Topic: Progressive Rock  (Read 8843 times)

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Offline Bart Elliott

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Progressive Rock
« on: March 12, 2002, 09:33 AM »
I mentioned that I considered Rush (ie. Neal Peart) to be part of the founding sound of what I call Progressive Rock. Some have strongly disagreed with my assessment.

What is your definition of Progressive Rock? Site some bands or musicians who you feel paved the way for this genre.

clearseawater

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2002, 12:22 PM »
I cant say I can define it but I feel it goes back futher to the 60's(im no expert on prog atall though).

"Soft Machine", "Gentle giant" and definatly "Focus" were SOME of the first links in the evolutionary chain to this mold breaking style.

My take on this style is like many styles that seem to push through their particular catergorays (fusion for example) into new territorys (a branch from the main trunk...A hybrid of the core influence).

Prog Rock to me (in my opinion) has at its core Rock but has classical/Funk twists to its branches.

There of coarse can be many crossovers so maybe my definition isnt great.

felix

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2002, 02:48 AM »
I have a wonderful little rock ditty that we just finished mixing that I'm going to share with you all tomorrow "since I'm such a nice guy".

You know I think I've heard most of the earlier prog rocking bands but I really don't know who "started it" and I'm not sure what prog rock is and where the line between rock and "prog rock" is.  Does it have to have a measure of odd time to be prog rock?  Is swinging not allowed in prog rock?  I wish someone would tell me.

rudibass2

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2002, 03:57 AM »
 Tull
  Zappa
  Genisus
   ELP   -      Carl Palmer 8)   now he can "PLAY"

     I'm not sure what the exact qualifications for it would be . For me , it's stuff that you have to know note for note in order to play it . Face it , 90% of rock and roll can be played in one take without ever having heard the song before hand , for drummers at least .
    Progressive would be more with orchestrated and conducted parts , I'm not so sure odd time signatures would reclassify a style of music .
         A modern day example for me would be Trans Siberian Orchestra . Most call their show a "Rock Opera "
type like the Who's "Tommy".  But playing Beethoven in a rock band with a String section , to me , is Progressive. 8)

       I never called it Progressive Rock anyway back in the day . It was just hard sh*t to play because it had "lead drumming". :P

Steve_LeBlanc

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2002, 06:54 AM »
Quote
Some have strongly disagreed with my assessment.

well, just to be clear I didn't strongly disagree with you...Rush is considered Progressive Rock by most people...I just never saw them as being very progressive.

They were tight...and did have some intricate arrangements at times but to me it was all just Blues oriented Rock that wasn't afraid to impress.

When I think of Progressive Rock bands, I think of King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Dream Theater, etc.

All bands that fused Jazz voicings/melodies, Classical, Experimental Sounds and very tightly arranged rhythms in an effort to push music to the limits (or at least the limits of their own listening experiences).

To me Rush was more of a Hard Rock trio that did a bit of shredding.

Some of Rush's songs can't be considered anything but progressive but I think they're few and far between.

Rader_Ranch

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2002, 09:32 AM »
Quote
What is your definition of Progressive Rock? Site some bands or musicians who you feel paved the way for this genre.

    well, let me start by saying that most definitions i see for Progressive Rock, particularly ones written by folks/organizations touting the genre, are embarrisingly pompous high-horse snob nosed garbage (damnn you Bart for even including UK style cursing in the dreaded filter >:( )trying to place it on some glorious pedestle (sp?..is there a spell check around here?) while berating the 'simple-minded' music of the masses. complete crap. oh, and to be xtra clear, i'm not referring to anything anyone here has said to this point, but to things i've read at websites, labels, heard prog fans say etc...

    to me it encompasses any band/tune that includes a wide pallette of influences, based on a foundation ofRock (since it's in the moniker and all) and usually employing song structures that vary quite a bit from the Blues roots of Rock. musical complexity is far too often the bar by which this stuff is measured, and there's nothing that pigeon (sp? again dammite, everything looks wrong write know...and wee kneed sum funky cross-eyed smiley faces around here) holes a B grade wannabe prog band like forced complexity at the sake of a decent freaking melody and coherent song structure...to say nothing of the bad lyrics one encounters ...remember the old SNL sketches with Dan Akroyd (sp?!!!!!) as Leonard Pinth Garnell and Bad -Fill In the Blank, usually some sort of Theatre or something? one could do a great version of that based on the lame elementary level poop that passes as prose or poetry in bad prog lyrics, with unicorns, centaurs, and comically named aliens prancing about with the utmost importance...ah! and most important! sing with a fake British accent!!!! jackasses...

    anyways, someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems that prog was born, as so many other sub genres of Rock, in the late 60's. Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Van Der Graff Generator, Nektar, Renaissance, Camel, Supertramp, Pink Floyd, Focus, Jethro Tull, Zappa, a whole bunch i'm missing for sure...these guys all started in this period i believe. i can't think of an artist that i'd put in the progrock category that came from the early 60's or before....oh, well maybe the BEATLES :o

    which brings up different definitions of 'prog' itself. when trying to pick quintissential (need i say sp? again??) prog bands, as sidereal was doing as an introduction for his girlfriend on another Cafe thread hereabouts, one would probably tend towards the tried and true biggies - Yes, (early) Genesis, ELP, KC etc. but i personally find much progressive in the works of bands not often associated with prog, like Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Jeff Buckley (rip), Radiohead (they're certainly embraced by prog folk), (early) Primus, Jane's Addiction, Silver Apples, i dunno..i'll think of a ton more as soon as i hit post, but you get the point...

(John Cleese cheese shop voice) oh, i like a good tune now and again...

and later, sing along with me...shut that bloody bazoukii up!!!! or something like that..never was a word for word Python quoter ???

felix

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2002, 02:13 PM »
What is this?
ftp://http://www.greazyspoon.com/chokin1.mp3
Forgive what the MP3 encoding does to the sound.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2002, 04:16 PM »
Quote
What is this?
ftp://http://www.greazyspoon.com/chokin1.mp3
Forgive what the MP3 encoding does to the sound.

Here's what I hear ... and it's my opinion, obviously.
  • Blues/Rock (shuffle)
  • Reggae (ala white boy)  ;) bridge section
  • Progressive Rock
  • back to the opening Blues/Rock thing.
I call the third section Progressive Rock because of the harmonic changes. Definitely some fusion over tones. I personally would not consider the entire tune to be Progressive Rock.

Offline Peter Jeffery

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2002, 12:16 AM »
Hey Felix-  was that your cell phone at 1:10??    Especially liked that slick fill two measures past the cell phone!
Peter Jeffery
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Commander

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2002, 01:25 AM »
What's this then?

[url]http://www.chrisblackwell.co.uk/MP3link/Martha  ???

felix

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2002, 02:57 AM »
Definitely have to keep it "Authentic" (white boy playing reggae).  To me it sounds like a Boston tune.  Got a REAL prog rockin' tune (I think) in the works.

Cell phone?  

This is fun...BTW-that ain't rock Hollywood.  I'd classify it as bad avantgaurde.  No offense...just my opinion.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2002, 05:30 AM »
Quote
This is fun...BTW-that ain't rock Hollywood.  I'd classify it as bad avantgarde.  No offense...just my opinion.

I don't know if you are talking to me or not ...  ;D ... but I will say that the ONLY reason I even add the word Rock to the equation is because of the sounds used by the guitarist.

To me, IMO, the sounds being used can add or subtract from the style. Each ingredient plays a role in establishing the overall musical experience. I like the tune by the way ... it has some definite possibilities.

By the way, that was no cell phone, it was Felix's egg timer.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2002, 06:12 AM »
Quote
What's this then?
[url]http://www.chrisblackwell.co.uk/MP3link/Martha  

Now that's Avantgarde!

Or possible something recorded just outside Dwarf's pup tent. LOL

felix

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2002, 07:35 AM »
So funny I forgot to laugh.  I have no idea what you guys are talking about with the cell phone and egg timer references.  I also play more of a "one drop" style reggae groove when I'm doing the tune live.  But I don't smoke enough pot to be an authentic reggae player.

  I have some Avantgaurde tracks from a band called "Heretic" that will wilt your noodle.  I do have to admit I liked the quality of the recording and the sonic colors of the "martha" piece.  But my ideallic view of Avantgaurd stylings stem from Ornette Coleman's works.
I will give it credit for not being corporate rock though.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2002, 07:51 AM »
Quote
So funny I forgot to laugh.  I have no idea what you guys are talking about with the cell phone and egg timer references.  

My comment about the egg timer was avantgarde and was supposed to not make sense. Also, my earlier comment about the white boy Reggae was just to cover my butt; I've had people get so anal about the label thing that they insist on telling me that it's not real Reggae ... so I just call it "white boy" Reggae, which is just a reggae hybrid groove of some sort. I did not mean it as a slam.

Quote
But I don't smoke enough pot to be an authentic reggae player.
Are you implying that Sidereal is the bomb when it comes to Reggae? Just kidding  ;)

Dwarf

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2002, 08:00 AM »
Thus spake Commander:
Quote
What's this then?
 
http://www.chrisblackwell.co.uk/MP3link/Martha  

Hey, was that R2D2 during foreplay?  From the Arse Album, eh?  I woulda thought it woulda been a darker sound than that ;)

And Bartman added:
Quote
Now that's Avantgarde!
 
Or possible something recorded just outside Dwarf's pup tent. LOL

OK, the secret is out.  That was recorded just outside my pup tent.  R2D2 and I were getting it on in the forest (Sy Borg wasn't available) and Commander just happened to walk by with his Pro Tools setup.  Sometimes a man just craves the smell of WD-40 on his partner ;)  Next time I'll have to go farther from Commander's house when I do this.  How embarassing.

Btw Commander, you can have R2 back now, he's freshly ... ummm ... lubed ;)

--
Rob

Rader_Ranch

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2002, 09:01 AM »
Quote
What is this?
ftp://http://www.greazyspoon.com/chokin1.mp3
Forgive what the MP3 encoding does to the sound.

sounds like something one of the 80's guitar hero's would write, though they'd do it a bit faster...and cleaner  ;D ...i personally wouldn't call it prog.

Quote
What's this then?
 
http://www.chrisblackwell.co.uk/MP3link/Martha

a cute little ditty? :)

felix

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Re: Progressive Rock
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2002, 01:58 PM »
I have a tune to post and I guess it could be classified as "dirge or goth" rock...but I think it is amazing in it's texture and style.  To me, it is progressive in its approach.  Technically it's probably easy but to go out and create it yourself?  Very difficult.  I'll get it up in a day or two.

I love rock btw...it's my fav.

BAnimalG

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Re:Progressive Rock
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2002, 12:35 PM »
I really agree with Bart, that Rush IS a progressive band.  The reason I feel this way is that in my eyes, any band that has the drums as the "lead" instrument, even more-so than the guitar, bass or keys, is considered progressive.  I think if anyone were the "founder" of progressive rock, it would be none other than Buddy Rich.  He was one of the first to put the drums in the front of the mix.  Of course, Buddy had kahones the size of Idaho potatoes, not many others do.  The few that do (or did) have big ones are the ones that I consider progressive: Neil Peart, John Bonham, Dave Weckl....you get my point.  I know it is a different point of view, so I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Peace!

Steve_LeBlanc

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Re:Progressive Rock
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2002, 10:46 AM »
Quote
I think if anyone were the "founder" of progressive rock, it would be none other than Buddy Rich.  He was one of the first to put the drums in the front of the mix.  Of course, Buddy had kahones the size of Idaho potatoes, not many others do.  The few that do (or did) have big ones are the ones that I consider progressive: Neil Peart, John Bonham, Dave Weckl....you get my point.  I know it is a different point of view, so I'd like to hear what you have to say.

hmmm, well I don't totally disagree with you but I think some clarification is in order.

All of the big bands of Buddy Rich's era had the drummers in front, have you heard of Gene Krupa, Louis Bellson, etc? Drums used to be a featured instrument more often than they are now in all styles of music. I think Buddy, Gene, et al were following in the footsteps of a Latin and Cuban bands (who have always featured drums/percussion) to some extent.

So using your criteria Africans before the time of Christ were Progressive musically...at the time I'm sure it was but...well you get my drift eh?

Rush was progressive but to me the scope of their musical abilities was very limited when compared to their contemporaries.  

 

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