Topic: Where's the next big thing?  (Read 18222 times)

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Offline James Walker

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2003, 11:21 PM »
But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?

Did Trilok Gurtu come to prominence more than a decade ago?

I've been thinking about this thread on and off during the course of today, and it struck me that Trilok was the last drummer to have the "knock me on my ear" effect on me.

I suspect that, if we ever do see another drummer have a profound effect of the nature being discussed in this thread, it's going to be someone coming to the drums from somewhere else - another instrument, or another culture, or another tradition, etc. - or just someone who has been off doing his own thing for years, and we're just not hip to him (yet).  

The shared influences among most of us drummers is something that's going to be tough to overcome.  Think about trying to consciously come up with something new to graft into your drum set playing - just about anything I can think of (not that I'm a great visionary by any stretch of the imagination) has already been done.  African drumming, Indian drumming, gamelan, classical percussion, drum corps. odd meters...it would be tough to come up with something new on such a "novelty" level - any innovation is going to have to be something pretty profound.

Or it'll just be some freakish monster who comes up out of the woodwork when we're not paying attention, someone who will find the "answer" to questions the rest of us aren't even asking...
"I played with Holdsworth, Fripp, and Belew...I wish we drummers could play that differently. Drummers are starting to homogenize into the same guy, which frightens me." - Bill Bruford

Offline Chris Whitten

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2003, 01:47 AM »
Yes, Trilok came to prominence at the end of the 80's.
Also, visionary that he is, he hasn't made much of an impact beyond the jazz scene IMO.
I wouldn't put Jimbo in there either I'm afraid. He seems to create the most waves as a clinician. I couldn't name you a single record he's played on.
The drummers Mr A. mentioned all made an impact beyond drummersand drumming.
Some are happy to put down Gadd, but his playing on albums by Paul Simon, Rickie Lee Jones and Steely Dan all raised comments from other musicians and even radio dj's at the time.
I don't think it has anything to do with Supergroups. Gadd was never really aligned to one artist. I wouldn't have said Tony Williams ever played with a 'super group' either, although the Miles lineup was pretty SUPER.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2003, 06:40 AM »
Did Trilok Gurtu come to prominence more than a decade ago?

Trilok's been around for a while - he's AMAZING, no question. But I don't think he's had a major impact on a lot of drummers. In fact, I'd be surprised if very many Cafe members are even familiar with his work.

Coincidentally, I have a clip of Trilok currently featured on my licks from hell page - great stuff.

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Offline Mister Acrolite

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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2003, 06:49 AM »
Do you know any Steve Gadd licks?  No
Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves?  Yes
Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms? No
Any Tony Williams flam licks? No
Any Bozzio ostinatos? Yes
Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms? No
Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques?  No
Any Manu Katche linear grooves? No

Posting yes or no to any of those question has no impact on what I actually play.  Just becuase I can't recognize a groove or lick from one particular drummer does not indicate whether or not I play like them.  I say no in most cases becuase I would not be able to put the lick to the name, however I have heard most of these players at some point.

What I'm getting at is that it would serve you well to STUDY these drummers, and then incorporate their influence into your own playing. By focusing so much on metal and not really digging deep into the playing of other masters, you limit yourself.


I take influence from as wide a variety of drummers as possible and generally do not try to imitate any particular drummer.  As well as getting into metal recently, I have only recently started paying attention to what the drummer's name is.  I am influenced by the people you mention but do not study them directly.

And that's what I recommend you start doing: study them directly.


I also currently work with an instructor on jazz and latin rythym and continually try my hardest to expand my drumming abilities from all styles.  I most definitely do not stay tunnelled into metal drumming, but  currently that is they style I play in and try to come up with my own style of incorporating everything I know while still making my drumming fit the music.  And yes, the band I'm in are very conciously trying to create a new breed of metal that isn't just (boom-chick-boom-chick-boom-chick) at 200 miles an hour.  There is of course much more to it just as there is no end to reinventing everything with drumming.

This is good news, and shows you are open-minded. However, as important as it is to take lessons, study musical styles, drum books, etc., it's my opinion that serious drummers should also actively study the playing of world-class drummers. How they compose their drum parts. How they lock with the bass player. How they support the vocalist or soloist. You won't find that stuff in drum books, and your teacher can only open the door for you.

Take some time, collect some CDs, and study the great masters of drumming. It will help you more than you can imagine.
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felix

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2003, 06:49 AM »
Ok, I'm in a better mood today.  This was a pretty heavy thread for a monday.

I have no idea what the next big thing is or what it's going to be.  I'm just not that hip.

Lots of great insights from everyone though.

Offline Bart Elliott

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2003, 07:15 AM »
I wouldn't put Jimbo in there either I'm afraid. He seems to create the most waves as a clinician. I couldn't name you a single record he's played on.

Maybe you are right ... but I disagree that you have to be with a "supergroup" or even be playing on other individual's albums in order to cause"change", which is the premise for this thread. The question, once again was ...

Where is the next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision?

Bozzio didn't do it with the bands that he's played with ... he's done it with his solo career ... what he's done in clinics and solo performances more than what he's done on record ... in my opinion. So Jimbo could fit into this scenario, and is not disqualified because he's not playing on albums. If the drummer "blows our minds" and/or "has a unique sound and vision" ... AND ... they've done this recently, then they fit the criteria. BUT ... does he have a signature sound? Is there a "stamp" that they place on what they do? For Jimbo, probably not. He's incredible, but unless you SEE him play, you can't really appreciate what he's doing. The other side to that is, however, that the technique needed to pull off what he does is amazing. It doesn't sound special until you realize that he's playing EVERYTHING; a one man band. I can still see Peter Erskine's face, shaking his head in amazement after witnessing (as I did) Jimbo's performance at PASIC 2001.

I do think Trilok fits in here ... although he's not new. He really brought the use of drums & percussion into the same arena ... as well as the hybrid kit. The reality is that this is nothing new ... the early drumset was a mixture of what we now consider drums and percussion ... but using it to the degree that Trilok has, well, it's unique ... and certainly blew MY mind when I heard him years ago.

There's nothing new under the sun ... so it seems ... hence the vast lack of new and upcoming innovators. I think that we will see a real slow down ... and that technology will be the sole ingredient need to have any type of push forward. Having said that ... it really makes me appreciate drummers like Bill Stewart, even Stanton Moore, because their innovativeness doesn't come from huge set-ups or a dozen foot pedals. Their "stamp" comes from the basic raw sound that they achieve on minimal kit set-ups.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2003, 07:42 AM »
Where is the next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision?

Bozzio didn't do it with the bands that he's played with ... he's done it with his solo career ... what he's done in clinics and solo performances more than what he's done on record ... in my opinion.

While I agree that Terry totally bowled over the drumming world when he emerged as a solo artist, he also was a huge trailblazer when he was in bands.

With the RotoTom kit he used with Zappa and Missing Persons, I bet Bozzio is responsible for the sale of more RotoToms than any other single drummer. (I bought a set after hearing Spring Session M!)

Then, he took a total left turn, and created that minimalist electronic kit that was a huge influence on both the sound and physical design of electronic percussion instruments.

Bozzio is a freak - he's been reinventing himself, and with it, influencing the world of drumming - consistently since he was a KID. I've got the Zappa video "Baby Snakes," where Terry can be seen in his late teens or early 20's, playing things on double-bass that other drummers are only starting to learn now, 25 years later. He is sort of the Picasso of drums to me - a completely original artist, steeped in traditional skills, but blessed with a vision that takes him into another realm, years ahead of most of his contemparies.
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Offline Bart Elliott

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2003, 07:49 AM »
Bozzio is a freak - he's been reinventing himself ...

Been reinventing himself? LOL

The dude changes annually! And not just his set-up or approach, but his LOOK! I don't think I've seen him in two Modern Drummer issues and have the same look (hair, clothes, piercing, etc.). I'm judging him or saying that's bad ... just confirming that he's a freak! ROFL

I still enjoy hearing his playing on the Brecker Brothers album, Heavy Metal BeBop.

BBJones

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2003, 08:04 AM »
With the RotoTom kit he used with Zappa and Missing Persons, I bet Bozzio is responsible for the sale of more RotoToms than any other single drummer...

Maybe second in sales right after Alex Van Halen. ;)

How about Tommy Lee to add to the list?  I don't think I need to mention why...

Bleeder

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2003, 08:22 AM »
Quote
...where's the next big thing? But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?

I personally thought "Animal" from the Muppets was as influential as any of the Drumming Master's you mentioned...

Offline Bart Elliott

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« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2003, 08:23 AM »
Maybe second in sales right after Alex Van Halen. ;)

How about Tommy Lee to add to the list?  I don't think I need to mention why...

Please do mention why ... because I don't see why he should be included.  8)

clt2msb

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« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2003, 08:54 AM »
Please do mention why ... because I don't see why he should be included.  8)
<sarcasm>
Well, there were the early Motley Crue days when he inspired all of us to look as much like a woman as poss....well, not me, but, well...
Then later, around Dr. Feelgood, he had this HUGE bassdrum!  NOBODY had done THAT before....well, except Bonham...and maybe a few others...ahem...
Then he played this wild drum solo where he was suspended upside down!  All drummers ran out and attached their drums to the ceilings of their rehearsal spaces and strapped themselves in....no?  

Then he made a video of him and his hot wife that leaked to the internet, and at first it pissed him off, then he started making money from it, inspiring all male drummers that they too could get a hot wife/girlfriend...no?  maybe?  not even a little?  

 :P
</sarcasm>

BBJones

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2003, 09:01 AM »
Well sarcasm aside :) ...

As far as I can remember, he was the first drummer to really make playing more about the show of playing that the skill.  Apart from him being extremely solid and playing exactly what the music needed, all the stick twirling and yes the spinning drum cage were very innovative imo.

I'm sure others have been around doing similar things, but for me and everyone growing up with me that I knew, Tommy Lee was *the first* to make it "the thing to do".

Since him, there were many flashy drummers as well as many drummers trying new cage/rotating drumset ideas for solos.

That sort of raises another question, who gets credit for being innovative?  The person who came up with something, or the one who made it popular?

Look Mr A, 2 posts in a row and nothing about metal! ;)

Offline Mister Acrolite

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« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2003, 09:11 AM »
Well sarcasm aside :) ...

As far as I can remember, he was the first drummer to really make playing more about the show of playing that the skill.  

Not by a long shot. Gene Krupa comes to mind, as do many other drummers of days gone by.

Tommy's a good rock drummer, and an excellent entertainer.

But what he plays has not changed the way we play. Maybe he's the first guy YOU heard or saw doing what he does, but he's not the first to do it.

Yes, he's been an influence on many drummers. So has Lars. So has Travis Barker, Peter Criss, etc.

But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.
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stumpy-p

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2003, 09:12 AM »
THis is a great thread Mr. A. Sorry I'm so late!

This is an opinion based on potential. A lot of good players have an experience at a point in their career where a light comes on and they take their talents to a level most people don't have. With Gadd it may have been The Leprechaun sessions with Chick Corea. I think the listed players below are unique enough, talented enough, and busy enough to become great.

Matt Chamberlain,
Chris Frazier,
Adam Deitch,
Josh Freese,
Chad Wackerman,
David Batiste, Jr,

and...

Carter Beauford (It'll be interesting to see what he accomplishes post DM Band)

BBJones

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« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2003, 09:23 AM »
But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.

Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums.  What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel.  I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo.  That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.

So what if he wasn't the first to twirl a stick, back to my other question then of who gets credit for being the innovator.  I'd love to see some clips of Gene Krupa spinning sticks for an entire song where it was more the focus of his playing than the actual drumming...

Your point is clear, you're just not getting responses that you agree with. :)

Hey what about the guy from Def Leppard?  Innovation out of necessity.  Not sure if he had much influence on a lot of drummers or not, but he sure did create good use of a ton of electronics and pedals...

Offline Mister Acrolite

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« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2003, 09:35 AM »
Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums.  What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel.  I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo.  That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.

The one "innovation" I'll grant Tommy is the spinning cage, although Keith Emerson had done the same with a Hammond organ a decade earlier. So props to Tommy (or his mechanics and fabricators).

Beyond that, you need a firmer grasp of drumset history to argue this topic effectively.

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BBJones

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« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2003, 09:37 AM »
Well, glad to see a limited metal player like myself could get you to see something about a drummer you refused to recognize... but I guess I'll leave your thread now as per your request...  ::)

Offline Chris Whitten

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Where's the next big thing?
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2003, 09:43 AM »
You cannot be serious about Tommy Lee.
 :o
By that reckoning Brittny Spears is one of the most innovative singers today.

Offline Mister Acrolite

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« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2003, 09:44 AM »
Well, glad to see a limited metal player like myself could get you to see something about a drummer you refused to recognize... but I guess I'll leave your thread now as per your request...  ::)

I never asked you to leave. I do, however, ask you to read my initial post, and decide if your recent posts are truly relevant to it. It is NOT a list of "what drummers have been influential over the years." Tommy ABSOLUTELY belongs on that list.

But Tommy has created no rhythm, no technique, no sticking pattern, no piece of equipment (other than something that manipulates the stage he's playing on) that A) didn't already exist and B) was subsequently adopted as part of a pro drummer's vocabulary. That said, I still think he's an excellent drummer.

And I recommend you delve into the history of this instrument and those who play it - it is clear from your posts that you have room to grow in that area (as we all do).

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