Topic: Might Start a War - but that's not the intent  (Read 8215 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DrumGun

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2003, 12:24 AM »
I agree with Mr. Bermuda.  

I can tell you I, on occasion, have been tokd to "play some of that crazy underhanded @$%#" at the held chord at the end of a song, but that's about it.  Guys like Virgil Donati, or Bozzio have decided to be solo artists, and in that situation they can play like they wish.  Guys like Portnoy or Beauford are in bands that encourage some over the top playing, and that allows them some freedom as well, but in 90% of the cases, I assure you, the artist paying you wants to HEAR themselves, and FEEL you.  If it's the other way around, I'm gonna come take your gig.

With Love,

Kevin

Offline JeepnDrummer

  • Cafe VIP
  • Posts: 1648
  • Ding, fries are done!
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2003, 02:42 AM »
It always amazes when a drummer wants to "improve" upon a part that exists on a record, or "make it their own." Unless there is a specifically different arrangement, or you are told otherwise by the person paying you, play the parts that were on the record! Those are the beats and fills and sounds that made the record worth listening to in the first place, and worth covering 10, 20, 30 and 40 years later! They're the parts that everyone agreed at the time sounded right for the song!

When I'm doing '60s/'70s oldies (which I love dearly,) I strive to play the original parts - the parts that made the songs what they were. I have no illusion or ego that makes me want to "better" the playing of Ringo, Charlie, Mick Avory, Hal Blaine, John Barbata, etc.

Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

On my first gig in a particular band this January, when we got to We Gotta Get Out Of This Place, and I played that little tom/snare-accent thing after the chorus, the guys turned around and looked at me like I was from Mars - they had never heard a drummer do the right parts (other than on the record, I suspect.) I have continued to work with them as a result of that, and all of the other true-to-the-original parts I played that night, without rehearsal, and without having to be told that the songs should be authentic. In a cover band, as far as I'm concerned, that's just a given.

But what it boils down to is, play the right parts. Even in an original project, figure out what works - often your first instinct - and stick with it. Players who are constantly trying to "evolve" parts (under the guise of not wanting to become stale) are actually demonstrating that 1) they didn't get it right the first time, and 2) they still don't know what to play.

Bermuda
I agree.  The way I came to this conclusion might be a bit different though.  I'm completely self taught.  While I have virtually zero skill with paradiddles and the like, I learned to lay the beat down and do fills based on the '60s and '70s bands I have on records.  That was 99% of my reference.  When I saw local bands, I knew it didn't work when the average amateur drummer put a fill in at ever opportunity.  I know I don't have the chops, but I usually know what the song needs.

Tom

Misenko

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2003, 04:46 AM »
Not a big fan of Bon Jovi but the simple fact that Tico has been with them for ages and has played on more records than you or I could ever dream of would indicate to me that he has talent somewhere.

Bands often wouldn't let you express your drumming urges in their music anyway. They want you to play a beat that they can play too. I get shouted at if I mess about too much.

Misenko.

Offline Louis Russell

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 5905
  • Will Drum for BBQ
    • Retired Pilot Examiner
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2003, 06:38 AM »
Chops?  Chops?  You want Chops?  Try playing your so called simple 8th notes for 3 minutes.  That can be one of the hardest things to master, especially if consistency means anything to you.  A musician must play what fits the music, Tico does this extremely well.  If what he was playing was not working, he would have been replaced long ago.  It takes maturity as a sideman to learn that   simple is more and understand it can also be much harder to accomplish.
No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!

Offline Tkitna

  • Gold Member
  • Posts: 659
  • I'm new to the Drummer Cafe!
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2003, 07:54 AM »
Quote
When I'm doing '60s/'70s oldies (which I love dearly,) I strive to play the original parts - the parts that made the songs what they were. I have no illusion or ego that makes me want to "better" the playing of Ringo, Charlie, Mick Avory, Hal Blaine, John Barbata, etc.

-Off the subject but when I read John Barbata's name, it took me back. My brother had a live CSNY record that announced his name as the drummer. I was young but always remembered that (if its the same person)

-Again off the subject, speaking of CSNY, I saw them a couple years ago in Pittsburgh and our seats were directly behind the stage. Jim Keltner was their drummer and to say I enjoyed myself is an under statement.


Offline nudrum

  • Cafe VIP
  • Posts: 1451
  • A man and his cymbalta
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2003, 07:56 AM »
Is there anything left to be said on this thread?
Oh yeah, I like drummers who can keep the groove, in good time, with appropriate accents, and a nice feel. Sometimes, (usually) that's all the chops you need.
I think we drummers get so wrapped up in speed and complexity that we lose sight of the music, which often consists of melody, harmony, and often words. This line of thinking takes our head out of the music and into the technical thrashing and bashing that gets dirty looks from the musicians (reference to what do you call a person who hangs out with musicians joke).
Enjoying a resurgence in jazz gigs.

Drumbo

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2003, 08:54 AM »
Is there anything left to be said on this thread?

Maybe.
A thread tittled "Might Start a War - but that's not the intent" speaks for itself imho.  It's very like, "I don't mean to start a fight; so excuse me while I throw the first punch".     :o

Offline Bermuda Schwartz

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 536
    • BermudaSchwartz.com
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2003, 08:59 AM »
-Off the subject but when I read John Barbata's name, it took me back. My brother had a live CSNY record that announced his name as the drummer. I was young but always remembered that (if its the same person)

Same guy, and he also played with Jefferson Lawsuit. Er... Starship  :)

Offline Mister Acrolite

  • Cafe VIP
  • Posts: 5936
  • I'm not bald; I'm aerodynamic.
    • k e i t h c r o n i n . c o m
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2003, 09:11 AM »
Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

LOL - Yeah, that brings to mind the thought of a bunch of Mike Portnoy fills on a Bon Jovi song - *CRINGE*  :-X

I'll admit - when I was a kid, first learning how to play, I looked at every quarter note as an opportunity to play a bunch of 32nd notes. I couldn't understand why drummers didn't fill every conceivable space with as many notes and cool chops as possible. I thought Ringo sucked.

Like I said, I was a kid.

If you don't like Bon Jovi because they don't sound like Dream Theater, guess what - you just don't like Bon Jovi. And that's fair enough. But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Play for the song. There's different kinds of songs out there. Listen, and play along.  ;D
Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

Offline Bermuda Schwartz

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 536
    • BermudaSchwartz.com
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2003, 09:26 AM »
On the topic of the right part, and my specifically mentioning drummers in 60s bands, I should point out that not every drummer in a group did play the right parts, so Hal Blaine was brought in to help make the tracks more radio-friendly (and also undoubtedly saved a lot of studio time by nailing tracks in a minimum of takes.)

Bands whose drummers were okay live, but not quite right to play on the records and were replaced by Hal, included the Beach Boys, Gary Lewis & The Playboys, Paul Revere & The Raiders, Herb Alpert & Tijuana Brass. I can't even begin to list the countless other artists whose records Hal played on, because he was the guy who knew what worked... what to play... what the right parts were.

BTW, you rarely heard Hal do anything that could be construed as "fireworks" in his playing. Not because those concepts didn't exist in the 60s, but because the vast majority of pop music didn't require it; those kind of parts wouldn't have been right.

This concept of studio players tracking records has pretty much disappeared, as drummers in groups are typically more talented (thanks to growing up with the drumming of behind-the scenes mentors like Hal) and they have a better sense of what works on songs. But there are obviously still some studio heroes like Keltner, Ferrone, JR, who know when it's time to lay down 'time', which is most of the time.

Unless instructed otherwise, whenever I approach a new song, I start out with 1 & 3 on the kick, 2 & 4 on the snare, and gradually work in an extra kick here & there until I think it's enough, maybe an extra snare if I think the song is crying out for it. It's rare that I got asked to play more than I'd already done, but I was definitely never asked to play the most complicated crap I could conjure, and I never needed to play anywhere near the limit of my ability.

Anyway... "right part" - very important. Tico gets it.

Offline Bermuda Schwartz

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 536
    • BermudaSchwartz.com
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2003, 09:41 AM »
But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Yep. While the parts may be radically different, the concept of the right part applies to both, equally.

Can there be more than one right part? Possibly, probably yes in many cases. But could a Ringo backbeat or a Bozzio ostinato - both right perhaps for their respective genres - both work for a particular song? Of course not don be ridiculas!

The right parts for a specific song will be fairly consistent to each other, not radically different.

Offline Mister Acrolite

  • Cafe VIP
  • Posts: 5936
  • I'm not bald; I'm aerodynamic.
    • k e i t h c r o n i n . c o m
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2003, 09:49 AM »
I asked a question, which some people got which was why do you play the way you do and not a personal slam on Tico or drummers like him.

I, in fact think he's a fine drummer and while I'm not a Bon Jovi fan per se, I have a great deal of respect for them and think they are an extremely talented band.

Why are you attacking me personally, you have no idea what I can or cannot do in the studio or otherwise?  Seems immature on your part not mine.  I'm just trying to have a lively discussion and now you're attacking me.

I'm sorry if you felt I attacked you. And I made the mistaken assumption that you were a kid - I've visited your band's site, and it appears you're both a grown-up and a good drummer. Your tastes differ from mine, but so what? Good luck with your band.

As far as your "respect" for Tico - I feel comments like this undermine that respect: "I can't recall any drum fills the guy does or even cool grooves.  It's practically the same thing over and over again.  His got a double bass that he has never used and probably has never had to change any heads except on his snare.  I'd like to dub him the laziest drummer in rock."

You also described his drum parts as something "just about any drummer could play with minimal skills"

From that comment, I do feel safe in assuming you've never done any pop/rock session work. If you think it takes minimal skills to make a professional sounding record - regardless of the style - then you and I are not on the same page.

Anyway, we all have our opinions. I acknowledge the skill it takes to play like Portnoy. But to me it takes no less skill to play like Ringo. I've never heard a mistake on a Beatles album. I've never heard anything I thought I could improve. And actually, I have heard some sloppy playing on some LTE and TransAtantic CDs that Portnoy played on. But he's still an excellent drummer.

For some people it's really hard to appreciate the skill and hard work involved in a work of art that is not to their tastes - whether it's Bon Jovi, Judas Priest, or Rush. I'm rare, in that I enjoy almost all musical styles. And I do NOT assume that the styles that have the highest note count per song are actually any harder than getting an AC/DC song just right. Your mileage varies. Fair enough.

Happy drumming!


Hit on 2. Repeat on 4.
(instructions found written on Mr. A's snare drum)

bentakis

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2003, 10:37 AM »
I believe if Mr. Peart was here, he'd reply to this all by saying "LESS IS ALWAYS JUST LESS"

(Mr. Peart's views do not necessarily reflect the views of Ben Takis or the Drummer Cafe Discussion Forum)

Offline Carlos Benson

  • Bronze Member
  • Posts: 234
  • I'm new to the Drummer Cafe!
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2003, 12:31 PM »
Serve the music ... and Tico does. 8)

Offline Louis Russell

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 5905
  • Will Drum for BBQ
    • Retired Pilot Examiner
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2003, 01:16 PM »
Serve the music ... and Tico does. 8)

Pass the groove please ;D
No one will believe it's the "Blues" if you wear a suit, 'less you happen to be an old person, and you slept in it last night!

benleb

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2003, 05:49 PM »
I think the song Homebound Train (on BJ's New Jersey CD) gives a pretty good idea of Tico's chops...

Not a difficult song to play but it,s some very colorful and inspiring drumming.

Offline Tony

  • Cafe VIP
  • Posts: 2193
  • Art is the expression of the self.
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2003, 06:50 PM »
I believe if Mr. Peart was here, he'd reply to this all by saying "LESS IS ALWAYS JUST LESS"

(Mr. Peart's views do not necessarily reflect the views of Ben Takis or the Drummer Cafe Discussion Forum)

Gotta go there, eh? :)

I grew up in the 'burbs of NYC and first heard BJ on the WPLJ compilation album.  Having seen these guys from small clubs to arenas over the years, trust me, Tico's got chops.  

There really is no need to rehash the smart drumming concept that has been revisited again on this thread.
The techniques, though they play an important role in the early stage, should not be too restrictive, complex or mechanical. If we cling to them, we will become bound by their limitation.  Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

Han Steevo

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2003, 07:07 PM »
I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to read through the thread.  Here's my response to the initial post:

because he's limited


Vinnie Colaiuta has played with numerous musicians including Sting, and while playing with Sting he still played perfect for the music, but made it interesting.  It's possible to play what's required and still keep drummers' interest while not showing off.

Offline Bermuda Schwartz

  • Honorary VIP
  • Posts: 536
    • BermudaSchwartz.com
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2003, 09:03 PM »
I'm sorry, I'm too lazy to read through the thread.  Here's my response to the initial post:

because he's limited

Please take 10 minutes and read all of the responses that we weren't too lazy to write, before arriving at such a hasty conclusion about Tico.

Thanks!  :)

felix

  • Guest
Re:Might Start a War - but that's not the intent
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2003, 06:08 AM »
Well, while some of you guys were bashing Tico (one of my fav. cats believe it or not) I was recording all weekend and let me tell you, I had about a 5 minute song where I had to play an 8th note rock groove.  We worked on the tune about an hour or so and I'm still not happy with it-  we have been working on this particular one about a year!

It is VERY HARD to lay down groove like Tico does.  If some of you are so talented where you can do that, more power to ya, I guess your justified in your posts.  All I can say is I am a big fan of Tico and trust me he knows art, crap, he deals in fine arts all the time.  That perfect 2 and 4 of his is BEAUTIFUL...if you can't hear it then I question your talent.

 

Drummer Cafe RSS Feeds Drummer Cafe on Twitter Drummer Cafe on Facebook Drummer Cafe on YouTube Drummer Cafe on Pinterest Drummer Cafe on Instagram