercise the "reunion option" down the road.  ::)

[Chris Whitten]

 ;D Last two posts.  ;D

[Jeff Bankston]

i wonder if any or all of this audition was scrpited, like wwe (tv wrestling) is. :o ;) < i like the wink guy , he's silly !!!

[Bill Bachman]

I loved watching the whole thing. Let's just say I'm now really excited to buy the new CD when it comes out. It worked out really well for Dream Theater.

[donelk]

Here's a follow-up article ...

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci-jordan-rudess-on-the-bands-future-442741]http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci-jordan-rudess-on-the-bands-future-442741

[Jeff Bankston]

Here's a follow-up article ...

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci-jordan-rudess-on-the-bands-future-442741]http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/interview-dream-theaters-john-petrucci-jordan-rudess-on-the-bands-future-442741

great interview. i see why DT didnt want to take Mike Portnoy back in the band, at least not now. it would have also ben wrong to Mike Mangini after he went and quit his job so he could play with DT. i agree with DT decision however i think they should have said this to Mike P personally instead of having a lawyer tell him(no email or text either). Mike M sure looked thrilled during the audition to be playing with DT.

[Chris Whitten]

Plenty of people have wanted/needed to take a one year break before, maybe even a little longer. A five year break is a real non starter. Where would a band be after five years of inactivity? Also, what would the other members do for five years, the management, the loyal crew?
Crazy!

[Todd Norris]

Wow, I really enjoyed that.  I didn't feel much of the awkwardness some of you mentioned earlier.  For every guy, they had a lot of good things to say about him.  I don't think any of them should be embarrassed for how they did.  They only talked about whether he was a good fit for them. 

I'm really excited for Mangini, he sure wanted that gig! 

[David Stanoch]

Plenty of people have wanted/needed to take a one year break before, maybe even a little longer. A five year break is a real non starter. Where would a band be after five years of inactivity? Also, what would the other members do for five years, the management, the loyal crew?
Crazy!

Divine Intervention?

Perhap this is where Portnoy was coming from...  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k#

[Jeff Bankston]

Divine Intervention?

Perhap this is where Portnoy was coming from...  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k#]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k#

yeah but they were on a mission from god. thats different. waiter, those men are offensive. smelly !!! they smell bad !!!