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Natural drummers

Started by silenceisbest, April 29, 2004, 03:22 PM

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Carlos Benson

There's an interesting article on this subject in this months Modern Drummer .. check it out. <><

James Walker

Quote from: Commander on April 30, 2004, 04:57 PM
True, and a fair point. However, my Brother went through Music College and can't play unless he has music put in front of him (he plays trumpet).

I don't get the connection.  Are you saying that he would have learned to improvise except for the fact that he had a formal education?  Lessons stopped him from improvising?  

Lots of improvisers have taken lessons - myself included.  I've got three college degrees (which means nothing in the end, except I've got three medium-sized diplomas to cover up holes in the walls of my house...wait, those diplomas are around here SOMEWHERE, give me a minute and I'll find 'em...eventually), I've probably taken over a thousand private lessons over the years (which, again, doesn't by itself make me any better or worse than anyone else), and I just now got home from a gig where I read music for one tune, and played the rest "by ear" - including one or two tunes I'd never played or even heard before.

I'd say your brother's situation doesn't condemn the taking of lessons in general, so much as it's an indictment of a failure in the Universities of this country (his, at least), that don't incorporate improvisation into their "classical" curricula in any way - even tho improvisation was par for the course for "classical" musicians back in the day of Mozart, Beethoven, et al (as well in other musical eras)...and that's another topic for another time ("don't get me started..." - there's a big, big, big rant under my fingertips whenever we get to the topic of University music studies...)

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Commander on April 30, 2004, 04:57 PM
True, and a fair point. However, my Brother went through Music College and can't play unless he has music put in front of him (he plays trumpet). But then he wasn't what I would call a 'natural' to begin with.

Well, to be fair ... there are those who don't take lessons or go to music school ... and when you put a piece of music in front of them they don't know what to do.

I just don't see how we can make generalizations like this. Your brother failed to do the homework and develop his ear. He didn't work on improvisation and being creative. Some blame may go to the school for not encouraging it or teaching it, but we all have a mind and should know that we need to have balance in our skills. All of my students learn that you have to be able to read music AND improvise without written music. We spend time reading drum beats, grooves and fills ... and equal amount of time creating new beats, grooves and fills.

Classical music doesn't have a lot of improvisation in it; you pretty much have to read the ink. But there is a need for interpretation, etc., with the written music. Had Commander's brother played in the school's jazz band or taken some improvisation classes, he'd probably be a more well-rounded musician.

I default back to my original comments. You HAVE to do the homework. A music school doesn't make you a good or bad musician. You have to apply what you learn and take it even further. People with no formal training are creative ... so why would a schooled individual be any less? Sometimes teachers get lazy and just have the student do what's in the method books and nothing more. I've had teachers like that. It's boring and really bad teaching. That does not mean that all teachers are that way, that private lessons are that way, or that all music schools are that way.

Some of you people who have studied with me or another member here at the Drummer Cafe need to speak up! In regards to how I teach, am I telling the truth or what?  8)

rocksurvivor

i wouldn't knock anyone takeing lessons, but if i take lessons form say "Bart" do i then play like bart? we all have influences and people we admire, i find myuself thinking " i wish i coiuld play like that" but in truth some styles, i have no feel for. would lessons help there? no offense but i hate country music as a whole. as such i reallly suck at playing it, do i need lessons to learn the grooov of country?

Spike

Hi, this is my first time here. I was surfing for cases for my starclassics on ebay and somehow wound up here. Boy!! Can I relate to this discussion. I am left handed playing open style on a right handed set up. It never occured to me when I got my 1st set (clear Ludwig Vistalites) that I could set up left handed, I saw how everyone else set up, so that is how I did it. I learned on my own because my junior high music teacher felt he couldn't teach a south-paw and wanted me to learn the baritone instead. Some drummers tell me that I do some really cool stuff that they can't, which is nice . But the bottom line is I learned the hard way (and am still learning) and learning on a right hand set up has worked well but has also been a curse in some ways. Meaning I've had to reverse engineer some of the more complicated licks which does lead to some enlightened discovery at times but If I had been afforded some formal training perhaps I would have learned quicker (and more) and avoided some of the ruts over the years. I'm a freak I guess, then again, it does take a certain animal to get in this buisness in the first place. By the way, once I realized I could set up left-handed, it was to late. I had developed a power bass pedal foot over the years which didn't translate to well over on the hh which resulted in folded cymbals.  :)

topleywonder

Well, i only took about 6 or so lessons early on in my drumming "career", if i can say that. But since then i have tried anything possible to improve my playing, listen to c.d's and studied them, watched videos, i haven't gone as far as instruction books, but maybe soon. Well, what i am trying to say is that, anything helps, lessons, musics, self instructions. Some may take you longer to reach your goal, but you'll get there eventually, just make sure you aren't limiting yourself.

James Walker

Quote from: rocksurvivor on May 01, 2004, 08:12 AM
i wouldn't knock anyone takeing lessons, but if i take lessons form say "Bart" do i then play like bart?

It depends upon the teacher, and what your goals are as a student.  I could probably teach my students to play exactly like me (what a horrible fate), but as a teacher I wouldn't find that as interesting, and it wouldn't be fair to the student - even if I were the best player in the world.

...and Bart doesn't strike me as a "play it just like me or it's wrong" kind of teacher.  :)

Quotewe all have influences and people we admire, i find myuself thinking " i wish i coiuld play like that" but in truth some styles, i have no feel for. would lessons help there? no offense but i hate country music as a whole. as such i reallly suck at playing it, do i need lessons to learn the grooov of country?

Not necessarily - you could learn what is needed by working with musicians who know that style, and by listening, listening, listening, listening, to live peformances and recordings alike.  What a teacher can do is show you why certain things are done in a certain style of music, and he/she can speed the process along.  He/she can also direct you towards prime examples of that style of playing - either drummers, or recordings which best represent that style.

Commander

This is a very interesting discussion that will continue to go round and round in circles!    ;D

James and Bart, you guys being teachers are obviously (and quite rightly) defending the lessons approach, and I am defending the 'just get on with it' angle. I can only speak for myself here, but I know that had I taken lessons the first thing to happen would have been to make me play right handed cross-over style with my right foot on the kick pedal. By the time I even considered lessons I was too far down the road in my open handed / left handed kit / right handed person approach and was having too much fun just playing to worry about whether or not I was doing it right.

Just to complicate matters, I am also self taught on guitar, bass and keyboards. This shows of course, hence the fact that I only ever play these instruments in the safety of my studio where I can bluff away to my heart's content until I get the take right or call someone else. Not so with drums though.

Perhaps my Brother had bad teachers. Perhaps he didn't have the ear. Who knows. I just know that the one on one lessons route wasn't right for me.

Mister Acrolite

Quote from: Commander on May 01, 2004, 04:51 PM
This is a very interesting discussion that will continue to go round and round in circles!    ;D

James and Bart, you guys being teachers are obviously (and quite rightly) defending the lessons approach, and I am defending the 'just get on with it' angle. I can only speak for myself here, but I know that had I taken lessons the first thing to happen would have been to make me play right handed cross-over style with my right foot on the kick pedal. By the time I even considered lessons I was too far down the road in my open handed / left handed kit / right handed person approach and was having too much fun just playing to worry about whether or not I was doing it right.

Just to complicate matters, I am also self taught on guitar, bass and keyboards. This shows of course, hence the fact that I only ever play these instruments in the safety of my studio where I can bluff away to my heart's content until I get the take right or call someone else. Not so with drums though.

Perhaps my Brother had bad teachers. Perhaps he didn't have the ear. Who knows. I just know that the one on one lessons route wasn't right for me.

It's a mistake to assume that a teacher would automatically change the way you're currently playing. Some GREAT drummers play open-handed, and I've taught several of my students that way. I'd like to have taught them all that way, but most of them resisted too much, so I let them cross their hands. If you've got a way of playing that works for you, I sure wouldn't change it - I'd just help you develop it.

But to think that the only way you could develop your own style is to close yourself off to input from others is - I think - a bad mistake. Steve Smith had the same drum teacher as Vinnie Colaiuta - to me they play completely differently.

You can rationalize it as much as you want, but claiming that NOT studying with somebody makes you better makes about as much sense as thinking that NOT reading a certain book will make you more of an expert on a topic. There's no way that ADDING knowledge will hurt you.

Are there bad teachers out there? Absolutely. You've got to have enough judgment to know whether the person you're with is helping you. But to simply assume that not taking lessons is a superior approach is at the very least short-sighted.

Taking lessons is humbling. Taking lessons is an admission that somebody else knows more than you do. Lots of people have a problem with that notion - there's a lot of ego tied to the arts. Men in particular don't like to ask for help, often feeling that to do so is an admission of weakness.

But I have yet to hear a convincing argument why NOT taking lessons could in any way enhance your playing. You can learn without lessons. You can learn more stuff, and learn it faster, WITH lessons.

Bart Elliott

Quote from: Commander on May 01, 2004, 04:51 PM
James and Bart, you guys being teachers are obviously (and quite rightly) defending the lessons approach, and I am defending the 'just get on with it' angle. I can only speak for myself here, but I know that had I taken lessons the first thing to happen would have been to make me play right handed cross-over style with my right foot on the kick pedal.

I just know that the one on one lessons route wasn't right for me.

I understand ... and I don't look down on anyone who takes the path you've chosen. You have to do what's right. But again, I have to say that not every teacher would make you put the right hand on the HiHat, right foot on Kick.

I've taught students who have never played before. In fact, I just finished teaching three seminars with many "want to be" drummers. When I start someone out, I find out which side is their dominant side. From there, I give some guidance to help them choose which limb should go where. I personally play every way you can imagine. Right or left hand on HiHat; right or left foot on Kick.

It seems that the student very quickly lets you know what feels comfortable to them and what doesn't. Not every "right hand dominant" individual has chosen to cross-over and put the right hand on HiHat, or right foot on Kick. Some prefer the open-hand approach with left hand on HiHat and right foot on Kick ... for example. Some prefer it just like Commander does, and are also right-handed playing open-handed with left foot on Kick. I think it's GREAT for players NOT to cross-over. I know that MANY teachers also believe this and encourage it to anyone who can handle it.

I'm sorry that Commander feels that the majority of teachers would have wanted to put him in a mold. Perhaps in the region or time era he grew up in, that was a popular approach. I just know that teachers of today are FAR more educated and knowledgeable about the body, how it moves, and the advantages of doing what comes naturally to each individual and their physical make-up.

I have never ever made a student change what they were doing. If it works for them, fine. The music is what is important and is the end goal. The only time I would encourage change is when it was clear they were uncomfortable and/or their approach was not working for them. I would show another way to try, encourage them to at least consider it, but never tried to get them to play or sound like me. I try to draw out who they are and what they have to say on the instrument. I give guidance and mentor those who desire it.

Congratulations to all of you who have the discipline to teach yourself and truly master the instrument. You are successful because of your diligence and hard work.

Drummz

Amen to that Keith! I agree totally.

I myself have been thinking about taking up lessons again. I think it could help me find better ways to improve my weaknesses. Plus I am not the most disciplined person in the world so setting that time aside to concentrate on a specific thing can in no way be considered bad or limiting myself.

Commander

Quote from: Mister Acrolite on May 01, 2004, 05:10 PM
You can rationalize it as much as you want, but claiming that NOT studying with somebody makes you better makes about as much sense as thinking that NOT reading a certain book will make you more of an expert on a topic.

I don't think I've ever claimed to be better than anyone else. Sorry if it came across that way. The book analagy is a bad one by the way. There are many books written (I'm not talking drumming here) that completely contradict each other. There is a lot to be said for doing it rather than reading about it!  :)

Quote from: Mister Acrolite on May 01, 2004, 05:10 PM
But to simply assume that not taking lessons is a superior approach is at the very least short-sighted.

Steady on old chap! Don't think anyone mentioned that one approach was superior to another ... perhaps I should get my eyes tested?  ;D

James Walker

Certainly, there are many different ways to learn, and not everything works the same for every individual.  When this subject has come up in the past, I've been quick to state my opinion that lessons aren't a prerequisite to becoming a great musician, and I stand by that belief.  

My only objection is when I see references to some of the (what I consider to be) myths about taking lessons, presented as fact:  i.e., you'll end up sounding exactly like your teacher, it'll stifle your creativity, etc.  IMHO that's a bunch of bunk...unless you've hooked up with a bad teacher, which isn't a failing of lessons in general, it's the fault of that particular teacher.

All I know is, the best teachers I've had (and I've been blessed with about a dozen wonderful "primary" teachers on various instruments, at various times, over the years) have all encouraged my own creativity, and a pursuit of my own "path" as a musician - even (especially!) when that path was different from theirs.  One teacher in college told me in my junior year, that by that time as his student, I had learned the core concepts that he tries to impart to his students (problem solving, and how to teach yourself - ironic, huh?), and if I decided that I'd be better off transferring to another college (and another teacher), he'd help out in any way possible - we could spend that last year working on repertoire, but in his estimation I was ready to move on if I so chose.

I've mentioned this in other threads, but my idea of a great teacher is one who teaches his students to teach themselves - a teacher that will seemingly put himself out of business one student at a time, if you will.  Teachers who only teach someone "how to play the (insert name of instrument here)" are doing less than half the job, IMHO.

Commander

Quote from: Bartman on May 01, 2004, 05:14 PM
I'm sorry that Commander feels that the majority of teachers would have wanted to put him in a mold. Perhaps in the region or time era he grew up in, that was a popular approach.

There you have it ...

Quote from: James Walker on May 01, 2004, 05:32 PM
My only objection is when I see references to some of the (what I consider to be) myths about taking lessons, presented as fact:  i.e., you'll end up sounding exactly like your teacher, it'll stifle your creativity, etc.  IMHO that's a bunch of bunk...unless you've hooked up with a bad teacher, which isn't a failing of lessons in general, it's the fault of that particular teacher.

Quite agree.

silenceisbest

I wonder where people get these weird misconceptions about lessons; I've never considered taking a lesson (until now), but I have never looked at them with distaste or tried to rationalize not taking them with reasons such as that. They just were my cup of tea.

That being said, I'm rather excited to be taking lessons this summer because I think I will improve immensely and have a lot of fun doing it. One of the few reasons I play drums is because they're fun as hell, and you can have a grand ol' time up on stage rockin' out. So I think lessons will make me better and I'll have a lot more fun and have an easier time being creative.

Kelly Minnis

I guess it all really depends on what you want to accomplish.  I don't think formal lessons or workshops will hurt anyone, but I've known many a fine drummer who can play circles around me that don't know a flam from a ratamacue and, frankly, probably don't need to.  I think experience can sometimes be as fine a teacher as a proper instructor.  Depends on the student, depends on the teacher.

I think we'd all agree that lessons won't hurt.  Learning how to properly hold a drumstick and properly hit a drum and cymbal will benefit anyone regardless of style or level of ability.  

Commander

Quote from: redchapterjubilee on May 01, 2004, 07:04 PM
I think experience can sometimes be as fine a teacher as a proper instructor.  Depends on the student, depends on the teacher.

Exactly what I have been banging on about!  ;D

russelljd

alot of self-taught drummers that are famous have lessons later on to make there drumming more solid. and ash's drummer he said that he's tecahing himself rudiments and stuff to make his playin better.

Bob Pettit

Just a thought, but suppose you're 20 years old and got a good thing going on the drums, but as a natural, never had a lesson. Now suppose you start learning rudiments, cause deep in your heart you know there is a lot out there you can't play and you want to learn.

I would say the lessons are going to hurt your playing for a while.

They will mess with your style, your head, and you'll screw up trying to incorporate the new stuff into your playing. It takes time to burn it into your nerons, until it becomes second nature. As long as you are thinking, you are in trouble. If you think in advance, 'I'm going to play a paradiddle five stroke combination on the next fill', you are thinking too much. Where the rudiments become valuable is where they are so engrained that you don't think 'em at all, your hands and feet just do what needs to be done. You become fluid to the point where you can play what you want, at will.

So in my opinion, lessons/rudiments, like a lot of good things in life, can be painfull and a struggle. That is exactly why they are valuable. By learning them you'll be taking a step beyond the other 'natural drummers' that were too lazy to put out the effort to do something that wasn't so natural afterall. They take the easy way out, and there will always be for them a lot of drumming that they can't touch.
Which is cool too, they can still do their thing.

Lastly, I got say, don't confuse unschooled with uneducated. Guys like Buddy Rich and Dennis Chambers may never have had formal lessons, but you can see they paid homage to the tradition and absolutely mastered the rudimental foundations of drumming. You can see it just by watching them play ... they learned the fundamentals, and learned them well.
:)


rox

Hi there

I haven't had lessons too and i play for seven years now. My music is in my mind. Groove is something you have or not.

And when it comes to technique for making it easy to play what's in your head,  a booklet or something like the drummers cafe is far by enough i think..