Might Start a War - but that's not the intent

[Louis Russell]

It is VERY HARD to lay down groove like Tico does

Thats what I just said Felix,  Its harder than most realize and even harder when you listen to what you just recorded.  

[felix]

I know you said it Louis and I totally agree...since I actually took the time to read thru ALL the posts.

I also have to agree with Mr. A that Vinnie C's stuff really isn't a whole lot harder for me to play than ACDC!

You know as absurd as that sounds I do both and find them both as challenging!  I think that is the weirdest epiphany I've had about drumming in a long time...  I've always thought it, but the reality of the concept keeps coming back and slapping me in the face.  There is still a lot of stuff I can't play, always will be, but I'm surprised at how hard it is to be a great groove player.

[Louis Russell]

the reality of the concept keeps coming back and slapping me in the face.  

Yep,  I am a charter member of the slap in the face club. ;D

[RHSquonk]

I grew up in the 'burbs of NYC and first heard BJ on the WPLJ compilation album.  Having seen these guys from small clubs to arenas over the years, trust me, Tico's got chops.  

I'm with Tony, had the privilage of a BJ soundcheck back in the day...and the man can play his asscot off  ;). As it has been re-iterated 1 bajillion times here...it s playing the right part for the song...or using the right tool for the right job. You can hammer in a nail with a screwdriver...but why would you want to? Tico knew what was best for the song and put it out there, end of story.

I think the song Homebound Train (on BJ's New Jersey CD) gives a pretty good idea of Tico's chops...

give this song a listen...and then try and play it...then play it everynight for 2 solid years like Tico did while touring the world. Then...you will be a Jedi. Until then...enjoy your status as an endless apprentice like the rest of us. a little humilty is a good thing.
rant rant rant..... :)
-RH =)

[Tkitna]

Kind of off the subject but I was watching VH1's 100 greatest hard rock bands and i think AC/DC was #4, but when different artists were talking about them, they mentioned how fantastic the simple driving beat of the drums were and how hard it is to get that sound. One of the artists was Roger Glover from Deep Purple and he was preaching this. I found it funny because Ian Paice seems just the opposite to me. Maybe Roger was mad at him or something.

[benleb]

Kind of off the subject but I was watching VH1's 100 greatest hard rock bands and i think AC/DC was #4, but when different artists were talking about them, they mentioned how fantastic the simple driving beat of the drums were and how hard it is to get that sound. One of the artists was Roger Glover from Deep Purple and he was preaching this. I found it funny because Ian Paice seems just the opposite to me. Maybe Roger was mad at him or something.

IMHO, Ian Paice is one hell of a groove-oriented drummer! He's very capable of doing incredible fills but when I think of his drumming, groove is what comes to mind.

Just to name a few: Stormbringer, Perfect Strangers, Space Truckin', Knocking At Your Back Door, Burn... groove all the way!

[Tkitna]

Theres no question about groove. Ian Paice is amazing and one of my favorite drummers. I was just comparing the two styles of Ian and Phil Rudd. Not a cap in any way.

[Han Steevo]

"I also have to agree with Mr. A that Vinnie C's stuff really isn't a whole lot harder for me to play than ACDC!..."

"...There is still a lot of stuff I can't play, always will be, but I'm surprised at how hard it is to be a great groove player."

I'm confused... You're saying you can play Vinnie's stuff, but then there's other stuff you CAN'T play?  What would that be, 4-limb independence sight-reading and 600bpm 16th-note blasts?  I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\


PS - Please don't get all uppity, I'm honestly wondering what you consider to be more difficult than Vinnie if it's comparable to AC/DC's work.

[Bermuda Schwartz]

I'm honestly wondering what you consider to be more difficult than Vinnie if it's comparable to AC/DC's work.

I understand what he meant, that a drummer has to apply themselves just as much to be complicated, as to be simple. The technique is vastly different, but the approach is the same.

[Mister Acrolite]

I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\

http://www.wavplanet.com/MOVIES/Austin_Powers/getit.wav]CLICK HERE  for an audio summation.  ;)

Seriously, there's more to being able to play AC/DC than simply being able to move your arms and legs fast enough to replicate the notes. There is a conviction present in drumming like that that is a HUGE part of why their songs sound so good. It's timing; it's instinct; it's attitude - it's a host of other intangible things that make Phil Rudd sound better playing those notes than Dave Weckl ever could.

There's a reason Kenny Aronoff and Eddie Bayers keep getting called to do records that seldom call for anything faster than an 8th note. When these guys play 8th notes, it just plain sounds better.

I think what Felix is getting at is that it's every bit as hard to get your simple drumming to sound as good as a topflight pro, as it is to try to learn their most complex licks.

You say you can play AC/DC. But can you play it well enough that you'd win an audition for the drum chair, playing the same parts as 200 other drummers who auditioned? You may not believe it, but there is a HUGE difference in how a real pro can make those beats sound and how an average drummer who thinks this stuff is easy can make it sound. Guys like Phil Rudd, Simon Kirke, Russ Kunkel, etc. absolutely KILL me - I wish I could play 8th notes like that!

Maybe you just don't hear it yet. But believe me, the musicians you play with - now or in the future - they'll hear it.

[Tony]

i]conviction[/i] present in drumming like that that is a HUGE part of why their songs sound so good. It's timing; it's instinct; it's attitude - it's a host of other intangible things that make Phil Rudd sound better playing those notes than Dave Weckl ever could.

Maybe you just don't hear it yet. But believe me, the musicians you play with - now or in the future - they'll hear it.

Well stated, but I think it's a waste of time to try and explain this concept to some people.  As you know, it takes a great deal of maturity and experience as a musician to undestand this concept.  It seems to me that this forum is slowly becoming inundated with players who are more concerned with quantity of notes over the quality.  My instructor used to tell me the same things and I used to blow him off the same way many people here do to us.  It was only after I lost out on several gigs to "worse" drummers that I finally understood it.  That, and a few humbling lessons with drummers such as Kenny Aronoff. ;)

[Ratamatatt]

Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.

I have the Sheffield Drum Record (vinyl) that was recorded back in 1980 and it has Jim Keltner on one side and Ron Tutt on the other.  It showcases some of their chops.  It's groovy stuff, man!

By the way, there was a thread elsewhere about starting late in life on the drums.....well, Ron Tutt didn't start playing until his senior year in high school.  Interesting.

Tom

Now, senior year in HS is late in life!  OMG!!!   :o

[Ratamatatt]

Don't make me recount the discussion in a forum that asked if Neil Peart played for the Beatles, how much better it would have been - puh-LEEZE!!

LOL - Yeah, that brings to mind the thought of a bunch of Mike Portnoy fills on a Bon Jovi song - *CRINGE*  :-X

I'll admit - when I was a kid, first learning how to play, I looked at every quarter note as an opportunity to play a bunch of 32nd notes. I couldn't understand why drummers didn't fill every conceivable space with as many notes and cool chops as possible. I thought Ringo sucked.

Like I said, I was a kid.

If you don't like Bon Jovi because they don't sound like Dream Theater, guess what - you just don't like Bon Jovi. And that's fair enough. But puh-LEEZE don't ever play a Bon Jovi song like it's a Dream Theater song - you'll just ruin it. The same way it wouldn't sound good to play like Charlie Watts on a Dream Theater song.

Play for the song. There's different kinds of songs out there. Listen, and play along.  ;D

The amazing thing is how young Ringo and the Beatles were when they had taste.  I can't say I ever hear Ringo play an inappropriate note.  Maybe that was or wasn't his call, but, I thought "It Don't Come Easy" was the natural progression of Ringo's style after the breakup and was an excellent example of the pure art of drumming.

Ratamatatt

Ratamatatt

[Han Steevo]

Well, it can be if that's what you hope to pursue as a career.

[SheldonWhite]

>Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.

Yes, I hear him play up to his ability everytime he plays one of those simple, impossibly smooth, impossibly steady, impossibly tasty tracks that fits impossibly well with the music.
I think that's a lot harder than just throwing out a bunch of licks and tricks and hoping something sticks.

[Ratamatatt]

I wish it were easy for me to play Vinnie's stuff, because it's easy for me to play AC/DC  :-\

http://www.wavplanet.com/MOVIES/Austin_Powers/getit.wav]CLICK HERE  for an audio summation.  ;) . . . .

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhhaaaa!!!!

[c. jude]

Almost didn't read this thread expecting the usual.  A couple of great posts in here though.  It is a difficult concept to convey, and some of you have done so pretty articulately.  The nuances of timing and timekeeping of this attack or that, this subtle color or that, (even in straight four) are what set the Jim Keltners of the world apart, not fast singles and flashy fills.  There are thousands of drummers that can execute a lot of notes fast, there are dozens that can play virtually the same thing infinitely better (same goes for straight four too).  If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

The tough one to take is the commercially successful song where maybe the drum part is overplayed, maybe underplayed, maybe the part was essential right, but when you play it, it just sounds tons better.  You just gotta keep smiling when that happens... and definitely count that in the blessings category and keep on plugging.

[DrumGun]

I've got to dive in here, because Ringo's been reffered to a couple of times, and 'maturity" a couple of times and "taste" a million times.  I think good drumming comes down to common sense, a love of melody, and (when applicable) restraint.  I have friend that actually asked Ringo about his maturity and taste in regards to his early develpment of (what was then) Ringo's new, innovative style of drumming and music.  His reply speaks volumes on both sides of the coin, basically saying that in all honesty he was playing at the top of his ability as far as "chops", that he wasn't terribly coordinated, couldn't generate much speed, and really wasn't sure at the time what "good" technique was.  He stated that he simply played what he heard in his head as John or Paul sang him an idea, that sometimes he wanted to do more but couldn't, or wanted to play less and was talked into more by the others.  He finished up by saying that only later, towards the end of the band, did his hands,taste, and knowledge land on the same page. So, in essence, he was never in a position to try to impress, it was always about creating something with others.

These are wonderful statements, in my opinion, because it drives to what is, IMO, the essence of being a good drummer.   Are there guys out there that claim to "serve the song", but in actuality play simply because they can't DO anything else? Of course there are, just like the guys that also talk a big game about playing musically, then @$%# all over ever phrase in the show because  another drummer is in the room.  Common sense is the key.  You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    

If your are lucky and driven enough to have develped mad skills, great.  Congratulations.  Lot's of people have.  Do you have true, honest restraint in your personality?  Do you view other drummers as a threat?  The answer to these questions and a little dose of common sense should tell you whether you are actually a drummer/musician or a hack, wasting time hitting things with sticks.

On the other side, not every famous drummer is necessarily a good player.  Sometimes, chance had alot to do with their success.  There is, however, ALWAYS a correlation between success and the blend of personalities in any given group, so many times it's the personal dynamic that really makes the difference, even more so than ability.I don't wish to start a bitchfest, so I 'll not name names, but the most successful heavy metal drummer ever is a complete hack behind the drums, especially live, but he runs the band and has a dynamic personality that binds the group.  That group would not be where they are with someone else behind the kit, crappy time be damned.

All of this should lead you, as a musician, to one thing.  Common sense.  Woodshed on EVERYTHING, not just what you're good at.  Enter every situation with an open mind.  If you stumble into a situation where the group leader says "I really what you to just crush all comers constantly throughout this song, because that's what it needs", then start cutting heads, have some fun, and shut up when that song is over.  There really is no right and wrong in our world, only good and bad, and even that is relatively subjective.  I can't make it through a Dream Theater song.  I'd rather chew glass.  Mike Portnoy, however, is no doubt a very talented player who deserves recognition.  I LOVE Knig's X & Jerry Gaskill, but only about 7 other people on the planet know who they are.  Subjective. Decide what you want to say and head down that road.

This thread started with TIco, so I'll end with Tico.  He may be at the top of his ability playing for Chompers (Jon), he may have mad skills laying in wait.  I don't care whcih is the case.  When I see an add for my local bar that says "tonight only, the Tico Torres Jazz Conundrum" I'll go and find out.  Until then, I know that he chose his path and stuck to it, and he's a far better drummer for Bon Jovi than I would be.  I think I could handle "Wanted Dead or Alive", but the puke on my snare would probably hinder "I would die for You"...

Subjective.

[Jim Martin (cavanman)]

>Do you EVER hear Jim Keltner play up to his ability? The guy does have chops, you know.

Yes, I hear him play up to his ability everytime he plays one of those simple, impossibly smooth, impossibly steady, impossibly tasty tracks that fits impossibly well with the music.

Amen. Keltner is my current hero. I want to play everything with the kind of confidence that every note is absolutely the right thing.

BTW: If you think playing fast is tough try playing whole notes with a click track that goes in and out of your headphone mix at 75 bpm.

(Help ....mommy!)

Jim

;D

[Han Steevo]

If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

I feel the same way about you guys inferring that Vinnie is just a bunch of chops--except I know it's a handicap.  You guys must not realize what he's doing or else there wouldn't think there would be such a controversy over his "many notes."  Also, Vinnie doesn't always play lots and fast, which was my point.  Vinnie has done a lot of stuff, but I don't think I've ever heard him just play boring, simple beats, and yet what he plays always fits the music.

A simple rock beat will do, but so would many other licks, which would most likely complement the music better.

I've been around music my entire life, and both of my parents still play gigs with a "band" at country clubs, parties, etc, so I know all about playing tastefully.  However, I'm still not sure whether you guys truly think that playing a simple rock beat is next to godliness or if you're just saying that to make you feel better because you can't play the busy stuff.  For the record, no, I can't play all of that "busy stuff."

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.